Kapyong Barracks Discussion - Page 4

Spocket · #61 Posted **Apr 3, 2018, 3:06 AM**

Never completely understood opposition to FN urban reserves. I think it's blowing smoke to include reconciliation as one of the benefits and having any development include lower-income housing isn't going to go over very well with residents of virtually any suburban neighborhood. That said, I hope if a business is established that it flourishes.

Biff · #62 Posted **Apr 3, 2018, 1:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spocket

Never completely understood opposition to FN urban reserves.

I think part of the issue with people opposed to urban reserves is that any time they are presented, there is never a concrete development plan (or even a loose one). It usually is presented as "we are looking to probably put a gas station, smoke shop and casino on the property - it will be nice"

....and almost verbatim for Kapyong was a gas station and casino. That is the best conceptual plan they have. I realize the deal hasn't been signed yet but if it were me looking to gain support for my upcoming neighborhood altering development, I would have spent some time coming up with a "what could be vision" similar to the Market Lands property.

esquire · #63 Posted **Apr 3, 2018, 1:34 PM**

^ The knee jerk answer is always gas station and casino, but in this case once the ownership issue is resolved, the FN players will realize they're going to be leaving a ton of money on the table if they leave it to some random band councillors to plan the site out. There's no way they aren't going to team up with some experienced developers and let them figure out what is going to make the most money on the site.

Tacheguy · #64 Posted **Apr 10, 2018, 2:37 PM**

announcement coming. property transferring to treaty one bands

Tacheguy · #65 Posted **Apr 10, 2018, 2:39 PM**

now the fun part starts. developing a plan and negotiating with the city

bomberjet · #66 Posted **Apr 10, 2018, 4:34 PM**

I really hope this becomes a model for future developments of this type.

We don't need another penny slot south beach casino type thing.

Wpg_Guy · #67 Posted **Apr 10, 2018, 4:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I really hope this becomes a model for future developments of this type.

We don't need another penny slot south beach casino type thing.

Or a gas station and smoke shop.

bomberjet · #68 Posted **Apr 10, 2018, 4:49 PM**

With such a large site, I'm already resigned to the fact there will be a gas station, which is fine. A gas station can be part of the development. But the whole model should not be based around a gas station selling smokes.

I thought gas stations were barely profitable these days. Hence why companies like Esso have been closing stations and focusing on wholesale.

trueviking · #69 Posted **Apr 10, 2018, 5:18 PM**

I drove by that first nations owned gas station behind polo park a week ago...there was easily 20 cars in line.

trueviking · #70 Posted **Apr 10, 2018, 5:20 PM**

the one thing I wonder about urban reserves is, can people who are not indigenous own businesses and build homes there? Will a bank give a mortgage to someone without owning the property? typically they do not. I'm not sure I'd buy a house on property I didn't own, even with a lease....especially when the owner is someone who doesn't generally believe the laws of the nation apply to them.

WHat is the advantage of it being an urban reserve if the homes are intended for everyone?

man, I hope it is a great suburban development and not an extension of the IKEA area crap.

trueviking · #71 Posted **Apr 10, 2018, 5:24 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biff

I think part of the issue with people opposed to urban reserves is that any time they are presented, there is never a concrete development plan (or even a loose one). It usually is presented as "we are looking to probably put a gas station, smoke shop and casino on the property - it will be nice"

....and almost verbatim for Kapyong was a gas station and casino. That is the best conceptual plan they have. I realize the deal hasn't been signed yet but if it were me looking to gain support for my upcoming neighborhood altering development, I would have spent some time coming up with a "what could be vision" similar to the Market Lands property.

Totally agree with this...whenever I have mentioned it to anyone that mattered, the response was, we don't need to sell any ideas to anyone....we don't need approval or support.

windypeg · #72 Posted **Apr 10, 2018, 5:26 PM**

FN-owned waterpark?

bomberjet · #73 Posted **Apr 10, 2018, 5:31 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by trueviking

I drove by that first nations owned gas station behind polo park a week ago...there was easily 20 cars in line.

How much do they actually make off the gas? A couple cents a litre? I don't really know, but that's what I've heard before. Profits come from selling all the other crap in the store.

CoryB · #74 Posted **Apr 10, 2018, 6:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadian Taxpayers Federation

On average Canadians pay 43 cents of tax on each litre of gas and 36 cents on each litre of diesel.

Source

If treaty gas means those taxes are not payable to other governments that is a pretty good profit margin to be made, even after offering a sizable discount to status customers.

Without looking up the exact breakdown, tobacco also has some very significant markups as mandatory taxes.

If an urban reserve in Winnipeg could also open a private wine store/beer vendor and pot dispensary they could really start raking in the revenue even without a casino.

--

With whatever is to become of the barracks location, with multiple first nations involved I hope some arms length group is setup to look after the operational aspects with the stakeholders being paid dividends. If each stakeholder has a direct influence over the operations it could get messy. It would be similar to having shopping centre owned by four different anchor tenants. Joint ownership in a business doesn't work out well without well defined rules on how decisions are made and by whom.

bomberjet · #75 Posted **Apr 10, 2018, 6:43 PM**

What are the laws when selling to non-status people? I don't think you can go to a reserve and buy discount cigarettes without a treaty card. Likely same for gas. Otherwise why would you go anywhere else!

And those are just taxes. What about the costs from supplier.

I did some looking online and seems like gas stations sell gas basically at cost. they might make a couple cents.

DavefromSt.Vital · #76 Posted **Apr 10, 2018, 8:36 PM**

Interesting that the event is taking place at Assiniboia Downs.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-...t-nations.html

drew · #77 Posted **Apr 10, 2018, 8:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bomberjet

What are the laws when selling to non-status people? I don't think you can go to a reserve and buy discount cigarettes without a treaty card. Likely same for gas. Otherwise why would you go anywhere else!

And those are just taxes. What about the costs from supplier.

I did some looking online and seems like gas stations sell gas basically at cost. they might make a couple cents.

If you don't have a status card, you can't get the discounted prices.

But then, if you don't live on a reserve, you cannot have a status card. So there must be some sort of gray area in there, as the discounts at urban reserves would only serve people with Status cards that are visiting the City.

Or wait, would people living on an urban reserve also be able to retain their Status cards? If so, that would be a pretty big incentive for new housing at Kapyong.

Tacheguy · #78 Posted **Apr 10, 2018, 9:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by drew

If you don't have a status card, you can't get the discounted prices.

But then, if you don't live on a reserve, you cannot have a status card. So there must be some sort of gray area in there, as the discounts at urban reserves would only serve people with Status cards that are visiting the City.

Or wait, would people living on an urban reserve also be able to retain their Status cards? If so, that would be a pretty big incentive for new housing at Kapyong.

people are concerned about those remote reserves with limited economic capacity or potential. maybe urban reserves could be a part of the solution in terms of facilitating migration to the southern economy. not really a factor in this case though..

rrskylar · #79 Posted **Apr 10, 2018, 9:05 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by drew

If you don't have a status card, you can't get the discounted prices.

But then, if you don't live on a reserve, you cannot have a status card. So there must be some sort of gray area in there, as the discounts at urban reserves would only serve people with Status cards that are visiting the City.

Or wait, would people living on an urban reserve also be able to retain their Status cards? If so, that would be a pretty big incentive for new housing at Kapyong.

Don't agree with any of the premise of urban reserves despite how any of the left wing gobbledygook is presented, it gives one group an unfair advantage over others in the guise of righting past wrongs! It also prolongs the disparity between band council members and those actually living on reserves in impoverished conditions.

esquire · #80 Posted **Apr 10, 2018, 9:08 PM**

Everyone thinks is going to be some kind of amateur hour development with corrugated metal exterior casinos, gas bars/smoke shops like in a small town, and various other shantytown buildings. I think that sentiment is dead wrong.

The reason for this is because there are experienced development players who are going to persuade the Treaty 1 group that they will extract far more value from the land than a bunch of band councillors calling the shots on their own ever could. And that not engaging such a developer would be tantamount to leaving big money on the table.

For an example, look no further than native casinos in the US. These are big-time facilities designed and operated by major gaming companies. Not some small town guys with no experience in the business.

Maybe the Kapyong casino won't be quite as big as this one in Minnesota, but the overall level of polish gives you an idea of where they'll be aiming:

Same with the rest of the development. Maybe there will be some space devoted to use by the Treaty 1 FNs, but I fully expect that this will be about maximizing profit to be directed to those communities. Not about relocating parts of those communities to Grant and Kenaston.