Winnipeg Construction X

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by lilwayne

Im sure truviking and biff already know what the new owner is planning they just aren't at liberty to say

I imagine atleast 2 new towers with retail office space on the main level

At least 2 new towers? lol Yeah maybe there will be 5 or 6.

Don't ever change lilwayne.

[dmacc]

When do you think the proposal will be made public? The closed door meeting doesn't necessarily mean we will know anything afterwards. I hope we get all the details soon.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by dmacc

When do you think the proposal will be made public? The closed door meeting doesn't necessarily mean we will know anything afterwards. I hope we get all the details soon.

Could be a while, as I recall it was maybe a couple years after the Winnipeg Square parkade changed hands before Artis launched its development plans.

Although who knows, depending on who the buyer is, it's possible that they might give at least some idea of where they want to go with it. Their track record might also provide some indication of what's likely.

[DonaldSmith]

Originally Posted by esquire

Could be a while, as I recall it was maybe a couple years after the Winnipeg Square parkade changed hands before Artis launched its development plans.

Although who knows, depending on who the buyer is, it's possible that they might give at least some idea of where they want to go with it. Their track record might also provide some indication of what's likely.

Forks; Clare MacKay: TO developer Starlight Investments plans total investment of $300M, including purchase price, to redevelop the mall; with possible student housing make-over for commercial retail #wpgpoli

https://twitter.com/aldosantin/statu...55040051892225

[Wpg_Guy]

[esquire]

I'm not familiar with Starlight but judging by their website they seem to be all about MURBs with a handful of commercial buildings of all types. This would probably a bit different than what they usually get involved in... I'm curious to find out about what they'd have planned.

Also, I wonder what FNP will do with its windfall from the sale of the parkade portion?

[esquire]

Thinking it over further, losing the retail space in the mall could be good for downtown. Let's face it, downtown won't be a major retail destination anymore within our lifetimes. But there will always be some demand for a basic level of service. Instead of having a big half-dead mall hogging a bunch of retailers, maybe some of them will end up in storefronts along the streets... it could help form a critical mass that doesn't currently exist.

Hell, even if a few retailers end up in Cityplace that could be a good thing too... better to have one or two decent malls instead of three lame ones.

[oftheMoon]

$300M has a nice ring to it

[dmacc]

With $69 million going towards the sale of the property that leaves $231 Million left for development. With pads already in place much like 300 Main that is plenty of money to build 2 towers and redo the mall area.

300 Main was $130ish million for a 40 story building, I can't imagine the 2 Towers at PP costing much more then $150-$200? That leaves a minimum of $31 million to rework the mall. Granted my numbers are only slightly less then just guesses with sprinkles of factual numbers.

[esquire]

Where does Place Promenade, the IBM Building, and the rest of the North Portage development area factor into this? Are they part of the deal?

[dmacc]

Wow it sure is great to see that over the course of 5ish years there will be nearly a billion dollars of private money flowing into construction downtown:

$550 million - TNS - Towers 1-5
$130 million - 300 Main
$230 million - PP Redevelopment
$910 million

I'm sure with the other builds that happened in the Bro-ass area and other smaller projects, the total investment is well over a billion dollars.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by pspeid

^^I wonder what this would do to the downtown Bay store? Perhaps some of the retail that currently occupies Portage Place (and still wants a downtown presence) would take up some floor space in The Bay?

Hudson Bay made a public statement targeted towards investors that a large round of store closing is likely to happen soon. No specific stores were named but that they called out that no store was "too sacred" to be spared essentially calls on the Portage and Memorial location by name.

Physical retail as a whole as a dying game. Everything is moving online beyond the quick purchase convenience items. It is partly why dollar stores have been showing up seemingly on every street corner. Relatively speaking for the size Winnipeg is we are still over retailed to current standards. It is why the opening on the outlet mall hit Kennaston Common fairly hard. If Portage Place closed all its retail minimal of it would actually reopen even if suitable space was available. It is part of why downtown retail eroded in the first place. It isn't just a Winnipeg issue but rather a larger issue with retail in "American" markets.

Originally Posted by pspeid

The social issues around Portage Place have been well documented, and there seems to be no role for a huge mall to play in the current revitalization of downtown.

The challenge is sanitizing Portage Place to "address the social issues" does nothing to actually solve those same social issues. It rather just sweeps them away to someplace else.

Originally Posted by pspeid

Is Prairie Theatre Exchange still located on the third floor? If that moves to south Portage Ave., it would certainly reinforce the development of the SHED district.

Perhaps Prairie Theatre Exchange and the RWB could partner on a new shared performing arts venue in the SHED, perhaps as part of the cathedral redevelopment.

Originally Posted by Pinus

However, the decline of our city centre retail is still occuring. It doesn't take a genius to realize as we approach a state of critical mass, there will be increasing demand for downtown retail shopping once again.

Currently we have two significant areas of mass retail; Portage Place Shopping Centre and CityPlace. The bones are there for significant retail development. But are both needed to accommodate the eventual demand for shopping in the city centre? Is only one of these locations needed? If so, which one should we keep? We cannot afford to lose two significant commercial retail shopping centre structures. The Bay would eventually rebound, but it's a question of how long are they willing to wait around for.

We are so bloody close to that tipping point. It's very frustrating to think about what we have and what we could lose to eventually meet the demand for what is developing.

Brick and mortar retail is never coming back to downtown Winnipeg. The population in the downtown core could go up 100x and it will still not have the needed critical mass for what people on this forum keep wishing would happen. Reality is retailers can do far more cheaper and hyper focused retailing with a good website, some online marketing and a single giant warehouse. It is a trend that is much larger than just downtown Winnipeg too. It is why social media influencers are a thing now.

As for the Bay downtown it is a done deal. The only reason it is even still operating as a "going concern" is for the losses it can generate and what that means for tax purposes.

Originally Posted by lilwayne

At the same time that would be lots of businesses shutting down killing lot of jobs.. i imagine theyll relocate or maybe the new owner will keep it a mall but add residences over top of it and than renovate the rest of it

Brick and mortar retail shutting down = job loss is a myth. For the most part the same number of people remain employed in "retail" however the jobs are shifting from store based to warehouse/fulfillment based.

Originally Posted by LilZebra

It was by about '91-92 that the "vibe" at the mall changed.

When Portage Place first opened it was managed by Cadillac Fairview until their bankruptcy restructuring in 1994 when they shed some properties. The store that made the rounds at the time was they pressured retailers wanting space in Polo Park to also operate a store out of Portage Place. And if you were new to Winnipeg you needed to be in Portage Place before you could get into Polo Park.

I sort of wish I could date when HMV actually opened in Portage Place as I know it wasn't one of the lead tenants. Best I can come up with is after 91 but that is just from memory. If I had to guess it was 93.

Article dating the Cadillac Fairview bankruptcy

[Biff]

Originally Posted by dmacc

300 Main was $130ish million for a 40 story building, I can't imagine the 2 Towers at PP costing much more then $150-$200? That leaves a minimum of $31 million to rework the mall. Granted my numbers are only slightly less then just guesses with sprinkles of factual numbers.

If I recall, the engineering behind the pads at Portage Place are only built to support approx. 15 storeys each. So with the existing 3-4 storey podium you are looking at a 20 storey building max.

....still, would be a huge improvement.

[1ajs]

to bad the project across the st from portage place got caught in a nasty devorce

[dmacc]

Yup, I wasn't intending to suggest the towers at PP would be 40 storey's tall. I was only trying to associate a cost per storey to prove that it would be relatively easy to build out both towers to their max height withing the budget proposed.

Obviously there are other cost that would make building two 20 storey buildings cost more then building a single 40 storey building but even if you add 50% to the construction and inflation costs that brings you right in line with my $150-$200 million dollar estimate above.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Biff

If I recall, the engineering behind the pads at Portage Place are only built to support approx. 15 storeys each. So with the existing 3-4 storey podium you are looking at a 20 storey building max.

....still, would be a huge improvement.

Those pads are located on both ends of the mall correct?

What sort of cost would be involved with a strengthening to accommodate larger towers? Because I could see a company do that if it were not unreasonably priced to increase their potential yield.


On that note, are there any photos of an original rendering showing what the buildings on the pads would look like (in the original proposal for PP)? I was looking but I couldn't find any and I was hoping someone here could help out.

Just curious to see what the original vision was.

[Wpg_Guy]

Originally Posted by esquire

Also, I wonder what FNP will do with its windfall from the sale of the parkade portion?

Toronto developer wants to buy Portage Place, parkade and land
By: Aldo Santin
Posted: 07/5/2019 10:45 AM
MacKay said the North Portage Development Corp. board has already unanimously approved the deal, and the agency is now seeking approval from the three shareholders — the city, the province and the federal government.

MacKay confirmed that revenue from the shopping centre parkade and mall land lease had been used to subsidize operations at The Forks, adding proceeds from the sale will be invested and the annual interest used for the same purpose.

MacKay said North Portage Development Corp. is considering a proposal to invest its $47 million with the Winnipeg Foundation, which would pay annual dividends to the agency from the interest.

MacKay said that the sale is not unusual for North Portage Development Corp., explaining the agency has sold at least seven other parcels of land in its 30 year history.

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/lo...512260152.html

[Wpg_Guy]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Those pads are located on both ends of the mall correct?

What sort of cost would be involved with a strengthening to accommodate larger towers? Because I could see a company do that if it were not unreasonably priced to increase their potential yield.


On that note, are there any photos of an original rendering showing what the buildings on the pads would look like (in the original proposal for PP)? I was looking but I couldn't find any and I was hoping someone here could help out.

Just curious to see what the original vision was.

I recall an earlier version of a tower on the pad site floating around, a black and white rendering.

[dmacc]

Wasn't there something in the HQ2 proposal?

[drew]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Those pads are located on both ends of the mall correct?

What sort of cost would be involved with a strengthening to accommodate larger towers? Because I could see a company do that if it were not unreasonably priced to increase their potential yield.


On that note, are there any photos of an original rendering showing what the buildings on the pads would look like (in the original proposal for PP)? I was looking but I couldn't find any and I was hoping someone here could help out.

Just curious to see what the original vision was.

It's mostly dependent on the foundation that is already in place. They won't be drilling any more piles, so the question is what amount of weight the existing piles can handle.

In the case of 300 Main, they were able to go taller than the original proposed office tower - mostly because residential has lower floor occupancy loading, and lower floor to floor heights. The "strengthening" that was done was solely to increase the existing core to be able to handle the wind loads from the higher than originally proposed tower.

IIRC, the pads at Portage Place were always intended for residential, so we aren't going to see anything too much beyond 15-floors or so.