[St. John's] The Official Project Thread

[kingcobra]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundlan...bron-reax.html

N.L. housing prices jump as Hebron signed
Last Updated: Thursday, August 21, 2008 | 12:47 PM NT Comments24Recommend18
CBC News
This house sold recently for $70,000 more than an identical one sold on the same street in 2007.This house sold recently for $70,000 more than an identical one sold on the same street in 2007. (CBC)

Real estate prices on the northeast Avalon peninsula have taken a steep jump with the signing of the Hebron offshore oil deal, market insiders say.

Steve Winters, a realtor with Remax, said he noticed the trend begin in the spring, as speculation swirled of a coming Hebron deal.

"We're starting to see the prices jump, and what $150,000 could get you last year is not going to get you near this year," Winters said, adding that people from Western Canada, in places such as Fort McMurray and Vancouver, are buying homes on the northeast Avalon sight unseen.

Winters said some people in Newfoundland may get pushed out of the market because of the sudden increase, and that home buyers may not be able to buy the house for which they just received mortgage approval from a bank.

In a new subdivision in the area, real estate agent Charlie Harris told CBC News houses there would jump in price after the Hebron deal was signed Wednesday. One house was on the market Wednesday, the same day the deal was signed, for $280,000.

"This house will be $320,000 or $325,000 probably after today," Harris said Wednesday. "Every house in the subdivision will go up by $50,000 to $60,000."
Business buzz

Not only is the real estate market feeling the effects of the new offshore deal, the business community in the region is heating up as well.

Ralph Wiseman, mayor of Paradise, a bedroom community just outside St. John's, said on the same day the Hebron agreement was signed, he reached an agreement with an offshore company that could see the town's Octagon Pond business park grown by 30 per cent. It was a deal Wiseman said the town had been working on for years. The mayor said he looks forward to more such business deals.

"Anybody, in my view, who wants to come to Paradise, I welcome them because we're going to welcome them with open arms," Wiseman said. "We're going to address the issues that we have and build a better town."

Meanwhile the group that represents offshore supply companies says people will start to see activity related to Hebron fairly quickly.

Bob Cadigan, CEO of Newfoundland and Labrador Oil and Gas Industries Association (NOIA), said the industry hasn't had activity like that which is expected from the Hebron deal for some time.

"We're going to see activity ramp up in the next 18 to 24 months," Cadigan predicted. "The assembly of the project team by the operators, some of the engineering work, it's going to start to have an impact fairly quickly.

"I mean, this is the biggest thing we've seen in one project since Hibernia days, so it's going to have a significant impact."

Construction of the gravity base structure of the Hebron rig is expected to begin in the province in 2012, and the entire project is predicted to create 3,000 jobs locally.

Hibernia was a $5.3-billion offshore project built in the late 1990s. Hebron is a $6-billion project.

The Hebron deal, finalized Wednesday, includes a 4.9 per cent equity stake, which the province will purchase for $110 million.

Premier Danny Williams said the deal may be worth up to $28 billion for the province, depending on royalties and the price of oil.

The earlier royalties estimate of $20 billion is based on a projection that oil would be worth $87 US per barrel.

[PostModernPrometheus]

Originally Posted by kingcobra

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundlan...bron-reax.html

In a new subdivision in the area, real estate agent Charlie Harris told CBC News houses there would jump in price after the Hebron deal was signed Wednesday. One house was on the market Wednesday, the same day the deal was signed, for $280,000.

"This house will be $320,000 or $325,000 probably after today," Harris said Wednesday. "Every house in the subdivision will go up by $50,000 to $60,000."
Business buzz


ouch! good for sellers...not so good if you were JUST about to buy or had not yet locked in a price :S

while in the short term this is absolutely fantastic news, i hope that when the hype clears long term sustainable market emerges

(ya i know...i sound like a broken record...i'm giong to stop ranting about this now...lol)

[Architype]

According to the real estate industry & statistics, the prices already jumped up about 22% in the past year, and now it sounds like another 10% to 20% increase. St. John's was still considerably below the average Canadian prices, so there is some room for an increase. I haven't seen any real figures, but I am guessing that this must be bringing the St. John's prices up to the level of Halifax, or more.

[Architype]

More construction is coming to MUN:

MUN gets $11M for building

Last Updated: Thursday, August 21, 2008 | 2:59 PM NT CBC News
Memorial University in Newfoundland and Labrador received an $11-million grant Thursday from the federal government to go toward a new building dedicated to human genetics research.

The money, announced at an event in St. John's, comes from the Research Hospital Fund component of the Canada Foundation for Innovation.

The money will go towards a new building near the Health Sciences Centre in St. John's on Memorial Campus.

Rest of article here:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundlan...2:r3:c0.194607

[Architype]

Some new light has been shed on the eleven storey hotel proposal at Water and Prescott. According to the following article no one on council wants it built in the proposed form, and will require that it be scaled down to six stories.

From an article in the Scope (Aug 14) by Sarah Smellie -
http://thescope.ca/2008/08/look-up-way-up/#more-3182

Here's the deal: Southwest Properties recently proposed the construction of a four star hotel, complete with restaurant, conference rooms and underground parking, at that very site. The catch? Their initial proposal was for a two part building, with a four story section facing Water Street and an eleven story section facing the harbor.

True, the developers need to make the project viable, having the Water St side at four stories is logical. The 11 storey portion would still be lower in height than it's two neighboring office towers. A views study would show that there would be minor impact on views because the two neighboring buildings would make it almost invisible from up the hill and the Rooms.

In his epic reign, Andy Wells oversaw a number of bonus area buildings, such as the TD building, the Scotiabank building, and Mile One Centre. This is perhaps the first time a development issue this sensitive has been in front of council since he left council. Their final ruling will certainly set a precedent for the inevitable slew of similar proposals that will come as the city gets bigger.

Well, that's kind of wrong. Although Wells may have been a councilor, he was mayor only from September 30, 1997 to March 3, 2008. The TD building went up around 1980, and the Scotiabank building in 1987, years before. Only the Mile One Centre and the Delta extension went up during his term. Don't blame this on Andy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...d_and_Labrador

So far, none of the councilors are very keen on the 11 storey proposal.

"It's not acceptable at all," said Galgay.

They've asked Southwest Properties to scale things down a bit. Ken O'Brien says Southwest has submitted a tamer proposal for a hotel which would be six storeys high-and it will emphasize, financially, they think this is the smallest they can go. Both proposals are being assessed for bonus area suitability.

Contrasted with an eleven storey building, that six storey building will no doubt be far more appealing to some.

After all, as Galgay points out, "something has got to go there."

But does it have to be a hotel?

Ward Councilor Debbie Hanlon doesn't think so.

"Does it have to be a hotel?" - No, that is a prime site for an office building, but market forces are making office buildings less attractive to developers, and often the largest buildings going up today in Canada are in fact hotels and condos.

"something has got to go there." - Not really; often developers will leave land vacant for years and use them as parking lots.

Likely, a six storey building would have a larger footprint and unattractive massing (shape); or it might require a downsizing of rooms. It likely won't fit in any better with the heritage theme than 11 storeys. Way to go to discourage any sensible development in the city. Who wants to build or stay in a hotel on the ugly mess of Kenmount Road or beside the airport, far away from the city center? However, there may be sites available in the West end of downtown. As much as it seems fair to limit development in the heritage area, it is the entire downtown, and there simply won't be enough capacity available in the existing building inventory for hotels and offices, etc.

A reader posted this Comment to the article:

sirs: why is everyone afraid to mention who the "SouthWest" people are? (SouthWest?! this is the North East, and why are we listening to **** from ****?) Why doesn't anyone mention that the owners of the property are Tommy-boy Williams (the Premier's brother and bad poser on the Odea-Earle advertisements) and Ken Marshall brother of Danny's former partner in the legal business?
Can you say old boys network?
neither CBC nor you all nor anyone brings this up - why not?!

Entire Article here:
http://thescope.ca/2008/08/look-up-way-up/#more-3182

The attitude towards anyone from outside the province is disrespectful, parochial, and xenophobic. Southwest were the only ones with the vision to make Atlantic Place viable again. It's interesting, however, it should make no difference who the owners of the property are; many people do support new developments such as this.

[Architype]

Here's an interesting article about a vacant cul-de-sac opposite the University off Elizabeth Avenue. It has stood undeveloped for years during the lower real estate market period. The city has refused to zone up for more density because of the usual NIMBY reasons. That area near the university could be well used with high demand, and is a prime location for more densification in an area where few or almost no apartment buildings or condos exist.

Though it’s fully paved and ready for development, Halliday Place has no houses. Ken O’Brien, manager of planning and information with the City of St. John’s, says he remembers the cul-de-sac’s lots being for sale way back in the ‘80s when he was at MUN.

City Council has since denied two requests for development—one for apartment buildings and another for row housing. Both required a re-zoning of the space that Council’s planning committee did not support.

Neighbours were concerned that the apartment buildings would basically become another student residence, says O’Brien.

That's some kind of discrimination, isn't it? As a result of the student housing shortage, many homes and basement suites are already rented to students.

Entire article with photos here:
http://thescope.ca/2008/08/halliday-place/#more-3179

[PostModernPrometheus]

Originally Posted by Architype

Here's an interesting article about a vacant cul-de-sac opposite the University off Elizabeth Avenue.

*sic*


That's some kind of discrimination, isn't it? As a result of the student housing shortage, many homes and basement suites are already rented to students.

Entire article with photos here:
http://thescope.ca/2008/08/halliday-place/#more-3179

very interesting article - i often wondered what was going on with this parcel of land - & the logic is a little baffling:

Neighbours were concerned that the apartment buildings would basically become another student residence, says O’Brien.

Years later, the area was outfitted with barricades to prevent people from using it as a parking space. The pavement is now home to brazen weeds and demolished electronics.

the neighbours, by and large as things currently stand, consits of a large number of students! perhaps, by "neighbours" the article refers to the few loud persistent antidevelopment voices that seem to exist in every city :S anyone nkow when the last proposal went through to rezone?? was this relatively recent (i.e., since the "andy" years??)

[kingcobra]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundlan...otel-vote.html

Downtown 6-storey hotel one step closer to reality
Last Updated: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 | 12:35 PM NT Comments3Recommend5
CBC News

A controversial hotel development in downtown St. John's moved through another step in the approval process at a city council meeting Monday evening.

On request from council, a revised plan for a hotel at the corner of Water and Prescott streets was submitted by architects on behalf of a numbered company.

The hotel presented in the plan is smaller than the original one unveiled in early July. The revised plan will see the hotel stand eight storeys from its front on Harbour Drive, south of Water Street, while the original plan was for the building to stand 11 storeys at Harbour Drive.

The city used computer-generated images to show how the developer's plan will change the look of Water Street and the view planes from different points in the city.

Coun. Keith Coombs said the generated images of what the 140-room hotel will look like will help residents make a decision when the plan goes to the public hearing stage.

"Unless, as I say I'm wrong, the vast majority of people will say, 'OK, this is OK for the downtown.'"

Coun. Shannie Duff said Monday night's vote to allow the plan to go on to the next stage only allowed the developer to prepare a land-use assessment report, or LUAR.

"Going to a LUAR is essentially saying, 'we as a council feel that this is acceptable, and now we're just going to hear what the public has to say.'"

The land-use assessment report is expected to take several months to complete. City council will then decide if it will hold public meetings on the hotel proposal.

[Architype]

^Thanks for posting the article.

The city used computer-generated images to show how the developer's plan will change the look of Water Street and the view planes from different points in the city.

Coun. Keith Coombs said the generated images of what the 140-room hotel will look like will help residents make a decision when the plan goes to the public hearing stage.

So they shaved off three storeys, or roughly 10 meters. I think this will look ok as long as the design is good. The article doesn't mention if it will still be four storeys on the Water Street facade. I think the height isn't as important for this site as the design and bulkiness of the building (Atlantic Place as compared to the Fortis building - Fortis is a more pleasing design even though it's taller). When the renderings are available we will see.

If you take the existing rendering and remove three storeys it looks like this:

[Architype]

It seems a bit ridiculous, but some councilors still feel that six stories is too tall for Water Street:

Mixed Reviews on Hotel
August 26, 2008

The city of St. John's will be doing a Land Use Assessment for a hotel proposed for Water Street, even though the Hotel's height does not fit regulations. The six storey development is planned for 123-125 Water Street. Councilor Keith Coombs has reviewed information provided to council showing the streetscape from several perspectives with the six storey hotel option; he feels the development will fit well into the downtown.

Some other councilors do not agree. Councilor Frank Galgay says the project should be in line with city by-laws and regulations . Councilor Art Puddister thinks the city needs a 5 star hotel in the area.

Councilor Shannie Duff says the area is very important, and feels the developer should go back to the drawing board. The majority of council feel a Land Use Assessment Report will do no harm. That will be followed by a public meeting.

Source:
http://www.vocm.com/news-info.asp?id=30780

[HomeInMyShoes]

Make it any smaller and the development will suffer Edmonton-syndrome. Where you can't build tall because of the FAR overlay and the city centre airport so you get cheap-ass half-baked crap stucco design because it's not economically viable to do anything else.

If they think that area is important, they should look at the travesty that is 95% of Harbour street. It's right on the pier and the usefulness of it is nil. Where are the merchants on harbour, the fish markets, the cafes. There's lots on Water and Duckworth.

I look at Harbour and think what an absolute waste. Sure there's the ticky-tacky pier 7 down by The Keg, but there should be so much more. Sat outside at Cora's on Saturday and it was beautiful, too bad there's no place else on Harbour.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

Make it any smaller and the development will suffer Edmonton-syndrome. Where you can't build tall because of the FAR overlay and the city centre airport so you get cheap-ass half-baked crap stucco design because it's not economically viable to do anything else.

Good point. There is newer one 3 floor condo on Bonaventure near the basilica which looks quite good in terms of materials and finishing; it's designed to blend with the basilica and it's very pricey. Materials and the quality of development are important, and are connected to 'economies of scale'. What is needed is for developers to be given some concessions in return for amenities to the city, such as public spaces, parks, heritage restoration, etc. which are paid for by the developer.

If they think that area is important, they should look at the travesty that is 95% of Harbour street. It's right on the pier and the usefulness of it is nil. Where are the merchants on harbour, the fish markets, the cafes. There's lots on Water and Duckworth.

I look at Harbour and think what an absolute waste. Sure there's the ticky-tacky pier 7 down by The Keg, but there should be so much more. Sat outside at Cora's on Saturday and it was beautiful, too bad there's no place else on Harbour.

They are trying to come up with ideas for that, but I think it has to be more than just cosmetic. That pier and street was built in the early 60's; before that it was all finger piers and strictly a working harbour. There have been studies done on the Harbour street (Harbour Drive) and they concluded that it should remain a street featuring backs of buildings rather than fronts of buildings. I'm not convinced that is the best idea. I've read some of the planning studies done on St. John's and they usually turn out to be a bunch of "we can't build anything tall or modern, keep everything the same".

The thing is, heritage preservation is sometimes at odds with a working developing downtown when you have almost complete restriction throughout the entire downtown. There won't be enough existing building stock to accomodate much growth. What will happen is bad development on the fringes of the city where everthing is car dependant.

[HomeInMyShoes]

^Cosmetic might be enough for Harbour. If you tossed in a couple of two-story artist-galleries and a couple of coffee shops with openable front doors/windows for the summer along the stretch between Prescott and Beck's Cove leading into George Street it would be a million times better than what it is. Add in a bit of landscaping and don't put up those silly streetlamp banners and there's a use to it. There's some fun stuff already. The little alleyway with the graffiti between Harbour and Water is quite fun, albeit a bit sanitized.

With the cruise ship in the harbour on Sunday the amount of people on the streets was amazing. Too bad downtown wasn't a quarter as busy during the winter.

Part of the problem is that the galleries and coffee shops need a bit of critical mass to survive and not just be summer temporary hot spots. Getting tourists out snowshoeing and enjoying the view that is Newfoundland in the winter is needed to help downtown grow over the long haul.

[Architype]

When the harbour (sewage) clean-up is done I think you will see some changes. The smell never really bothered me too much, but then I wasn't eating dinner there. I actually like the old building rear facades, they have character and some grit. Cafes, studios, shops etc would all be good, as well as some park areas for sitting, and landscaping. Whatever became of the design thing they had a few months ago? The other thing is, you need more hotels etc to generate some of that activity. Some of these things should be provided by developers in return for more density allowances.

[HomeInMyShoes]

^The only smell concern I've heard is not to take the harbour cruise.

I was going to suggest that the Prescott/Water site could actually be a park and the East gateway into the Harbour street area.

I can't find anything on the design stuff. I can only find the city page for the Harbour cleanup project.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

^The only smell concern I've heard is not to take the harbour cruise.

I was going to suggest that the Prescott/Water site could actually be a park and the East gateway into the Harbour street area.

I can't find anything on the design stuff. I can only find the city page for the Harbour cleanup project.

I read a comment somewhere about that Prescott/Water site being used as a park. There is however, the relatively new Harbourside Park just to the East, so I think it might be a bit redundant to put amother park that close.

For planning studies, if you dig in the City website under planning, somewhere you will find a few PDF files of planning studies.

Here's a link: http://www.stjohns.ca/cityservices/planning/index.jsp

Notice the phrase "Downtown Building Control", as if it's a dangerous thing.

[HomeInMyShoes]

^It's like dog control. Too bad we couldn't get developers to pick up after their buildings like we get pet owners to pick up after their dogs.

[Architype]

Here's some pics of Harbourside Park I took about 4 years ago. Notice the back of the King George Building is about 5 stories; the new hotel just up the street will be about 3 stories taller:



And here's the best one I have handy of part of Harbour Drive; it's used mostly as parking lots, but I like that the backs of the buildings are visible. There doesn't even appear to be any sidewalk on that side. The new hotel would be mostly hidden behind the white (Fortis) building. Fortis is actually 13 stories above Hr Drive:

(credits mine)

[kingcobra]

I wonder if the 'Bubbles' are already gone from the harbour. It is one of the biggest eyesores in the city.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by kingcobra

I wonder if the 'Bubbles' are already gone from the harbour. It is one of the biggest eyesores in the city.

^I guess the bubbles will be gone when the harbour project is finished.
___________________________

Links to the George Street Redevelopment Study:

http://www.stjohns.ca/csj/NewsDetails?id=732

"The concept plan proposes a new street surface that eliminates sidewalks, makes George Street into a pedestrian street with occasional access for vehicles during limited hours, revamps the outdoor seating areas, improves the outdoor stage and seating area at Prince Edward Plaza, moves the taxi lay-bys to Water Street and New Gower Street, and introduces a small-scale outdoor market at the east end near Yellowbelly Corner."

PDF File: http://www.stjohns.ca/cityservices/p...tudy_Final.pdf