Perimeter Highway | Winnipeg

[njaohnt]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

If it's that simple, I wonder why nobody has thought of this before?

I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I thought latent and generated/induced demand were well accepted concepts in the transportation engineering and planning professions? i.e. build a bigger road and latent and generated demand will fill it. There is lots of research to support this concept.

See the bibliography in the linked report for example:

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

The only time demand will fill it in is when a road is so congested, that people seriously taken congestion into account when getting a house. The thing is, that when you add gas tax, people will start moving closer to their jobs. If congestion keeps filling things in, I would think that gas tax is too low. The problem with leaving things the way they are, is that there are people who need to live where they live, and work where they work, and they have no option but to go by car. We need to make sure those people can get to work in a reasonable amount of time.

I think that there is a balance that will keep congestion low, between gas and congestion. When there's congestion, it means that it is too cheap to drive, so that people are willing to spend a lot of time in traffic. Gas tax should be raised when there is congestion, and lowered when there is none, like some sort of a market.

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by njaohnt

...The problem with leaving things the way they are, is that there are people who need to live where they live, and work where they work, and they have no option but to go by car. We need to make sure those people can get to work in a reasonable amount of time.

I think you missed the point. Building a bigger road won't necessarily improve travel times during peak periods because of latent and induced demand.

[njaohnt]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

I think you missed the point. Building a bigger road won't necessarily improve travel times during peak periods because of latent and induced demand.

Many people are already trying to move very close to where they work, because of high gas prices. The higher they are, the closer people will move to their work. There's a point (I think) where gas prices, and congestion would meet on chart, where there is no congestion, and gas prices keep congestion down.

Like this:

[Reignman]

Originally Posted by njaohnt

If you look in the Transportation Master Plan St. Mary's is in red. Is there something worse in the city?

Definitely...Lagimodiere, Bishop, Kenaston...the way Winnipeg does things give CPT another 20 years...all routes that are designated "expressways" (at least in part) and would require far less work to be made truly free flowing compared to St Mary's Rd. Without massive crazy expensive expropriation I don't see how St Mary's Rd can ever be made free flowing.

[mattpa]

I think that the red highlighted in the transportation plan is making st marys 6 lanes not freeflowing

[njaohnt]

Originally Posted by mattpa

I think that the red highlighted in the transportation plan is making st marys 6 lanes not freeflowing

The problem with adding lanes is that it makes it harder to make overpasses in the future.

[njaohnt]

Anyway, if there's an interchange the city needs, it's Grant and Kenaston. Even after it is widened, it will have F LOS in the afternoon. ( http://www.winnipeg.ca/publicworks/M...sePart1of2.pdf )

[bomberjet]

Just to chime in, and I know this has been beaten to death. I just got back from a 16 day road trip across western Canada and USA. MY fucking goodness, Manitoba roads are a complete and utter disaster. The worst roads I've been on that whole 9,500km voyage. What pieces of fucking shit.

We all know the interstate is God compared to our highways. But fuck. I get back to Manitoba late Sunday night. Bump da bump da bump down the highway. Get to 100 and Pembina and could barely find the right turn to take the exit onto EB 100. I made it cause I know. But if you didn't, could be trouble. Now I'm at Lag and 100, taking the eb-nb loop. Bump da bump da bump up the ramp, suspension being hammered with each seam. Then as you get closer to the top, WHAM! Big fucking pothole or something. don't think there was any damage to the car, I don't think. But the car is making a bit of noise now..

The whole trip, no issues, until the last hour of my drive back at home in Manitoba. It's not only embarrassing, but so dangerous... And we want to be a transportation hub. HAHA. I'm all for Manitoba and growing this Province. But seriously Manitoba NEEDS, yes NEEDS, a top notch highway system. Why would anyone want to move a business here when you can't get around without destroying your vehicle. And if your livelihood depends on driving, get the fuck out of here..

Highway 75, 100/101 and the 1 need to be free flowing pretty much everywhere. All the other highways can be upgraded here and there to make them better. It wouldn't take a whole lot, maybe $200M-$300M to make 75 a freeway. You don't need to rebuild the whole thing, just put up diamonds at all the key intersections and you're done. It really is that simple. Morris bypass would be the most expensive part.

[harls]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Just to chime in, and I know this has been beaten to death. I just got back from a 16 day road trip across western Canada and USA. MY fucking goodness, Manitoba roads are a complete and utter disaster. The worst roads I've been on that whole 9,500km voyage. What pieces of fucking shit.

We all know the interstate is God compared to our highways. But fuck. I get back to Manitoba late Sunday night. Bump da bump da bump down the highway. Get to 100 and Pembina and could barely find the right turn to take the exit onto EB 100. I made it cause I know. But if you didn't, could be trouble. Now I'm at Lag and 100, taking the eb-nb loop. Bump da bump da bump up the ramp, suspension being hammered with each seam. Then as you get closer to the top, WHAM! Big fucking pothole or something. don't think there was any damage to the car, I don't think. But the car is making a bit of noise now..

The whole trip, no issues, until the last hour of my drive back at home in Manitoba. It's not only embarrassing, but so dangerous... And we want to be a transportation hub. HAHA. I'm all for Manitoba and growing this Province. But seriously Manitoba NEEDS, yes NEEDS, a top notch highway system. Why would anyone want to move a business here when you can't get around without destroying your vehicle. And if your livelihood depends on driving, get the fuck out of here..

Highway 75, 100/101 and the 1 need to be free flowing pretty much everywhere. All the other highways can be upgraded here and there to make them better. It wouldn't take a whole lot, maybe $200M-$300M to make 75 a freeway. You don't need to rebuild the whole thing, just put up diamonds at all the key intersections and you're done. It really is that simple. Morris bypass would be the most expensive part.

I was in MB two weeks ago and I share your frustration. The trouble is, nothing is going to be done unless there's an imminent flood of people to put pressure on the government to build something.

North Dakota has nice highways because it's federally funded. Canada doesn't have the same system. Maybe one day.

(for the record, hwy 2 is well maintained.. up until 18. Hwy 18 is a disaster..)

[cheswick]

I must always take the wrong highways when I go on road trips cause I never notice this night and day difference in highways between MB and elsewhere people always seem to talk about. I took a freeway from Bloomington to Blane MN a few months ago that was far worse than anything I've ever driven in MB.

[bomberjet]

^ Yeah, it would be nice if the Feds funded a highway system. I know it's give and take with government spending. US doesn't have healthcare like Canada does, blah blah blah. But come on already. It's not an NDP, Con, Liberal thing. It's just people being stupid.

I took many back highways throughout the US too, not just interstates, and they were in much better condition than most of highway 75. State funded highways. You go drive down main streets in various cities and there are no potholes, there's no craters to navigate around. Roads that are clearly in way better condition than most Winnipeg streets are being ripped up and re-paved. I guess they have money? I don't know. Oregon surprised me at how awesome their highways are. Fucking Oregon! Who ever hears about them. Wyoming, holy shit a state with nothing and the highways were great.

Note: Apologies if you don't like the language, but I feel it gets my point across about how pissed I am.

[Reignman]

^ bomberjet...lol. Great post. A true uncensored statement voicing the frustrations that I cannot believe more people in this city and province share. I too have travelled extensively and have come back to this pathetic road and highway network fit for a third world country. Nothing is planned properly, nothing is built or repaired properly. the bumpy interchange ramps you mention are a perfect example. When the province has a perimeter interchange under repair for two years as they currently do with two on the south perimeter, you would think they would toss a few more bucks in and resurface the loops that are so bad they rattle your teeth out. But not here.

It seriously amazes me how few people here seem to care about the state of the road system we have here. Maybe they just haven't traveled enough and don't know any better...I don't know. But as Harls mentions above, nothing will get done until the day that enough voters have had enough of this shit and force the government to do something about it. I know I have done my part....I have written councillors, public works, the province and even Pallister for his opinion on the perimeter highway situation. No repsonses. Goes to show just how much of a priority roads are in this backwards province.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by harls

North Dakota has nice highways because it's federally funded.

Only interstate highways are federally funded, all other highways are normally state funded.

Originally Posted by bomberjet

MY fucking goodness, Manitoba roads are a complete and utter disaster. The worst roads I've been on that whole 9,500km voyage. What pieces of fucking shit.

Haha, try it with a stiffly sprung car.

[bomberjet]

On a side note. If you have never driven the Pacific Coast highway, you must do it once in your lifetime. Absolutely gorgeous. And nicely paved!

[esquire]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I took many back highways throughout the US too, not just interstates, and they were in much better condition than most of highway 75. State funded highways. You go drive down main streets in various cities and there are no potholes, there's no craters to navigate around. Roads that are clearly in way better condition than most Winnipeg streets are being ripped up and re-paved. I guess they have money? I don't know. Oregon surprised me at how awesome their highways are. Fucking Oregon! Who ever hears about them. Wyoming, holy shit a state with nothing and the highways were great.

Federal funding is one thing, but climate is another... the conditions here pound the hell out of the roads in a way that just doesn't exist in a place like, say, South Carolina. So in some respects Manitoba is faced with spending far more than other jursidictions just to maintain the status quo, never mind actually improving things.

But of course, that doesn't really excuse the fact that our roads are far behind what exists in other jurisdictions. We are underserviced when it comes to roads and what does exist is generally in poor shape.

Originally Posted by Riverman

Haha, try it with a stiffly sprung car.

I had such a car when I was younger and I won't be doing that again.

Between the terrible surfaces and stop-and-go traffic, I think this is the wrong town for a really sporty car. Maybe it's not so bad to feel the road when you're roaring up I-10 on the way to Malibu, but it is torture feeling every pothole on Sargent as you lurch from one red light to another.

As much as I hate to admit it, Winnipeg is a great town for a big SUV riding on fat 19" tires, or maybe a big boat of a Cadillac DTS so you float over the many imperfections on every road.

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by harls

I was in MB two weeks ago and I share your frustration. The trouble is, nothing is going to be done unless there's an imminent flood of people to put pressure on the government to build something.

North Dakota has nice highways because it's federally funded. Canada doesn't have the same system. Maybe one day.

(for the record, hwy 2 is well maintained.. up until 18. Hwy 18 is a disaster..)

You mean the federal funding mechinism (DOT) that is currently under water? Ya, I sure hope that the Canadian Government can implement something that will end up making us even more in debt.

http://thehill.com/policy/transporta...ction-shutdown

It's so bad the US-DOT is looking to give all their infrastructure over to the state to maintain. When that happens you will see what bad interstates look like; maybe not in MN or ND, which has relatively strong state legislatives, but just try to drive across MT or NV, where the states aren't as rich.

[drew]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Oregon surprised me at how awesome their highways are. Fucking Oregon! Who ever hears about them. Wyoming, holy shit a state with nothing and the highways were great.

Oregon doesn't freeze.

Wyoming is a hugely wealthy state.

Winnipeg's (and southern Manitoba in general) road woes are a combination of a lack of funding, and quite possibly the worst possible combination of climate and soil conditions on the ENTIRE PLANET.

Extended periods of freeze/thaw, fall and spring? Check
20 to 50 feet of solid, highly plastic clay on which to build roads? Check
Extreme heat in the summer and cold in the winter? Check
Salt in the winter? Check
Snow clearing equipment damaging road surfaces, curbs, sidewalks? Check.

Are we honestly expecting roads to survive like "everywhere else" under these conditions with the same, likely less funding here in Winnipeg? I don't. I also don't support ear marking massive money on costly road infrastructure that will be difficult to maintain over the long run. Especially in a cash strapped province.

Deal with the bumps.

[bomberjet]

I'll send you my repair bills next time. Want to buy the rims I have sitting in my garage that are destroyed because I was driving faster than 20 km/h? Not even fancy rims, just plain old stock rims off my old Honda. MPI give me the run-around about how I should be driving to the conditions.

I'm expecting to have some good quality roads to drive on. Again, we want to be a shipping hub on 3rd world roads. So we should just wallow in despair because we have to deal with said conditions? Sorry, no. Typical downer attitude. Do you use that same attitude on downtown? Well it's a piece of shit so just deal with it? And we all wonder why Manitoba keeps falling further and further behind.

This has more to do with than just the bumps, it's the whole system. It's garbage. Like I said, I'm preaching to the choir.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by drew

Oregon doesn't freeze.

Wyoming is a hugely wealthy state.

Winnipeg's (and southern Manitoba in general) road woes are a combination of a lack of funding, and quite possibly the worst possible combination of climate and soil conditions on the ENTIRE PLANET.

Extended periods of freeze/thaw, fall and spring? Check
20 to 50 feet of solid, highly plastic clay on which to build roads? Check
Extreme heat in the summer and cold in the winter? Check
Salt in the winter? Check
Snow clearing equipment damaging road surfaces, curbs, sidewalks? Check.

Are we honestly expecting roads to survive like "everywhere else" under these conditions with the same, likely less funding here in Winnipeg? I don't. I also don't support ear marking massive money on costly road infrastructure that will be difficult to maintain over the long run. Especially in a cash strapped province.

Deal with the bumps.

Couldn't agree more. While there are definitely some projects I would like to see happen (i.e. anything on route 90) for the most part MB roads are fine. The worst one was south to Emerson and that's currently being redone. There just aren't enough people that regularly use these highways to justify the cost of keeping them in perfect condition.

Also, at least the signage on our highways is easy to read, prominent, and REFLECTIVE. If you have ever driven through Saskatchewan at night (or even day for that matter) the signage there is an absolute joke. You're lucky if there's a warning before your turn off.

[drew]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I'll send you my repair bills next time. Want to buy the rims I have sitting in my garage that are destroyed because I was driving faster than 20 km/h? Not even fancy rims, just plain old stock rims off my old Honda. MPI give me the run-around about how I should be driving to the conditions.

I'm expecting to have some good quality roads to drive on. Again, we want to be a shipping hub on 3rd world roads. So we should just wallow in despair because we have to deal with said conditions? Sorry, no. Typical downer attitude. Do you use that same attitude on downtown? Well it's a piece of shit so just deal with it? And we all wonder why Manitoba keeps falling further and further behind.

This has more to do with than just the bumps, it's the whole system. It's garbage. Like I said, I'm preaching to the choir.

You destroyed your wheels?

Sorry about that. But I agree with MPI on this one.

Also sorry you don't want to hear about the realities of roads in Winnipeg. You want perfect roads, move somewhere else. We don't have the conditions or the means to do it here. That's a reality. But I think I spelt that out quite clearly above.