Where Is The Rust Belt?

[llamaorama]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ the billion dollar question for Gary Works (and the other two nearby integrated mills) going forward in this century is whether ownership (whoever that will eventually be) will make the major investment to revamp the plant into a more eco-friendly DRI-type operation or just shut the old blast furnaces down and close the plant altogether.

It's absolutely of vital national interest/security for the US to maintain some degree of native ability to make primary steel from mineral ore, but those dirty old blast furnaces will have to go away at some point, especially given all the newer technologies maturing today to separate the iron from the oxygen in much cleaner/less energy intensive ways.

But it's gonna take serious money to upgrade an operation like Gary Works. Could be cheaper to just start from scratch somewhere else.

However, the bottom of lake Michigan will remain as good a place to make steel as it has for the past 100+ years.

We'll see.....

Yeah, traditional blast furnaces are incompatible with reducing GHG emissions to fight climate change. I've seen articles about this subject online, apparently the solution would be to use hydrogen gas in a process to convert raw iron ore from the ground into steel. Also making those processed iron pellets works better for the US steel industry because there are a ton of steel plants in the South that have electric arc furnaces which can use them. Instead of a single site facility that has a fixed production capacity that cannot be lowered or raised to meet market pricing changes and that's impossible to build nowadays because of economics, pollution regulations and overseas competition, the industry would produce direct reduced iron with clean fossil-fuel free sources of energy closer to where the ore is mined or in places with surplus energy sources, and they'd be shipped to small plants everywhere.

In Middletown Ohio the steel mill there will close their old blast furnace, but will still be able to make raw steel from ore by creating direct reduced iron pellets with hydrogen. The pellets will go straight into the existing mill there so it will still be an "integrated" facility sort of.

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news...-green-economy

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

when you arrive on the shores of lake michigan from 100 F St. Louis and the gulf and southern Atlantic have turned to hot bathwater it feels like a different kind of paradise.

i’m guessing people from Phoenix feel the same way about the cool Pacific. Not sure theres a more contrasting under 5 hour drive in summer in the midwest.

Not sure, even when it's really hot outside going into frigid water is never pleasant. (BTW nice to see you posting here again, it's been a while, no?)

Personally, I find that even "hot" water (which in reality is not actually close to bathwater ) is nice and refreshing. From personal experience, on a hot day in August in Southern California going into the Pacific is unpleasant, while on a hot day in August on the FL Space Coast going into the Atlantic is enjoyable.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by lio45

Not sure, even when it's really hot outside going into frigid water is never pleasant.

Right, but "frigid water" is highly subjective.

Some people find 75 degree water to be refreshing.

Others find it too cold to tolerate for very long.



for reference, here's my personal water temperature swimming guide:

- 55 is full-blown nuts without a wetsuit, cold shock can actually stun you to death at this temp.

- 60 is still totally fucking cold. Wetsuit required for anything other than a quick jump in/jump out dip.

- 65 is doable for hardier individuals without a wetsuit for short spurts, but you will still need to get out periodically to prevent hypothermia.

- 70 is still pretty chilly, but you can warm up to it. Experience helps.

- 75 is nice and refreshing, a lovely temp for swimming on a hot summer day.

- 80 is bathwater.

- 85 is almost getting too warm, not very refreshing on a really hot summer day.


Source: a entire lifetime spent swimming in the great lakes

[lio45]

Of course it's subjective. Even for the same individual, it can vary. I was likely even more hardy than you (had no problem swimming in Canadian lakes) but then I got used to warmer water. I did realize this very suddenly when my gf's grandmother passed while I was on the FL coast in August, I had to drive to Gaspé for the funeral, and while my gf who always stayed behind when I went to FL (for several reasons) could swim as usual in the bay there, I just couldn't get in there beyond just dipping one toe. (A couple days earlier I was in the water the Atlantic near the tropics, and looks like I had gotten used to that.)

The only non-subjective metric is as you say the risk of hypothermia, and when it's not there, then you can get used to it. I am sure I'd get used to the water at the southernmost end of Lake Michigan, eventually. I would simply have to make sure what I have in FL can run without me ever showing up (or just sell it).

[Crawford]

Also, when people talk about "bathwater" I don't think they're usually referring to the Atlantic, esp. not Space Coast/North FL. It's usually the Gulf, which gets extremely warm. Maybe Miami/Keys with global warming, but still uncommon.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Also, when people talk about "bathwater" I don't think they're usually referring to the Atlantic, esp. not Space Coast/North FL. It's usually the Gulf, which gets extremely warm. Maybe Miami/Keys with global warming, but still uncommon.

Agree. I haven't been in the Gulf often, I recall going to the beach and into the water near Corpus Christi (visiting the aircraft carrier there was a treat!) and it was warm but not that hot. I don't ever recall water in the USA that could be called bathwater by my current standards.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by lio45

Agree. I haven't been in the Gulf often, I recall going to the beach and into the water near Corpus Christi (visiting the aircraft carrier there was a treat!) and it was warm but not that hot. I don't ever recall water in the USA that could be called bathwater by my current standards.

Depends on when you went. It can get pretty warm in the mid to late summer. Galveston in August is like taking a salty bath.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by JManc

Depends on when you went. It can get pretty warm in the mid to late summer. Galveston in August is like taking a salty bath.

When writing that post I was actually trying to recall what time of year it was, because I have distinct memories of us on the Lexington and at the beach and I remember that it was sunny and that there wasn't a shitload of snow on the ground and we weren't in winter coats, which is how I can usually tell whether a distant memory is from summer or from winter ...

[benp]

Originally Posted by lio45

Agree. I haven't been in the Gulf often, I recall going to the beach and into the water near Corpus Christi (visiting the aircraft carrier there was a treat!) and it was warm but not that hot. I don't ever recall water in the USA that could be called bathwater by my current standards.

My children grew up going to Gulf beaches (Galveston and Surfside). The first time they went to a Florida beach they were afraid of the water, because for the first time they could see their own feet when standing in it. It took awhile before they would go out past their knees.

They never got the chance to swim in the Great Lakes, but we did go with them several times to the sand beach at Beaver Island in the Niagara River, which tends to be within a couple degrees of Lake Erie, usually in the low 70s during late summer. It confused them that it wasn't salty, and it was cooler than Gulf waters, but not having to walk through tar balls or avoid jellyfish made it a winner.

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Right, but "frigid water" is highly subjective.

Some people find 75 degree water to be refreshing.

Others find it too cold to tolerate for very long.



for reference, here's my personal water temperature swimming guide:

- 55 is full-blown nuts without a wetsuit, cold shock can actually stun you to death at this temp.

- 60 is still totally fucking cold. Wetsuit required for anything other than a quick jump in/jump out dip.

- 65 is doable for hardier individuals without a wetsuit for short spurts, but you will still need to get out periodically to prevent hypothermia.

- 70 is still pretty chilly, but you can warm up to it. Experience helps.

- 75 is nice and refreshing, a lovely temp for swimming on a hot summer day.

- 80 is bathwater.

- 85 is almost getting too warm, not very refreshing on a really hot summer day.


Source: a entire lifetime spent swimming in the great lakes

The water temperature is only 80 at Miami Beach today. Almost warm enough to go in but its still Spring so it has a long way to go. By the way, the coldest it gets in January is usually the around 70. The water temperature can go around 90 by the late summer. It still feels cooler than the air and cools you off. The Gulf side gets warmer.
On the other hand, the sea temps got up to and over 100 last year in the sheltered Florida Bay (North of the Keys, South of the Mainland). I didn't experience that water but I assume it would feel almost so warm that it would seem unsanitary for some reason.

For cold water, I somehow survived swimming in Wyoming mountain lakes as a child and it never bothered me back then.

[lio45]

By definition, immersing oneself into ­­>100F water isn't going to cool one off, so yeah, there does exist a point where water can get too hot for the purpose.

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by dave8721

The water temperature is only 80 at Miami Beach today. Almost warm enough to go in but its still Spring so it has a long way to go. By the way, the coldest it gets in January is usually the around 70. The water temperature can go around 90 by the late summer. It still feels cooler than the air and cools you off. The Gulf side gets warmer.
On the other hand, the sea temps got up to and over 100 last year in the sheltered Florida Bay (North of the Keys, South of the Mainland). I didn't experience that water but I assume it would feel almost so warm that it would seem unsanitary for some reason.

For cold water, I somehow survived swimming in Wyoming mountain lakes as a child and it never bothered me back then.

As seen here the warmest area is Florida's SW coast (Marco Island, Sanibel, and the sheltered shallow water Gulf side of the Florida keys)

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by lio45

Not sure, even when it's really hot outside going into frigid water is never pleasant. (BTW nice to see you posting here again, it's been a while, no?)

Personally, I find that even "hot" water (which in reality is not actually close to bathwater ) is nice and refreshing. From personal experience, on a hot day in August in Southern California going into the Pacific is unpleasant, while on a hot day in August on the FL Space Coast going into the Atlantic is enjoyable.

ha, yes, thx. i have two small children and travel for work a lot these days. i pretty much only travel to warm and "hot" places these days for work and am still based out of st. louis (which of course gets more hot +humid than the rest of the larger midwestern cities other than KC) so my "world" is increasingly warm/hot so that's where my head is...

my childhood summers were spent at the gulf which meant *really* warm water and endless sunburns so i appreciate a bracing dip in the pacific or great lakes and a little less harsh summer sun. i can appreciate the difference in the "quality" of the sunlight at higher latitudes (chicago and north) in the summer...the suns light is more pale and obviously less intense.

Arizona this week - i may have to do a short Tempe photo thread if I have time since its been quite a while.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Right, but "frigid water" is highly subjective.

Some people find 75 degree water to be refreshing.

Others find it too cold to tolerate for very long.



for reference, here's my personal water temperature swimming guide:

- 55 is full-blown nuts without a wetsuit, cold shock can actually stun you to death at this temp.

- 60 is still totally fucking cold. Wetsuit required for anything other than a quick jump in/jump out dip.

- 65 is doable for hardier individuals without a wetsuit for short spurts, but you will still need to get out periodically to prevent hypothermia.

- 70 is still pretty chilly, but you can warm up to it. Experience helps.

- 75 is nice and refreshing, a lovely temp for swimming on a hot summer day.

- 80 is bathwater.

- 85 is almost getting too warm, not very refreshing on a really hot summer day.


Source: a entire lifetime spent swimming in the great lakes

I don't know what the sea water temperature was when I was in San Diego in February (60s F?) but I was able to get in the water without a wetsuit for a bit owing to the intensity of the sunlight. It was a bit numbing but the sun mitigated that quite a bit and could pop in and out.