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  #41  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 6:13 AM
BAKGUY BAKGUY is offline
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A few corrections. Polo Park is over 212,000 ft 2.. The Winnipeg Downtown Hudson Bay store is 651,000 ft 2. The main floor is over 93,000 ft 2. The Bay ran and did not ever lease out the groceteria.......When Zellers moved in...They let that arm of HBC run it.. HBC does not run grocery stores anywhere.Also, HBC is owned by an American firm now, they want no part of the grocery biz even though it would benefit the downtown Winnipeg store immensely. The local management can not convince the higher ups to listen about the missing grocery component or restaurant and just want to keep their jobs and the store open. in Winnipeg, Eatons and The Bay had very successful grocery Depts and never lost money doing so. Eatons downtown on 9 floors, was 690,000 ft 2 after the annex was torn down to accommodate Eaton Place.
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  #42  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 8:39 AM
LilZebra LilZebra is offline
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Originally Posted by Pinus View Post
The loss of retail in our city centre has to do with socio-economic issues that plague the city, which started around 30-40 years ago and have been getting progressively worse. As soon as impoverished aboriginals started coming into the city en masse, and congregated in specific areas of the city (by choice or force), crime and neighbourhood deterioration had begun to increase dramatically.

Yeah, well, I guess we have to use code like "the elephant in the room" to describe what you wrote above. Otherwise, we on the political right risk being banned off of SSP. So goes our city, eh.


If I were more "mobile" economically, I would have left some time in the 2000s or certainly by the time Katz caved into the cycling-BRT-"progressive" crowd, pulled up stakes and moved to Toronto where I've visited 4x and love that city, despite some crime.
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  #43  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 8:59 AM
Pinus Pinus is offline
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Yeah, well, I guess we have to use code like "the elephant in the room" to describe what you wrote above. Otherwise, we on the political right risk being banned off of SSP. So goes our city, eh.


If I were more "mobile" economically, I would have left some time in the 2000s or certainly by the time Katz caved into the cycling-BRT-"progressive" crowd, pulled up stakes and moved to Toronto where I've visited 4x and love that city, despite some crime.
How lovely for you. It's always fun to reads people's idle threats. It's as if they mean anything to anyone. Yet for some reason, they always insist on posting them. Perhaps you and armorand93 should get in touch and plan you escape (the dream team!). Then you can get all the other whiners and moaners and take them with you.
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  #44  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 3:53 PM
EdwardTH EdwardTH is offline
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Yeah, well, I guess we have to use code like "the elephant in the room" to describe what you wrote above. Otherwise, we on the political right risk being banned off of SSP. So goes our city, eh.


If I were more "mobile" economically, I would have left some time in the 2000s or certainly by the time Katz caved into the cycling-BRT-"progressive" crowd, pulled up stakes and moved to Toronto where I've visited 4x and love that city, despite some crime.
lol the old "persecuted for my conservative views!" act. Yes you are truly oppressed and my heart bleeds for your struggle. FYI Winnipeg has always had the largest indigenous population in the county, they didn't just show up one day and ruin the city. And yes, move to Toronto where they don't have any of that transit or cycling nonsense ...right?...
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  #45  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 5:12 PM
headhorse headhorse is offline
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honestly, give the land and building back to Treaty 1 First Nations. could become a massive Indigenous centre with something like neechi foods, galleries, cultural centres, educational spaces, a library, museum, housing.. would be a good fit for the building and companies history.

Time to start building our downtown for people who want to be here rather than convincing scared suburbanites that once they pass all through the checkpoints to enter that they’re going they’ll be safe.

I also don’t get the pressure to keep the bay downtown. the idea of a department store is honestly a terrible one and they are slowly being eradicated because of that. small scale, localized retail is the future.
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  #46  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 5:16 PM
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honestly, give the land and building back to Treaty 1 First Nations. could become a massive Indigenous centre with something like neechi foods, galleries, cultural centres, educational spaces, a library, museum, housing.. would be a good fit for the building and companies history.
It's been done, there already is a massive Indigenous centre with lots of what you mentioned... the Aboriginal Centre of Winnipeg. It breathed new life into another hard-to-repurpose heritage building (the old CPR station).
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  #47  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 5:29 PM
headhorse headhorse is offline
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Is it run by Treaty 1 First Nations? I’m more referring to transferring the building in a similar way to urban reserves that have been established throughout the city. I think the long term plan for the CP station should be as a rail station anyways...
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  #48  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 5:38 PM
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honestly, give the land and building back to Treaty 1 First Nations. could become a massive Indigenous centre with something like neechi foods, galleries, cultural centres, educational spaces, a library, museum, housing..
The fact you are comparing this business model to neechi foods proves this will not work. Unfortunately it’s unsustainable without massive ongoing government funding. We’ve seen Neechi commons fail, thunderbird house and other indigenous centres fall into disrepair because the public funding just isn’t there.
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  #49  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 5:46 PM
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I think a huge reason Neechi didn’t work was because of location... would the Bay downtown not be a much better location?

I don’t think we need to be publicly funding a bunch of things, we should be giving land back that is owed to Treaty 1 nations to allow them to use it for their development. Having land and a building that the nations own downtown would allow much more flexibility in what they do and how things are funded.
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  #50  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 5:53 PM
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Is it run by Treaty 1 First Nations? I’m more referring to transferring the building in a similar way to urban reserves that have been established throughout the city. I think the long term plan for the CP station should be as a rail station anyways...
I'm not exactly sure how ownership/control of the centre is structured, but it isn't an urban reserve.

Anyway, it's one thing to buy the land and building and transfer it to First Nations, but they'd be in the same position as anyone else who has kicked the tires on the place and ultimately passed... they'd be on the hook for a massive amount of money to renovate or, I suppose, demolish and rebuild, and that's where the business model probably falls apart.
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  #51  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 5:54 PM
CoryB CoryB is offline
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Back then you could pay for your parking in the store or at the bottom of the ramp. The in-store kiosk parking thingy has be closed for decades now.
I still remember in the 80s pre Portage Place and maybe after there was a lot attendant about halfway down from the upper deck of the Bay parkade and you could pay there and somehow they knew to let you out. Too young to have understood the full details.

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Originally Posted by BAKGUY View Post
A few corrections. Polo Park is over 212,000 ft 2.. The Winnipeg Downtown Hudson Bay store is 651,000 ft 2. The main floor is over 93,000 ft
The discussion you are referring to is about the current (estimated) operating square footage, not the overall size of the building. The downtown Bay operating over two floors at approximately 93,300 sq ft you mention is about 186,000 sq ft or a smaller operating footprint than the Polo Park store.

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Originally Posted by BAKGUY View Post
2. The Bay ran and did not ever lease out the groceteria.......When Zellers moved in...They let that arm of HBC run it.. HBC does not run grocery stores anywhere.
I haven't been but my understanding is the HBC owned and operated Saks location in Toronto has an upscale grocery section operated in partnership with Pusateri's.

Also no one was saying that the downtown Winnipeg location was ever leased, just the opposite I was suggesting that they should lease out the space but finding an operator would likely be very challenging.

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Originally Posted by BAKGUY View Post
The local management can not convince the higher ups to listen about the missing grocery component or restaurant and just want to keep their jobs and the store open.
I cannot recall the name of the outside partner brought in to look at HBC restaurants but I know it happened before the Padwheel permanently closed. The very low end cafeteria fare the place was pumping out was likely not covering the costs to operate the space. It is was such a money making gem it would still be open year round today.
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  #52  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 6:00 PM
headhorse headhorse is offline
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I'm not exactly sure how ownership/control of the centre is structured, but it isn't an urban reserve.

Anyway, it's one thing to buy the land and building and transfer it to First Nations, but they'd be in the same position as anyone else who has kicked the tires on the place and ultimately passed... they'd be on the hook for a massive amount of money to renovate or, I suppose, demolish and rebuild, and that's where the business model probably falls apart.
I agree that funds are still going to have to come from somewhere to help with renos. I’d just rather that money go towards something like this than keeping the Bay as a business in the building.. would also be a project the feds could get interested in.
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  #53  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 6:25 PM
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I agree that funds are still going to have to come from somewhere to help with renos. I’d just rather that money go towards something like this than keeping the Bay as a business in the building.. would also be a project the feds could get interested in.
I guess it boils down to this... if you're the T1FNs, do you want to spend $200 million or whatever just getting The Bay in a condition where it can be used productively, or would you rather use that money to buy or build much less expensive buildings and use the rest for other productive purposes like health, education, social services, etc?
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  #54  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 6:36 PM
headhorse headhorse is offline
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yeah they very well might not be interested in the property but given the history of HBC and the seeming lack of interested parties.. just hoping someone is at least asking T1FN’s or having conversations.
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  #55  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 7:08 PM
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I get writing a blank cheque for a major landmark public building like the Legislature, but it's going to be tough to swallow doing the same for a worn out department store that its owners have neglected for the last 40+ years.

At the time I was sad for sentimental reasons about Eaton's getting demolished, but in hindsight it was probably the best possible outcome. Otherwise it would likely still be sitting empty. I suspect that eventually we will come around on The Bay.
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  #56  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 10:19 PM
CoryB CoryB is offline
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I haven't seen the detailed historic analysis of the Hudson Bay building. I suspect the core part of it is preserving only the facade. If that is the case it really opens up the site to something like the RRC Exchange campus where the existing facade is basically bolted onto an otherwise brand new building.

That makes me wonder what the cost of facade transplant + full demo of existing building + construction of new building would be v the "donut proposal".
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  #57  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by CoryB View Post
I haven't seen the detailed historic analysis of the Hudson Bay building. I suspect the core part of it is preserving only the facade. If that is the case it really opens up the site to something like the RRC Exchange campus where the existing facade is basically bolted onto an otherwise brand new building.

That makes me wonder what the cost of facade transplant + full demo of existing building + construction of new building would be v the "donut proposal".
It's a reinforced concrete structure - so unless there is a reason that the existing floor heights don't work, or the structure is in poor shape - I would think the "donut" option would be orders of magnitude cheaper than a demo and rebuild that would require the existing exterior walls to remain in place.

A "donut" scenario could be as simple as simply selectively removing a section of the interior without much additional major structural alterations required, provided the new walls that face the resulting courtyard are relatively light.
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  #58  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BAKGUY View Post
A few corrections. Polo Park is over 212,000 ft 2.. The Winnipeg Downtown Hudson Bay store is 651,000 ft 2. The main floor is over 93,000 ft 2. The Bay ran and did not ever lease out the groceteria.......When Zellers moved in...They let that arm of HBC run it.. HBC does not run grocery stores anywhere.Also, HBC is owned by an American firm now, they want no part of the grocery biz even though it would benefit the downtown Winnipeg store immensely. The local management can not convince the higher ups to listen about the missing grocery component or restaurant and just want to keep their jobs and the store open. in Winnipeg, Eatons and The Bay had very successful grocery Depts and never lost money doing so. Eatons downtown on 9 floors, was 690,000 ft 2 after the annex was torn down to accommodate Eaton Place.
What makes you think that the local management is even asking for a grocery store? Lol. Or that they aren't considering a restaurant.

I'm pretty close to what's going on there, and I can say this article, and a LOT of the assumptions being made here are laughable and wildly uninformed (not specifically yours BAK).

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Originally Posted by drew View Post
It's a reinforced concrete structure - so unless there is a reason that the existing floor heights don't work, or the structure is in poor shape - I would think the "donut" option would be orders of magnitude cheaper than a demo and rebuild that would require the existing exterior walls to remain in place.

A "donut" scenario could be as simple as simply selectively removing a section of the interior without much additional major structural alterations required, provided the new walls that face the resulting courtyard are relatively light.
Correct – it's considered to be one of the strongest, most robust reinforced concrete buildings in Canada. Could probably withstand armageddon. Demo would be extremely costly, and likely also unnecessary for complete reuse, like you mention. All of the pillars inside are directly connected to columns that go all the way down to the bedrock. That building is just a beast, and could likely support just about any type of reuse or remodel, with out many altercations (for structural support).
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  #59  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 10:57 PM
headhorse headhorse is offline
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could they cut through the interior east to west and create an arcade/pedestrian walkway that connects Graham to Osborne (or whatever its called there.. memorial?) while preserving the exterior facade?

it could be covered but accessible all year, with court yards at least on the north side. something like (blue is hollowed out area:

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  #60  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 10:59 PM
joshlemer joshlemer is offline
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I don't really understand what makes the Bay so difficult to repurpose for other uses. People bring up that ht has large floor plates but it seems pretty easy to find tons of other buildings in downtowns and outside of downtowns with similar dimensions that are being utilized for office or government:

Here's a few from Montreal:

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4961...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5032...7i16384!8i8192

I've personally been inside these buildings which are full of a mix of artist offices and tech companies including ubisoft https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5275...7i16384!8i8192

Here's a 6 storey corporate office in Kanata Ontario that is probably even wider than the Bay https://www.google.com/maps/@45.3401...7i13312!8i6656

As has been mentioned there's also huge bay stores in other canadian cities like vancouver: https://www.google.com/maps/@49.2818...7i16384!8i8192 with pretty much the exact same dimensions and it's doing fine.

I think if the Bay can't find an economic use here it is much more to do with how we are failing to get people downtown than anything intrinsically wrong or outdated with the building. I don't buy at all that large department stores are unworkable today. Go to the outlet mall where the stores are almost department-store-sized, or to the Bay Polo Park and see both locations so full of shoppers it's hard to walk around. The issue is that Winnipeg isn't doing a great job of supporting retail downtown.

So I don't think we should tear down the Bay, or even gut it and turn it into a donut. Slowly, as more people move downtown, there will be plenty of use for that building.
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