Violent Crime in Winnipeg..

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by hexrae

I'm sorry, how about you enlighten me as to any crime issues back then as opposed to now? I see what you're getting at, but how can you compare poverty from different eras? Seems wreckless if you ask me.

If poverty was generally not accompanied by crime in one era, but is accompanied by crime in another era, then the thesis that poverty causes crime doesn't seem very convincing. If you gave every gang member in Winnipeg $100,000 tomorrow, I doubt that they'd suddenly retire from their lives of crime and become solid upstanding citizens. In any case, exactly why it is that a lack of money would "cause" someone to douse someone else with gasoline and set fire to them, or to beat a random stranger to death out on the street, is unclear.

[Winnipegger@Heart]

Originally Posted by hexrae

I'm sorry, how about you enlighten me as to any crime issues back then as opposed to now? I see what you're getting at, but how can you compare poverty from different eras? Seems wreckless if you ask me.

Not at all! Someone back then maybe walked away with a fat lip...these days, you don't walk away; you are in a body bag. The north end is somewhat different today than 50 years ago...

[hexrae]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger@Heart

Not at all! Someone back then maybe walked away with a fat lip...these days, you don't walk away; you are in a body bag. The north end is somewhat different today than 50 years ago...

Really? Can you prove that, or are you basing this on your latest copy of the Free Press/Sun?

[hexrae]

Originally Posted by Andy6

If poverty was generally not accompanied by crime in one era, but is accompanied by crime in another era, then the thesis that poverty causes crime doesn't seem very convincing. If you gave every gang member in Winnipeg $100,000 tomorrow, I doubt that they'd suddenly retire from their lives of crime and become solid upstanding citizens. In any case, exactly why it is that a lack of money would "cause" someone to douse someone else with gasoline and set fire to them, or to beat a random stranger to death out on the street, is unclear.

Interesting, but I'm not with you on being unconvinced that poverty causes crime. Most self-sufficient people wouldn't go out of there way to break the law, do you agree?

[rgalston]

Originally Posted by hexrae

Most self-sufficient people wouldn't go out of there way to break the law, do you agree?

I agree wholeheartedly. Most self-sufficient people do not go out of their way to break the law. Exceedingly rich or desperately poor.

This is why, for one, I think Manitoba's welfare state needs to be reformed beyond recognition.

[Winnipegger@Heart]

How many Immigrants come here with no money, and they not only find employment, but many work at more than one job to not only make a life for themselves here, but to send money home, too.

It is easier joinging gangs, or stealing purses from old ladies than to get up everyday and go to work...

BTW, for all your preaching, how many of you would walk down Selkirk Ave at midnight? Think about that before getting on your high horse. The crime in the north end is because of one group, and everyone is too affraid to cite it. Joining a gang is a cowardly way to acquire any form of means; working two jobs to support not only your immediate family, but distant family is very admirable.

[hexrae]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger@Heart

How many Immigrants come here with no money, and they not only find employment, but many work at more than one job to not only make a life for themselves here, but to send money home, too.

It is easier joinging gangs, or stealing purses from old ladies than to get up everyday and go to work...

BTW, for all your preaching, how many of you would walk down Selkirk Ave at midnight? Think about that before getting on your high horse. The crime in the north end is because of one group, and everyone is too affraid to cite it. Joining a gang is a cowardly way to acquire any form of means; working two jobs to support not only your immediate family, but distant family is very admirable.

Like I told you before, I understand what you're getting at.

I live just off the corner of Arlington and Notre Dame, which isn't too far from Selkirk. I'm of this group you speak off, I grew up outside of this city but decided in order to make something of myself, I need to live in an urban setting. I'm still young but am very proud off my achievements. So, I take offense to your "because of one group" comments. I understand the afflictions facing my people, so if you want to discuss it, I suggest you don't dance around the obvious.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by trueviking

^ my intent was not to bash calgary, but only to say that the crime in every city can be sensationalized...this happened to be a calgary article claiming that winnipeg is detroit....if it was a vancouver paper, i would have found vancouver articles.

it seems that the media has latched on to this stereotype without puting it into perspective....and people seem to blindly accept it as fact....this stuff happens everywhere and in most places in north america way more often than it does in winnipeg.

All I meant was that you tend to be defensive, and lash out at other cities. I meant no offense.

Either way, we both agree that it is a sensational article by a second rate publication.

[Winnipegger@Heart]

Originally Posted by hexrae

Like I told you before, I understand what you're getting at.

I live just off the corner of Arlington and Notre Dame, which isn't too far from Selkirk. I'm of this group you speak off, I grew up outside of this city but decided in order to make something of myself, I need to live in an urban setting. I'm still young but am very proud off my achievements. So, I take offense to your "because of one group" comments. I understand the afflictions facing my people, so if you want to discuss it, I suggest you don't dance around the obvious.

We all know this, but it cannot be an excuse, and Aboriginal leaders need to become more involved. They hold their press conferences to denounce the government for not doing this, doing that, they hold press conferences to attack the police...yet they are never around to denounce the gang problem...

[hexrae]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger@Heart

We all know this, but it cannot be an excuse, and Aboriginal leaders need to become more involved. They hold their press conferences to denounce the government for not doing this, doing that, they hold press conferences to attack the police...yet they are never around to denounce the gang problem...

I'm not an Aboriginal leader, I'm not using my heritage as an excuse. I've asked that your posts be more to the point and now that they are, we can have an honest discussion about this.

[Winnipegger@Heart]

I think Aboriginal leaders may be effective at helping this...everything up until now has not helped.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by hexrae

Interesting, but I'm not with you on being unconvinced that poverty causes crime. Most self-sufficient people wouldn't go out of there way to break the law, do you agree?

You forget the world is full of Bernie Madoff's!

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger@Heart

How many Immigrants come here with no money, and they not only find employment, but many work at more than one job to not only make a life for themselves here, but to send money home, too.

It is easier joinging gangs, or stealing purses from old ladies than to get up everyday and go to work...

BTW, for all your preaching, how many of you would walk down Selkirk Ave at midnight? Think about that before getting on your high horse. The crime in the north end is because of one group, and everyone is too affraid to cite it. Joining a gang is a cowardly way to acquire any form of means; working two jobs to support not only your immediate family, but distant family is very admirable.

My grandfather grew up not far from Selkirk Avenue in a neighbourhood of mostly eastern European immigrants, many knew little English most were dirt poor yet crime was almost non existent. The predominant group living in that same neighbourhood now have grown up with a sense of entitlement and a lack of respect for anything including themselves, thus crime is rampant!

[hexrae]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

You forget the world is full of Bernie Madoff's!

That's why I said "most"

[hexrae]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

My grandfather grew up not far from Selkirk Avenue in a neighbourhood of mostly eastern European immigrants, many knew little English most were dirt poor yet crime was almost non existent. The predominant group living in that same neighbourhood now have grown up with a sense of entitlement and a lack of respect for anything including themselves, thus crime is rampant!

This I can get behind, and I thank you rrskylar for being more forecoming with your opinions. That's exactly the issue with Aboriginal people. Too much of "you owe me", and not enough of "I owe this to myself"

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by rgalston

I agree wholeheartedly. Most self-sufficient people do not go out of their way to break the law. Exceedingly rich or desperately poor.

This is why, for one, I think Manitoba's welfare state needs to be reformed beyond recognition.

AGREED!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Winnipegger@Heart

How many Immigrants come here with no money, and they not only find employment, but many work at more than one job to not only make a life for themselves here, but to send money home, too.

It is easier joinging gangs, or stealing purses from old ladies than to get up everyday and go to work...

BTW, for all your preaching, how many of you would walk down Selkirk Ave at midnight? Think about that before getting on your high horse. The crime in the north end is because of one group, and everyone is too affraid to cite it. Joining a gang is a cowardly way to acquire any form of means; working two jobs to support not only your immediate family, but distant family is very admirable.

selkirk aves problem is that bar and vender get rid of it you would see an improvement as for walking down at midnight me who has guts hmm i'm not sure how i would answer that i certanly would during the day and do but at midnight on a friday night?

Originally Posted by hexrae

This I can get behind, and I thank you rrskylar for being more forecoming with your opinions. That's exactly the issue with Aboriginal people. Too much of "you owe me", and not enough of "I owe this to myself"

does not help either that many of the leaders have that same atitude of you ow me.. witch is why there so much coruption ontop of it... and phillfontains rain did not really do any good ore like stir the pot and cause more problems then solving and stiring the racisym idiots... o yea and theres alot of racisym in the native community its prity bad... i have been a victim of it over the years and i am prity sure my for fathers would be pritty discusted if they saw what has happend today.. they were prity discusted with what was going on back then.........

[bomberguy]

Spate of high-profile crimes has some calling Winnipeg 'mini-Detroit'

By Chinta Puxley, The Canadian Press


WINNIPEG - First, a woman was shot dead at a weekend wedding reception when a gunman fired on the crowd through an open back door.
Then, a toddler was badly beaten against a city sidewalk after being taken by a stranger during a drinking party in the middle of the night.
Days later, an eight-month-old baby from the same housing complex was taken to hospital in serious condition after being slashed in the face with a golf club during an alleged domestic dispute.
This past Tuesday, a man who went to investigate a noise outside his home was set on fire. On the same day, police confirmed that a 29-year-old woman had died in hospital after allegedly being beaten for trying to shoplift. The woman's friends say the dispute was over a can of meat.
Although Winnipeg's crime rate is actually going down, the recent spate of high-profile - and horrific - crimes has shone an unflattering spotlight on the city. While many residents insist it's nothing out of the ordinary, others are scratching their heads and wondering what is going on.
"Personally I'm trying to decide between Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Edmonton, Calgary or Vancouver on where to move me and my family to," one man wrote this week on an online discussion board at newwinnipeg.com.
"I'm born and raised here but enough is enough. I live in the west end and crime is out of control, in particular random attacks. A dear friend of mine is in (hospital) as I type this after being mugged by two people for seven bucks. I know the other cities have their problems, but they're nowhere near as bad as Winnipeg. This city is turning into mini-Detroit."
"I've lived in Winnipeg, Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal, Quebec City," said another online poster. "Winnipeg, without a doubt, has the most crime statistically when it comes to violent crime, poverty, murder and car theft."
Rick Linden, professor of sociology at the University of Manitoba, said western Canadian cities have always had higher crime rates relative to other parts of the country. And, he said, Winnipeg has always ranked near the top.
Last year, Statistics Canada put Winnipeg No. 1 on the violent crime severity index, despite an 11 per cent drop year-over-year.
The city is growing rapidly and has a high concentration of poverty - both factors that help fuel crime, Linden said.
"We have way too much crime," he said. "The fact that there have been a few highly publicized incidents is just business as usual. It's not that there is any great wave. Winnipeg is a high-crime city."
The disturbing events over the last few weeks have only cemented that reputation, he added. At a recent conference Linden attended, his peers made jokes about Winnipeg saying, "that's a city I don't want to go to because of all the crime."
Politicians and police are feeling the heat, with some residents asking if the city is safe.
"It's been a bad week or two to say the least," said Winnipeg Mayor Sam Katz. "It's notice to us all that there are some problems we need to address."



more...


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/0...olent_winnipeg

[vid]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger@Heart

Personally, I am all for busting heads!

So are the criminals.

Originally Posted by Winnipegger@Heart

Not buying the "poverty" issue; poverty existed 100 years ago when the north end of Winnipeg was dominated by Polish, Ukrainians, Jewish residents...the area was still safe; safe enough for Bubbas and children to walk at all times of the day! Ya need to look at who is committing the crimes now, and create a solution.

Fort William's East End was just like Winnipeg's North End 100 years ago, and there are stories of men rounding up Doukhobors and marching them naked through the street for "fun". They also lacked the mass media we have today. Those crimes happened, but they didn't know about it, and it wasn't sensationalized. Crime is lower now than in the 1970s, but parents in the 1970s were far more lenient in how far from home their kids could go than they are today because the media exaggerates the problem and makes us feel unsafe even when we are quite safe.

Don't underestimate the impact the media's sensationalism has on how people live their lives.

Originally Posted by Andy6

If poverty was generally not accompanied by crime in one era, but is accompanied by crime in another era, then the thesis that poverty causes crime doesn't seem very convincing. If you gave every gang member in Winnipeg $100,000 tomorrow, I doubt that they'd suddenly retire from their lives of crime and become solid upstanding citizens. In any case, exactly why it is that a lack of money would "cause" someone to douse someone else with gasoline and set fire to them, or to beat a random stranger to death out on the street, is unclear.

Living in poverty puts a tremendous amount of stress on people. It is one of the reason why people living in poverty have such a struggle getting out of it. Many of them can't cope and turn to drugs, alcohol and crime to cope with it. Giving anyone in poverty a large sum of money isn't going to do anything good, they'll just spend it on more drugs and alcohol. What they need are social services that ease their stress, making it easier for them to become better citizens. In the case of gang members, it is more about a lifestyle than "poverty", but poverty, or rather the desire to use drugs provided by organized crime (gangs), feeds them. Gangs finance themselves by selling drugs, and it is people in poverty who are demanding these drugs. They will get people hooked on drugs by giving them free or cheap then start charging higher prices, but not demanding money, simply keeping a tab. If someone can't pay up, they beat them or, in some cases, kill them. In addition to that, gangs will fight for control over various neighbourhoods to hold monopolies and secure their profits. As long as this poverty exists in this scale, they're going to have a large market (poor and stressed out people looking for a release) for their product (drugs).

There is also the camaraderie of gangs that attracts so many people to them. People in poverty often feel alienated from the community at large, if they've grown up with irresponsible parents they'll feel alienated from their own families, they'll feel alone, so they join the gang and that becomes their family. They become a part of something, it's like a religion. This is why after school programmes, which give young people a purpose to their lives that isn't criminal, are so important. The join gangs to fill a void; we should be doing more to fill that void with something that benefits society at large, instead of letting them join something that hurts it.

It's a very complex issue, there is far more to it than money and you shouldn't be so narrow-minded about it. I would have expected more than you, Andy. You're a lawyer. It's your job to look at things from all angles to solve the problem in a way that benefits your clients. By ignoring the affects of poverty, you have failed your client (society at large).

Originally Posted by Winnipegger@Heart

I think Aboriginal leaders may be effective at helping this...everything up until now has not helped.

Aboriginal culture have many affective methods for dealing with crime (like healing circles, where the perpetrators and victims come together to discuss their situations and find solutions to all of their problems--I know of many cases where people have through this process become friends with people who did them wrong, and the person who committed the crime never commits a crime again. I would love to see healing circles integrated to our court system, at least for smaller stuff and young or first time offenders.)

Large parts of aboriginal culture were ruined with the residential school system, as it created a culture gap between elders and the generation that went through the schools, leaving many people alienated with their culture. (My great grandmother, to use this example once again, never spoke Ojibwe again after her ordeal because she was ashamed of her culture, and she even refused to put her kids into school for fear it would happen to them as well.) Our governments have to support their efforts more than they currently do. As an example, Dilico, an organization similar to Children's Aid, has outreach services to help people in poverty get out of it. Their child services are far more effective than Children's Aid. We need more of this.

Aboriginal leaders are trying to help. Our apathy to their solutions is a disservice to their efforts. We have to work with them, too.

[ScrappyPeg]

Originally Posted by hexrae

This I can get behind, and I thank you rrskylar for being more forecoming with your opinions. That's exactly the issue with Aboriginal people. Too much of "you owe me", and not enough of "I owe this to myself"

Here here!

[1ajs]

ugh what a thing to get woken up over at 8am on a saturday a friging drunken fight screeming broom sticks bighting cusing swearing for half a friggin hour its stoped but i think its about to start up again i realy hate that manitoba houseing dump across the lane...........