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  #7521  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 7:27 PM
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Originally Posted by CherryCreek View Post
With Ryan formally writing the obituary on Two Tabor (our favorite Black Swan),
I'd be interested in people's thoughts on the failure of this one to get done in this cycle. What's the best explanation? Is it:

(A) Owners/developers too slow, too cautious, or lacked sufficient resources to get a "sure winner" in a five star location developed in one of Denver's greatest boom cycles. Shame on them.

(B) This development didn't happen for good reason: The market dynamics were never there to support it. Downtown can't support another structure of this size at the moment and the owners/developers should be congratulated for having avoided a loser project.

(C) A combination of (A) ad (B): this project could and should have been built, and the owners/developers could have had a great, successful project if they had gotten their sh*t together earlier, but by the time they were ready to take a serious look at going forward, (B) had become true.
I’d say more B. It’s not that central Denver can’t handle that much new office space but the CBD kind of sucks from a marketing standpoint. Especially from a tech perspective which is driving the majority of the growth, they want to be in trendy areas where their workers can live work and play. CBD doesn’t really have that going for it. Union Station, LoDo, RiNo is taking a lot of that demand and probably will continue to for a while. I live off 20th and Cali and this area including Tabor doesn’t have much going for it. It’s like Denver and developers forgot about it when LoDo and US came around. I think if focus came back into this area, more housing and retail was developed so it was more 24 hours and destination based, I think demand would rise to justify a high rise. But it’s seems as if CBD offices are more of a bargain than truly desired.

Oh and 16th Street mall sucks. I really wish they could make it into more of a mall than restaurant row/ pass through. A smaller Michigan Avenue would be great. Any ideas on why the retail is having a hard time? With as many housing units built within walking distance, you think the demand and traffic would be there to support solid retail apart from CC.
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  #7522  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 7:51 PM
DenvertoLA DenvertoLA is offline
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Originally Posted by Robert.hampton View Post
Thats a huge bummer, do you know why? NAVA's stuff looks great but I notice they are having a hard time selling all of the Lakehouse units......1.2 million for a 2 bedroom 1200 square foot condo with an $800 monthly HOA might have somehting to do with that.......
Daaang. That one was only 12 stories, but it was my favorite design for sure.
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  #7523  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 7:53 PM
SirLucasTheGreat SirLucasTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by Ich View Post
I’d say more B. It’s not that central Denver can’t handle that much new office space but the CBD kind of sucks from a marketing standpoint. Especially from a tech perspective which is driving the majority of the growth, they want to be in trendy areas where their workers can live work and play. CBD doesn’t really have that going for it. Union Station, LoDo, RiNo is taking a lot of that demand and probably will continue to for a while. I live off 20th and Cali and this area including Tabor doesn’t have much going for it. It’s like Denver and developers forgot about it when LoDo and US came around. I think if focus came back into this area, more housing and retail was developed so it was more 24 hours and destination based, I think demand would rise to justify a high rise. But it’s seems as if CBD offices are more of a bargain than truly desired.

Oh and 16th Street mall sucks. I really wish they could make it into more of a mall than restaurant row/ pass through. A smaller Michigan Avenue would be great. Any ideas on why the retail is having a hard time? With as many housing units built within walking distance, you think the demand and traffic would be there to support solid retail apart from CC.
You touch on a lot of issues that I think inspired the Downtown Denver Partnership to go about a rebranding strategy for the CBD. You might have heard the story a couple weeks back where people were looking to have the CBD referred to as upper downtown. However, even with Union Station almost completely built out aside from two lots right beside the Hilton Garden inn, I suspect that there is going to be much more residential development in Arapahoe square and Golden Triangle than in any area that one could call the CBD or upper downtown. We should be trying to reinvigorate that area though considering how much we depend on the 16th Street Mall for sales tax. Hopefully the 16th Street Mall reconstruction will help in that regard.
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  #7524  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 8:24 PM
twister244 twister244 is online now
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Good god those Bell Tower renderings look atrocious..... From the west the building looks decent, but man that large fraction of the building with the concrete "wall" just looks..... ugly.

The Confluence wasn't perfect by any means, but at least they put an exterior over the concrete to make the building looks somewhat visually appealing.
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  #7525  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 8:34 PM
DenvertoLA DenvertoLA is offline
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It looks like they are using cheap ass paneling on the bell tower. If they want to demand high rent, they need to get some marble or granite on that thing
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  #7526  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 9:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryCreek View Post
With Ryan formally writing the obituary on Two Tabor (our favorite Black Swan),
I'd be interested in people's thoughts on the failure of this one to get done in this cycle. What's the best explanation? Is it:
Not sure when wong will appear so I'll fill in for him.

The biggest reason I'd have to believe is that Callahan Capital Properties was acquired by Ivanhoé Cambridge in September of 2018. The last thing they have announced in the states is a joint venture. https://ivanhoecambridge.com/en/news...ack-deep-ellum
Quote:
November 22 2019
(DALLAS) – Hines, along with partners Westdale Real Estate Investment and Management (Westdale), and Ivanhoé Cambridge, announced today that they have completed the purchase of a land parcel at 2700 Commerce Street in Dallas’ booming Deep Ellum neighborhood, just east of the city’s CBD
They also recently bought a significant equity stake in a German project. They also announced a strategic partnership with The We Company.

It makes sense that in assimilating Callahan Capital Properties it would take Ivanhoé Cambridge some time to decide what to do with all the asset pieces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenvertoLA View Post
It looks like they are using cheap ass paneling on the bell tower. If they want to demand high rent, they need to get some marble or granite on that thing
I still like Bell Tower just fine, even better now. It's so cutting edge, don't you think?
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  #7527  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
Good god those Bell Tower renderings look atrocious..... From the west the building looks decent, but man that large fraction of the building with the concrete "wall" just looks..... ugly.

The Confluence wasn't perfect by any means, but at least they put an exterior over the concrete to make the building looks somewhat visually appealing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DenvertoLA View Post
It looks like they are using cheap ass paneling on the bell tower. If they want to demand high rent, they need to get some marble or granite on that thing
Hold on to your opinions for just a minute... This review is for massing and form only. Materials will come later. From the Staff Report of the submittal:

Quote:
Although materials are not confirmed
at this time, the Tower will be
constructed of modern materials that
are a departure from the traditional
masonry materials of Lower
Downtown.

-

The Tower has been designed to be of
its own time. It has a modern design
and will be constructed of modern
materials.
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  #7528  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2019, 12:32 AM
SirLucasTheGreat SirLucasTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
Thanks for the info Dirt! I am semi-confident this will get underway.....

I badly want to see that parking lot waste-land get developed. We will slowly, but without a strong catalyst (like US) it will probably happen one lot at a time over the years.

On a separate note, based on this article, I would totally expect more apartment projects to get underway - https://milehighcre.com/denver-apart...t-record-high/

I go by the 26th/Alcott site daily on my way to work and still no movement there. I would expect that project to get underway soon.....
This is a very interesting article. I am afraid that Denver's cost of living might soon see another significant spike when accounting for the incredibly low vacancy rate, the apartment absorption rate, and the incredibly low unemployment rate. Hopefully more units in 2020 will begin construction because 2019 has objectively been a lull year for new residential groundbreakings. In Golden Triangle, there are five towers that might reasonably start construction in the next year with one of them actively in site preparation. With X Denver, the Kenect Denver tower, and the Evolve Towers, Arapahoe Square might soon see some significant development as well. I'm not sure what our next actual skyscraper will be after Block 162.
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  #7529  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2019, 12:50 AM
twister244 twister244 is online now
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Thanks for that info Ryan! That definitely helps quell my fears and rising anxiety.....
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  #7530  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2019, 1:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ich View Post
It’s not that central Denver can’t handle that much new office space but the CBD kind of sucks from a marketing standpoint. Especially from a tech perspective which is driving the majority of the growth, they want to be in trendy areas where their workers can live work and play. CBD doesn’t really have that going for it. Union Station, LoDo, RiNo is taking a lot of that demand and probably will continue to for a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat View Post
You touch on a lot of issues that I think inspired the Downtown Denver Partnership to go about a rebranding strategy for the CBD. You might have heard the story a couple weeks back where people were looking to have the CBD referred to as upper downtown.
While LoDo, Union Station, and RiNo have certainly captured a lot of tech firms locating to the Downtown Denver area, there have been several big tech companies settle in the traditional high-rise CBD part of downtown, such as SendGrid, Gusto, Personal Capital, Full Contact, Vertafore, Ibotta, Marketo, Evolve, and Faction. There was a big Denver Business Journal article about it recently. Here are a few paragraphs from that article (the whole article is behind a paywall):

Quote:
Denver's tech scene is growing up and moving up.

Downtown high-rises built in the late '70s and early '80s are seeing new energy as tech tenants plant their flags in or near the city's Central Business District.

The movement has been driven by tech companies that may historically have favored LoDo (Lower Downtown) and the Central Platte Valley, in smaller scale buildings with fewer tenants but hip spaces.

Now, these companies are gaining employees and looking for better deals in rental cost and space availability while maintaining access to the people drawn to the area.

"Tech companies are focused on downtown Denver for a number of reasons; one of the main drivers is a proliferation of a young and talented workforce that now lives in and around downtown," said Andrew Blaustein, managing director and tenant representation specialist at Newmark Knight Frank.

"There has been a philosophical shift in how Denver has grown up," Johnson said.

Tech companies originally wanted small, satellite offices outside of the Central Business District in areas like the Central Platte Valley and LoDo, according to Johnson. Younger tech talent wanted to live, work and play in the same area, driving a lot of office demand in the Market St. and Wynkoop St. areas, said Rick Door, also a managing principal at Cresa's Denver office.

But that isn't the case anymore, because as those companies grew and matured, they couldn't stay there, Johnson said.
The Platte Valley and LoDo areas' lack of supply and cost of rent helped drive the tenant migration into other downtown areas, said Door.

With more hotels, housing, and other amenities continuing to be added in the CBD, plus the city's/DDP's new emphasis on placemaking in this part of downtown, I suspect this trend will continue.

Also, "CBD" and "Upper Downtown" are not synonymous. The Central Business District is considered everything downtown other than LoDo, Golden Triangle, Arapahoe Square, or Auraria/CPV. In other words, everything from the alley between Market and Larimer to Colfax, Speer to 20th, plus the area north of the Capitol around the "cash register" building. It is the southern "upper" part from Champa south that was the focus of the recently completed Upper Downtown Plan. The term "Upper Downtown" isn't new, just the name of the district for that part of the CBD.

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  #7531  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2019, 2:17 AM
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Sam Hill Sam Hill is offline
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You know how there are a couple folks here that actually like those cardboard, faux-classical towers in Golden Triangle that the rest of us hate (including me)? Well now I'm starting to understand how they must feel. I am not understanding why seemingly everyone thinks these preliminary Bell Tower renderings are so hideous. They look great to me.

Maybe I need glasses...
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  #7532  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2019, 6:29 PM
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Interesting article I found about River Mile that I don't think has been posted here yet:

Elitch redevelopment to change Denver – but before the cycle ends?

Quote:
After environmental remediation and river improvements, Phase I focuses on redeveloping the park’s 17-acre parking lot, which will yield around 4 million square feet of rentable space, two-thirds of which are slated for office use. Along with courting tech tenants, Revesco hopes to attract an anchor tenant in excess of 250,000 sf. There are only a handful of companies of this scale locally, which is why it will be imperative that Revesco look beyond Colorado to lure a tenant of this size and magnitude. It’s an ambitious undertaking, and one that, if successful, would have an enormous impact on the office sector and Denver as a center of commerce.

Revesco has already begun to search both domestically and internationally for a candidate and plans to use this preconstruction period to strategize about how best to identify and pursue a Fortune 500 enterprise whose real estate needs align with Revesco’s vision.
Also, a rendering I found for us to drool over (which I think may have already been posted here, but it can't be posted enough damnit!):


https://sararch.com/projects/in-prog...e-master-plan/
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  #7533  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2019, 6:55 PM
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yea that is like 2 years old
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  #7534  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2019, 8:06 PM
DenvertoLA DenvertoLA is offline
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The view of the bell tower from Market looking west is impressive. If it is made with great materials, it should be a winner.

This is a Buzz property right? How hopeful are we?
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  #7535  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2019, 1:45 AM
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He's not a developer, so is a developer attached to this project yet?

Last edited by The Dirt; Nov 29, 2019 at 5:00 PM.
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  #7536  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2019, 4:39 PM
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Oh my Stapleton; you've sinned again

https://denverite.com/2019/11/21/a-n...r-east-denver/



I don't subscribe to the conservative talking points about "assimilating" and being able to speak English fluently for first generation immigrants. But most immigrant communities have offspring meaning most households have bilingual kids capable of interpreting things.

Let's see if we can complicate things even more.

Now square that with this statement.

This sounds like anti-gentrification, anti-development aside from more low income housing.

Perhaps (in my best Elizabeth Warren voice) there should be a 25% property tax surcharge for people living in Stapleton so we can keep taxes low for the East Colfax crowd but provide more housing for the poor immigrants. These immigrants may be happy as a lark but some white people believe it's not good enough and the residents of Stapleton should pay up.


I have zero problem with diversity; in fact I totally enjoy it. If the city wants to promote through zoning protection an area for immigrants that's fine. The diversity is likely more interesting than a bunch of shiny new mid-rise apartments anyway.

Pick your poison.
You do realize that Stapleton residents already pay the highest property taxes in Denver...by a landslide? Stapleton residents pay double property tax for the same as someone that owns in Wash Park (or anywhere else in Denver) for the same value of house. Stapleton residents already pay enough....more than enough.

Plus, these east plan meetings don't even include Stapleton anyway.
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  #7537  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2019, 5:58 PM
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Originally Posted by CONative View Post
You do realize that Stapleton residents already pay the highest property taxes in Denver...by a landslide? Stapleton residents pay double property tax for the same as someone that owns in Wash Park (or anywhere else in Denver) for the same value of house. Stapleton residents already pay enough....more than enough.

Plus, these east plan meetings don't even include Stapleton anyway.

The homes in the Riverfront Park/Union Station area are similar, with a property tax rate about double the standard city rate due to the metropolitan districts that cover the area.
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  #7538  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2019, 8:03 PM
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TakeFive TakeFive is offline
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Originally Posted by The Dirt View Post
He's not a developer, so is a developer attached to this project yet?
The developer who has this site under contract is Kairoi Residential out of San Antonio TX. The previous iteration before the name change/reorganization from two entities into one was the Lynd Company. Their first Denver project was the impressive "Joule" apartments along Speer Blvd. They also built what is now named the Edison at RiNo which was acclaimed by all at DenverInfill.

Lynd was active in Chicago which is where they connected to Chicago-based Valerio Dewalt Train Associates architects. With an office in Denver Kairoi continues to use this team.

Kairoi also lists "6x Guadalupe" in Austin among their accomplishments. It was a a JV with Lincoln Properties for the office portion. It's a 66-story dandy designed by Gensler.
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  #7539  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2019, 8:23 PM
DenvertoLA DenvertoLA is offline
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oh shit, so there's good hope on this one. noice
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  #7540  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2019, 8:26 PM
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TakeFive TakeFive is offline
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Originally Posted by DenverInfill View Post
While LoDo, Union Station, and RiNo have certainly captured a lot of tech firms locating to the Downtown Denver area, there have been several big tech companies settle in the traditional high-rise CBD part of downtown, such as SendGrid, Gusto, Personal Capital, Full Contact, Vertafore, Ibotta, Marketo, Evolve, and Faction.

With more hotels, housing, and other amenities continuing to be added in the CBD, plus the city's/DDP's new emphasis on placemaking in this part of downtown, I suspect this trend will continue.

It is the southern "upper" part from Champa south that was the focus of the recently completed Upper Downtown Plan. The term "Upper Downtown" isn't new, just the name of the district for that part of the CBD.

Well done!

But Dude, you failed to mention one of the best benefits of (especially) Upper Downtown. "other amenities" doesn't suffice. All these tenants have access to curbside service or no more than short walk to work.

Of course, I'm talking about Light Rail. The D, F and H Lines all run through the heart of this area and all have great ridership numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverInfill View Post
The homes in the Riverfront Park/Union Station area are similar, with a property tax rate about double the standard city rate due to the metropolitan districts that cover the area.
Too lazy to check but you might know. Isn't some of this due to residents paying back original infrastructure investments?
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