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  #21  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Cul-de-sacs definitely aren't the same thing as dead ends. A normal sized car should be able to enter/exit a cul-de-sac without needing to perform a sharp u-turn or three point turn.
The Webster's, Oxford and even Larousse dictionaries all define 'cul-de-sac' simply as a street with no exit other than the entrance. Nothing is said about how the street should end.
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  #22  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by bilbao58 View Post
The Webster's, Oxford and even Larousse dictionaries all define 'cul-de-sac' simply as a street with no exit other than the entrance. Nothing is said about how the street should end.
I'm a native English speaker and I've absolutely never used the terms "cul-de-sac" and "dead end" interchangeably. I don't recall anyone ever using the terms interchangeably, either.
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  #23  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bilbao58 View Post
The Webster's, Oxford and even Larousse dictionaries all define 'cul-de-sac' simply as a street with no exit other than the entrance. Nothing is said about how the street should end.
Right. That's the original meaning, although there may be more specific recent or regional usage of the term. It's really a linguistic holdover from a bygone era of polite speech, when people just didn't want to say the word "dead" especially in relation to where they live. You certainly wouldn't want a DEAD END sign in your face every time you came home from work . This was when people used to say "the C word" instead of cancer, and when "hell" was considered a four letter word. Of course real estate agents were all too eager to push the fancy frenchie term in their listings, whether the street terminated in a bulbous end or not.
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  #24  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I'm a native English speaker and I've absolutely never used the terms "cul-de-sac" and "dead end" interchangeably. I don't recall anyone ever using the terms interchangeably, either.
We native-English-speaking Americans (I assume you're also American) don't always get everything correct. Anyway, I agree that what you say is the normal usage of "cul-de-sac," but apparently it isn't necessarily the only usage.
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  #25  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 11:14 PM
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It's really a linguistic holdover from a bygone era of polite speech, when people just didn't want to say the word "dead" especially in relation to where they live.
Someone should tell these polite people what "cul" means in French!
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  #26  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jbermingham123 View Post
I wasnt gonna say it ... but if we are talking terminology, then for the record, the plural is "culs-de-sac"
True. Like mothers-in-law or attorneys-general.

Edited to add: As I think about it, sacks only have one bottom, so it's seems the plural of "cul-de-sac" should be culs-de-sacs."
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  #27  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bilbao58 View Post
Someone should tell these polite people what "cul" means in French!


It always sounded like "cull the sack"

Doesn't matter it's French! Who wouldn't want to live in such a classy and refined street? Much better than the crude and too-direct anglo dead end. So sayeth the real estate copy writer...

That raises the question, do French speakers also use the term to refer to dead end streets? Or is it one of those French terms only English speakers use?
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  #28  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
That raises the question, do French speakers also use the term to refer to dead end streets? Or is it one of those French terms only English speakers use?
It means the same in French: https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaire...l-de-sac/21022

In fact, not only does it literally mean "dead end street" in French, it also means "dead end" in the metaphorical way that "dead end" is also used in English.
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  #29  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 11:42 PM
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OK then there is no wiggle room, since unlike English, French is a strict prescriptive language. Take it up with the Académie Française .
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  #30  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I'm a native English speaker and I've absolutely never used the terms "cul-de-sac" and "dead end" interchangeably. I don't recall anyone ever using the terms interchangeably, either.
that's my experience as well.

and hence my confusion from the thread title.


my general rule of thumb:

- if a no outlet side-street ends in a circular turn-around drive, it's a "cul-de-sac".

- if a no outlet side-street ends in the 8' high concrete wall of a cemetery, it's a "dead-end".


if the tread had been titled "urban dead-ends", i would have known EXACTLY what the OP was talking about.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Mar 30, 2021 at 12:17 AM.
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  #31  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
that's my experience as well.

and hence my confusion from the thread title.


my general rule of thumb:

- if a no outlet side-street ends in a circular turn-around drive, it's a "cul de sac".

- if a no outlet side-street ends in the 8' high concrete wall of a cemetery, it's a "dead end".


if the tread had been titled "urban dead ends", i would have known EXACTLY what the OP was talking about.
I don't know... to me a cul-de-sac is intentionally cut off to be more quite or exclusive. Something like https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8568...7i16384!8i8192 in Chicago.
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  #32  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
I don't know... to me a cul-de-sac is intentionally cut off to be more quiet or exclusive. Something like https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8568...7i16384!8i8192 in Chicago.
completely agreed.

and that intentionality is why you end up with the courtesy turnaround for motorists instead of the street just abruptly ending in a wall or fence.

to me, an urban cul-de-sac in chicago means that peds and bikes can still get through, just not cars.

but an urban dead-end means "ain't nothing getting through that freight railroad embankment".
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Mar 30, 2021 at 12:28 AM.
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  #33  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
I don't know... to me a cul-de-sac is intentionally cut off to be more quite or exclusive. Something like https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8568...7i16384!8i8192 in Chicago.
Yeah that looks like a cul-de-sac, even though in order to exit you have to make a three-point-turn (or "flip a tit" in local parlance ).
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  #34  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 12:50 AM
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Wow, I had no idea the term would create confusion - chalk it up to one of those minor linguistic differences between Canada/US.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbao58 View Post
The Webster's, Oxford and even Larousse dictionaries all define 'cul-de-sac' simply as a street with no exit other than the entrance. Nothing is said about how the street should end.
Yeah, that's basically what I had in mind.


Here is a proper cul-de-sac in Quebec City complete with sign:
https://goo.gl/maps/xL88dQYBPnjF83b96
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  #35  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 1:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
my general rule of thumb:

- if a no outlet side-street ends in a circular turn-around drive, it's a "cul-de-sac".

- if a no outlet side-street ends in the 8' high concrete wall of a cemetery, it's a "dead-end".EXACTLY[/B] what the OP was talking about.
Its definitely the same here. Curious if this is a regional thing, or if its an American vs. Canadian thing?
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  #36  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 1:04 AM
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Here is an example from London:
https://goo.gl/maps/eKKhxUyysbRmRyUa8

Typically these lanes sit between higher density streets like this:
https://goo.gl/maps/NsDhpKJDvdD1hma4A

Architecture aside, interesting to note that Brooklyn does this type of thing in pretty much the same way:
https://goo.gl/maps/mX5cXak2UEcaScrK9

With surrounding streets like this:
https://goo.gl/maps/YhaE1dSQLPDvLP7M9
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  #37  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 1:06 AM
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Originally Posted by shappy View Post
Wow, I had no idea the term would create confusion - chalk it up to one of those minor linguistic differences between Canada/US.



Yeah, that's basically what I had in mind.


Here is a proper cul-de-sac in Quebec City complete with sign:
https://goo.gl/maps/xL88dQYBPnjF83b96
Now that creates even more confusion since that's clearly a through street connecting to an alley.
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  #38  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 1:48 AM
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London has too many to count, especially if one includes mews. Sometimes there is a pedestrian route through and sometimes there is not.

Neighbourhoods were built this way intentionally to limit through-traffic, much as they are in exurban parts of North America, though the built density is of course higher.
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  #39  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 2:04 AM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
Now that creates even more confusion since that's clearly a through street connecting to an alley.
Yeah, that ain't right.

Anyway, either urban cul-de-sacs or urban dead end streets are welcome in this thread. Basically no through traffic - way in is the only way out (lets say for cars only... if there is a pedestrian way out, that's fine).
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  #40  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 3:16 AM
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I used to live on this dead end street in Boston. It had little car or foot traffic as a result:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3462...7i16384!8i8192
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