Has the BRT been a Colossal Failure?

Jets4Life · #1 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 9:19 AM**

We should have built this thing right, and 25 years ago. Not only is it being constructed 25 years too late, but the "Dog Leg" makes no sense, and reeks of corruption. For the love of God, why couldn't they just build it along the rail line. To hell with cost, it's running along a relatively densely populated area, with apartment blocks and low income residents.

When I see the Calgary C-Train or the Vancouver Skytrain, or any other rapid transit system in Canada, I am embarrassed for my native city.

Jets4Life · #2 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 9:28 AM**

This line is a complete joke right now and it's taking far too long to get built. The Dog Leg is the biggest mistake in the history of rapid transit in any Western Canadian city. Building it through a suburb, away from the main drag, is just going to be out of the way for the citizen who want to use the BRT, and it will not save time, from the traditional express buses that run down Pembina Hwy.

Biff · #3 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 1:36 PM**

Not really arguing with you but I'd like to reserve my judgement until we actually have a functioning proper leg of BRT up and running. What we currently have is not much of anything. Once complete to the UofM and operating in the Parker wastelands will I be able to comment on poor alignment and choice of mode: Rail or Bus.

....I don't use transit, bus would take over an hour +2 transfers either way to get to my work place. Rail would interest me if it were appropriately aligned for my purposes but will never occur so I will likely remain a bystander.

esquire · #4 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 1:46 PM**

^ Yeah, that's about where I am. It's hard to draw any conclusions regarding BRT at this point because we have maybe what, 3 small disconnected segments (Graham Ave., phase 1 SWBRT, Stadium station) that probably don't even add up to one third of the first leg complete yet. I never liked the dogleg much, but in the end it adds 1 measly km to the entire route so I have my doubts as to what impact that will have.

If there's any failure here I'd say it's a political failure that has led to this seemingly simple project being built in the most painfully and intractably drawn out process imaginable.

bomberjet · #5 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 1:57 PM**

Dog leg thing aside (the Cities already made that bed), I'll also reserve judgement until the route is actually complete.

Even then, its a small piece. Eastern transitway will be a huge difference for people in the east end of the City. I think one of the key parts of the system is how it will stretch out from downtown along Main and Portage. There are no dedicated corridors. These will be the key urban locations, in addition to whatever happens at Union Station, that will really determine how this thing plays out.

The dog leg, IMO, isn't the end of the world. This isn't exclusively for people to get from their apartment on Pembina to the U of M. Jets4life is right, probably just easier, and not much longer, to take the existing route on Pembina. Going the opposite way, the routes on Pembina join the transitway at Jubilee.

I know we've been through this 1000 times. Would a sweet LRT/subway system be great, of course it would. Funding, get the funding.

esquire · #6 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 2:00 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I know we've been through this 1000 times. Would a sweet LRT/subway system be great, of course it would. Funding, get the funding.

That's exactly it. Clearly LRT would provide a better level of service, but given how hard it has been just to get BRT built I'm not sure there's a point to waiting another 50 years to try and push the LRT thing. At some point you have to work with what you've got and move on.

Roger Strong · #7 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 2:12 PM**

Needs an option "We have BRT?"

I live in St James and bus to work in the North End. I visit south St. Boniface/St. Vital a lot. I occasionally visit a friend on the Grant bus, crossing the river on Kenaston. On rare occasions I go downtown.

I've heard about this BRT line, but I've never actually *seen* it.

MG922 · #8 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 2:14 PM**

People seem to forget that the dogleg allows for faster operation of busses. If the RT line ran followed the rail line, the busses would be running slower, and have more crossings of residential streets. With a little longer route, but faster speeds, I don't think the dogleg adds any travel time compared to the rail route.

Also, BRT vs LRT has been debated so many times. Like mentioned above, BRT is cheaper, and it allows us to actually build something. All of the current BRT (Phase 1 and 2 of SWRTC) has been designed to allow future conversion to LRT.

robertocarlos · #9 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 2:22 PM**

The heavy buses are just killing the streets. Graham is ruined.

Jets4Life · #10 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 2:23 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MG922

People seem to forget that the dogleg allows for faster operation of busses. If the RT line ran followed the rail line, the busses would be running slower, and have more crossings of residential streets. With a little longer route, but faster speeds, I don't think the dogleg adds any travel time compared to the rail route.

The dog leg will make the commute far slower, and out of the way. If the city was not so cheap, they could ahve done what Calgary did, and build a tunnel under a one km stretch around McGillivary.

robertocarlos · #11 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 2:29 PM**

There's a European company that wants to build tunnels everywhere. Tunnels and underground parking everywhere, that's my dream. Save the surface for better things.

esquire · #12 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 2:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by robertocarlos

The heavy buses are just killing the streets. Graham is ruined.

Graham was last redone in 1994 by my recollection... it has held up not too badly considering that it gets pounded by buses each and every day.

DirtWednesday · #13 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 2:30 PM**

This thing was a failure the moment they decided on BRT. BRT is good ol' half-assed Winnipeg compromising... Is that the right word? Compromise? I don't know, it always looks like 'bad decision' and 'lazy' to me.

"At least we built something".

Yeah, like IGF. A glorious looking shrine to football... that leaks, requires more expensive bandaids than old Bomber stadium, and it built is a shitty location.

Or our laughable "expressways". Do we have any qualified road engineers in this town? Do they know what a functioning Expressway looks like?

BRT will never be converted to LRT. The only way that will happen is if somehow Red River Gumbo is suddenly worth more than oil and we turn into the next Dubai over night.

robertocarlos · #14 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 2:42 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

Graham was last redone in 1994 by my recollection... it has held up not too badly considering that it gets pounded by buses each and every day.

They did a few intersections less than 5 years ago. They used 10 inch concrete and then put paving stones on top. Maybe it's just the paving stones that are ruined.

How much does 10 inch concrete cost?

You can tell we're broke by looking at the temporary fix they used on parts of Graham. I guess they are waiting for the Feds to cut them a cheque for $182 million.

DirtWednesday · #15 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 3:01 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by robertocarlos

They did a few intersections less than 5 years ago. They used 10 inch concrete and then put paving stones on top. Maybe it's just the paving stones that are ruined.

How much does 10 inch concrete cost?

You can tell we're broke by looking at the temporary fix they used on parts of Graham. I guess they are waiting for the Feds to cut them a cheque for $182 million.

Haha, oh the loose tar and pebbles looks fantastic over paving stones. Love it!

borkborkbork · #16 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 3:35 PM**

Quote:

I'll also reserve judgement until the route is actually complete.

I don't think that's necessary. The BRT is broken in a number of ways, regardless of how well the phase 2 route works:

No offboard payment, so boarding is done slowly and only at one door.
Key stops/stations (Graham Mall, Osborne Station) don't allow for passing, leading to delays and bus bunching
Arrivals boards are laughably unreliable, when they're not broken/out of service

And, of course, there's the fact that the existing stations lack proper heating (either no enclosed shelters, or heaters hung so high that they do nothing)... and the fact that a big stretch of the downtown segments have slow light cycles (Hargrave Station, Main turning onto Graham), or lack priority lanes...

bomberjet · #17 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 3:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtWednesday

This thing was a failure the moment they decided on BRT. BRT is good ol' half-assed Winnipeg compromising... Is that the right word? Compromise? I don't know, it always looks like 'bad decision' and 'lazy' to me.

"At least we built something".

Yeah, like IGF. A glorious looking shrine to football... that leaks, requires more expensive bandaids than old Bomber stadium, and it built is a shitty location.

Or our laughable "expressways". Do we have any qualified road engineers in this town? Do they know what a functioning Expressway looks like?

BRT will never be converted to LRT. The only way that will happen is if somehow Red River Gumbo is suddenly worth more than oil and we turn into the next Dubai over night.

The engineers know. Funding, get funding. That's up to the politicians. We actually do have functioning expressways. No freeways though.

CoryB · #18 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 3:59 PM**

Why does this need its own thread?

optimusREIM · #19 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 4:21 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by borkborkbork

I don't think that's necessary. The BRT is broken in a number of ways, regardless of how well the phase 2 route works:

No offboard payment, so boarding is done slowly and only at one door.
Key stops/stations (Graham Mall, Osborne Station) don't allow for passing, leading to delays and bus bunching
Arrivals boards are laughably unreliable, when they're not broken/out of service

And, of course, there's the fact that the existing stations lack proper heating (either no enclosed shelters, or heaters hung so high that they do nothing)... and the fact that a big stretch of the downtown segments have slow light cycles (Hargrave Station, Main turning onto Graham), or lack priority lanes...

BRT should also have a preboarding paying system, like you know, every other city in the world that has rapid transit. That would be an astronomical improvement. That would probably make people forget they're not taking rail, at least a little bit. It would also save huge amounts of time and allow for both doors to be open for boarding. Of course that wouldn't work for regular buses but for the rapid transit portion I think it's a must. BRT stations should also be further apart and treated more like hubs where people would get off the bus from feeder lines. If we ever complete the whole system the routes for all buses will NEED to be updated to make the whole system more efficient. If we don't do that BRT will continue to be a massive cluster**** no matter how much money we throw at it. And who knows, in the process we might discover that LRT is actually viable if you use the hub and spoke system

bomberjet · #20 Posted **Jul 10, 2017, 4:57 PM**

They really should have pre-boarding and the City knows it. Especially at places like Osborne Station, where there is no bypass lane for busses to get by each other. Question if anyone knows. Do buses ever use the oncoming lane to pass in the station?

Someone mentioned a little while back some buses get lots of people boarding, which causes delays as everyone has to pay when boarding the bus. Buses already boarded but at the back of the line have to sit and wait while people ahead board. Not efficient.