Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

When most Canadians who live in the parts of the country that function in English think of "Canada", "Canadians", and Canadian "things", by and large it's not Quebec references they have in mind.

I don't think it's malicious or mean-spirited. Just human nature.

Likewise, most Québécois don't think of Westmount or Shawville when they think of "Quebec" and the word "Québécois".

Exactly. We're perfectly tied on that one: we (naturally) tend to do the exact same, at Quebec's scale.

[Denscity]

Canada to me is Ottawa Montreal and Toronto so millions of French speakers there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Exactly. We're perfectly tied on that one: we (naturally) tend to do the exact same, at Quebec's scale.

Regardless of what people might say dismissively about language, it remains a huge factor.

To your average Québécois who has visited Caraquet, they'd probably say that it feels more like "home" than a place like Shawville or a row of apartment blocks in Parc-Extension.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by lio45

Compared to the average province, yes, which is a very logical reason why AB's yearly net flow of money with Ottawa is negative.

Yet you temporarily moved to Vancouver like all the other parasitic real estate investors with zero intention of staying, just to suck the marrow out of the city and make it that much harder for actual residents to afford housing. But Alberta is the sole province with a transient population using it to get rich and then leaving?

Proving my point: the education of those Ontarians (who after getting that education, moved and turned into taxpaying Albertans) was not paid by Alberta. A phenomenon which, on a larger scale, is why it's perfectly normal that Alberta's taxation/spending cashflow balance with the rest of the country would be negative.

This is fucking hilarious to read. Who said my family was well educated and brought superior eastern outsider skills and education. Some of them were waiters. But in lio’s world of alternative facts Albertans are just heehaw Beverly Hill Billies with zero education who require the aid of sophisticated Easterners to harness the potential of our resources. Nevermind the fact that Calgary has one of the highest educated workforces in the country (most of whom get their post secondary educations at one of the multiple universities in our city with programs specializing in things like engineering).

As you said, other places within the country have a warmer climate (and sometimes, are cheaper too). Alberta is quite bad bang-for-the-buck for retirees, let's face that. It's fairly high-cost, and it's isolated, and it has cold winters.

It’s isolated? Compared to Vancouver which has a barrier of mountains that blocked shipments to and from the rest of the country when the highway was washed out during the flooding last year? Calgary is the logistics centre of Western Canada. U.S. shipments come and go from here through Montana and to the rest of the country via that thing called the TransCanada highway. Also have you heard of this weather phenomenon called Chinooks? Calgary and southern Alberta has more warm and sunny days throughout the winter than most of Canada.

You sound like a dumbass American describing Canada as a land of igloos when discussing Alberta. I at least have family roots in Quebec, have visited my entire life and have even spent a summer living there. While my opinions may not be fully connected with those of its residents I have a rudimentary understanding of the province and don’t just base my opinions of it on ridiculous stereotypes.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't think that "ROC" or "rest of Canada" in Saskatchewan or Newfoundland means "everything aside from Quebec". In my experience this framing tends to vary depending on the perspective of the person using it.

In different regions the conceptualization of the parts of the country can be radically different. In Quebec it's often presented as French vs. English with the complexities of coast-to-coast bilingualism swept under the rug at times. In Alberta a lot of people have a "West vs. East" attitude while the more extremist view is "economic engine oil and gas extractors vs. moochers". Places like Newfoundland or PEI can have an island mentality. In NS it's often "Central Canada vs. not Central Canada", and the idea of somebody from Saskatchewan putting them in an "East" bucket with Ontario is odd.

To say nothing or the fact that it discounts francophones from across the country who reside outside Quebec. Half my francophone family is from Ontario. I have francophone friends with roots in Saskatchewan. Not to mention liojacks’ ancestors in New Brunswick.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't think that "ROC" or "rest of Canada" in Saskatchewan or Newfoundland means "everything aside from Quebec". In my experience this framing tends to vary depending on the perspective of the person using it.

In different regions the conceptualization of the parts of the country can be radically different. In Quebec it's often presented as French vs. English with the complexities of coast-to-coast bilingualism swept under the rug at times. In Alberta a lot of people have a "West vs. East" attitude while the more extremist view is "economic engine oil and gas extractors vs. moochers". Places like Newfoundland or PEI can have an island mentality. In NS it's often "Central Canada vs. not Central Canada", and the idea of somebody from Saskatchewan putting them in an "East" bucket with Ontario is odd.

The notion of the "ROC" is a bit funny from my perspective, and initially caught me off-guard. My memory of growing up in NL was that the ROC was literally the "mainland", and Quebec was just a part of that. IMO, the present perspective from BC is Canada as a mosaic, one in which Quebec is just a part, a different cultural flavour. Over the years however, Quebec's politicians have worked ceaselessly to make Quebec come to be regarded as a distinct entity, perhaps even a politically motivated and fabricated one for convenience as required, so it's no surprise that the "ROC" sees and recognizes that as an uncomfortable rift within the notion of Canadian unity, and one, which if ignored, is doing a disservice to Quebec. The East / West divide is a different one in which Quebec is just part of the East; this perspective is mostly motivated by Alberta's political resentment alone, and BC isn't as much a part of this.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've lived in 5 provinces and travelled to the rest of them, and I don't think most Canadians outside Quebec have this idea that outside of their own province the rest of the country is this somewhat uniform mass entity that exists as an opposite to their own province.

The boundaries that matter for most of the regionalisms don't match the provincial boundaries. In NS there is often a kind of pan-Maritime or Atlantic view but that doesn't mean that people in NS see their province as being the same as ON. It is similar in AB with SK being in that club. People in Quebec are also very similar to some living in northwestern NB; I'd say it doesn't matter much if that group is or isn't incorporated into some Quebec political or cultural view.

I also do think that the majority of Canadians who do not live in Quebec also do view the country in ROC-Quebec terms, albeit subliminally.

If you mean they have some concept of Quebec as being different because most people there speak French then maybe, although there are lots of different ways to look at it. If you mean that most Canadians see this as central or the most important dynamic in Canada, I don't think this is accurate at all, and is more like actively backwards from the reality on the ground today.

Around here I think that the most common view of Quebec is that it's another province about on par with BC or AB that acts like a "snowflake". And in the immigrant population (maybe a majority around where I am?) I'm not sure they have much notion of this at all. I think the old view of Canada as a kind of marriage of English and French elements (under the crown and with a bit of ambiance added by indigenous cultures) is in serious decline, and a lot of people are somewhat oblivious to culture and language as political factors.

[MonctonRad]

Is it ROC or RDC (reste du Canada)???

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Is it ROC or RDC (reste du Canada)???

If the subject is Quebec, it is more correctly MOC (Most of Canada). ROC is the kool-aid.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Yet you temporarily moved to Vancouver like all the other parasitic real estate investors with zero intention of staying, just to suck the marrow out of the city and make it that much harder for actual residents to afford housing. But Alberta is the sole province with a transient population using it to get rich and then leaving?



This is fucking hilarious to read. Who said my family was well educated and brought superior eastern outsider skills and education. Some of them were waiters. But in lio’s world of alternative facts Albertans are just heehaw Beverly Hill Billies with zero education who require the aid of sophisticated Easterners to harness the potential of our resources. Nevermind the fact that Calgary has one of the highest educated workforces in the country (most of whom get their post secondary educations at one of the multiple universities in our city with programs specializing in things like engineering).




It’s isolated? Compared to Vancouver which has a barrier of mountains that blocked shipments to and from the rest of the country when the highway was washed out during the flooding last year? Calgary is the logistics centre of Western Canada. U.S. shipments come and go from here through Montana and to the rest of the country via that thing called the TransCanada highway. Also have you heard of this weather phenomenon called Chinooks? Calgary and southern Alberta has more warm and sunny days throughout the winter than most of Canada.

You sound like a dumbass American describing Canada as a land of igloos when discussing Alberta. I at least have family roots in Quebec, have visited my entire life and have even spent a summer living there. While my opinions may not be fully connected with those of its residents I have a rudimentary understanding of the province and don’t just base my opinions of it on ridiculous stereotypes.

Come on man! LOL at the idea that Vancouver is more isolated than Calgary. As if Canada was an island like Australia and there was nothing just across the border.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Is it ROC or RDC (reste du Canada)???

We say "le reste du Canada" but sometimes say "le ROC " with ROC pronounced in English.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Yet you temporarily moved to Vancouver like all the other parasitic real estate investors with zero intention of staying, just to suck the marrow out of the city and make it that much harder for actual residents to afford housing. But Alberta is the sole province with a transient population using it to get rich and then leaving?
s.

Did he not employ a bunch of people there?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

The boundaries that matter for most of the regionalisms don't match the provincial boundaries. In NS there is often a kind of pan-Maritime or Atlantic view but that doesn't mean that people in NS see their province as being the same as ON. It is similar in AB with SK being in that club. People in Quebec are also very similar to some living in northwestern NB; I'd say it doesn't matter much if that group is or isn't incorporated into some Quebec political or cultural view.



If you mean they have some concept of Quebec as being different because most people there speak French then maybe, although there are lots of different ways to look at it. If you mean that most Canadians see this as central or the most important dynamic in Canada, I don't think this is accurate at all, and is more like actively backwards from the reality on the ground today.

Around here I think that the most common view of Quebec is that it's another province about on par with BC or AB that acts like a "snowflake". And in the immigrant population (maybe a majority around where I am?) I'm not sure they have much notion of this at all. I think the old view of Canada as a kind of marriage of English and French elements (under the crown and with a bit of ambiance added by indigenous cultures) is in serious decline, and a lot of people are somewhat oblivious to culture and language as political factors.

And yet 99% of ROCers totally write off Québec as a place to live (including Montréal most of the time even) while they move freely around the ROC as if its borders were effectively the borders of their country.

We are actually mostly saying the same thing. You just don't know it yet. .

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And yet 99% of ROCers totally write off Québec as a place to live (including Montréal most of the time even) while they move freely around the ROC as if its borders were effectively the borders of their country.

I don't think Canadians move much compared to Americans or maybe many Europeans. A large number of people I meet around here are either from Western Canada or from another country. They might have moved from say Alberta to BC and Western Canada is a big part of their "world" (or all of it), while for immigrants it's often a potion of Canada plus their home country (e.g. they live in Vancouver and their main tourism spots or alternative places to live are in China, not elsewhere in Canada). I wonder what effect this will have in the long run if "Canada" for a lot of people is just Vancouver or Toronto while they maintain one foot in another country and see themselves as moving around to wherever the best jobs are at the time.

I would say that Montreal is well known but has an unusually low profile, maybe on par with Edmonton around here, and knowledge of areas east of Quebec is hazy.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Did he not employ a bunch of people there?

His post was a load of crap that did not even try to address the common knowledge (and indisputable) facts I had highlighted: that 1) Alberta's population is younger than this country's average, that 2) Alberta is below average as a retirement destination within Canada, and that 3) Alberta is higher than the Canadian average on the metric "which % of its current working age population grew up in another province".

Every single one of these three factors would logically contribute to Alberta having a net deficit towards Ottawa, and the reality is that all three of them apply, combined.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

This is fucking hilarious to read. Who said my family was well educated and brought superior eastern outsider skills and education. Some of them were waiters. But in lio’s world of alternative facts Albertans are just heehaw Beverly Hill Billies with zero education who require the aid of sophisticated Easterners to harness the potential of our resources.

You're claiming that none of your Ontario-to-Alberta relatives ever had any schooling paid by Queen's Park? Forgive me for not finding it plausible that every single one of them was on the job market before Grade 1 of elementary school.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And yet 99% of ROCers totally write off Québec as a place to live (including Montréal most of the time even) while they move freely around the ROC as if its borders were effectively the borders of their country.

I would say that many anglo-Canadians have a love affair with the culture and cuisine of Quebec, but almost none would actually move there (for obvious linguistic reasons).

As you know, most anglo-Canadians fit right in with the dominant North American milieu, and are therefore steadfastly unilingual. This makes almost everywhere in Quebec a non starter, and, it seems like Quebec is becoming increasingly more hostile to anglophones all the time. Things are certainly much more restrictive now than they were in 1970.

It makes you wonder what things will be like in 20 years time? The next step could be to issue photo ID cards to the remaining old stock English population of the province, to be used to prove that they are eligible for services in English. No card, no service...........

I could see this happen. (Papers please).............

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

As you know, most anglo-Canadians fit right in with the dominant North American milieu, and are therefore steadfastly unilingual.

One blind spot in this conversation is that the US is actually very large and culturally diverse, and Canadians when they do fit in often just fit in with the adjacent American region, or fit in with some adaptation, which is not that interesting when you think about it. Around here that's the American Pacific Northwest but you couldn't say that the average Canadian could move to Arkansas and easily blend in with no lifestyle change required, and I don't think it's a given that language trumps all and Toronto is culturally more akin to any southern US town than Montreal.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I would say that many anglo-Canadians have a love affair with the culture and cuisine of Quebec, but almost none would actually move there (for obvious linguistic reasons).

As you know, most anglo-Canadians fit right in with the dominant North American milieu, and are therefore steadfastly unilingual. This makes almost everywhere in Quebec a non starter, and, it seems like Quebec is becoming increasingly more hostile to anglophones all the time. Things are certainly much more restrictive now than they were in 1970.

It makes you wonder what things will be like in 20 years time? The next step could be to issue photo ID cards to the remaining old stock English population of the province, to be used to prove that they are eligible for services in English. No card, no service...........

I could see this happen. (Papers please).............

That would be total fascism. Asking identification papers to get services, that is terrible. What would be next? Demanding a card to get free healthcare or a licence to drive a car? We would never see that In Canada, that is for sure (unless Trudeau allows it happens)!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

... but you couldn't say that the average Canadian could move to Arkansas and easily blend in with no lifestyle change required, and I don't think it's a given that language trumps all and Toronto is culturally more akin to any southern US town than Montreal.

More or less. Someone from downtown St. Petersburg would more easily blend in / adapt in rural Siberia than in downtown Stockholm, and someone from Tokyo would more easily blend in /adapt in a remote Japanese fishing village than in Seoul, and it would be 100% due to linguistic considerations.

I recall when reading some American tourist guide about Europe and was surprised that it said Britain was "often thought of as less exotic", and I realized that up to that point it had always seemed obvious that France was the not-exotic European country, I had just never stopped to consider why.

A place operating in a foreign language vs a place operating in your language, that's not just a minor factor. It makes a HUGE difference.

The average unilingual Anglo would feel more at home anywhere in Arkansas than in a fully francophone area of rural Quebec. Literally nothing feels LESS like home than having everyone speak, and all written stuff written, in a language you don't understand.