Winnipeg | Portage and Main

[BubberMiley]

Originally Posted by cheswick

I travel through there daily and want it open. The extra less than 2 minutes it would add to my daily commute is nothing compared to increasing the vibrancy of Winnipeg's most iconic corner, connectivity of downtown and the quite frankly increasing the accessibility for those with disabilities, keeping it closed is borderline discriminatory.

A Charter challenge would probably work, and there's no Ford to use the notwithstanding clause. There are other ways to effect change at that intersection.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by oftheMoon

I don't understand the bitching about an extra 2 minutes on a commute that involves going through P&M when these same folks are stuck for minutes upon minutes upon minutes at every single intersection between P&M and Bridgewater.

It's a commute - it's a chose made and will take time to get to and from. Keeping P&M closed is not a magic pod that will transport one to the far reaches of the city.

"I live within sight of the Perimeter, but Portage and Main is the real reason why my commute is annoying!"

-Winnipeg logic

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Not only that but that statement sounds a lot like he thinks P&M is the only thoroughfare through downtown. I guess people don't look at maps before they sound off. We should be implementing traffic calming measures on this part of Main to keep the street from being a pseudo-freeway through the downtown area, segregating a whole area and preventing it from reaching its potential.


Why is Winnipeg so incapable of a little foresight! Every goddamned issue is the same. And a few years go by and everyone loves the decisions that were made. This is why this plebiscite business is such a farce. If Winnipegers voted on every single issue we would probably have no exchange district, a sea of parking lots south of portage (oh wait...) and be stuck perpetually in a late 90s funk that still seems to permeate the very fabric of the existence of most of our residents anyways. I respect people's right to self determination, but I feel as though there are those who would be perfectly happy with the 'car-up-on-blocks-oil-drum-fire' aesthetic for the entire city who are purposefully playing on the worst fears of the people here in order to stay trapped in some weird dystopia.

Despite the obvious progress the city continues to make year over year, I can't help but be bothered by the refusal of some people to let go of our mediocre past to step into what could be a very bright future.

Edit: And in case it hasn't been articulated clearly enough already, no, opening Portage and Main or not is not going to make or break the city. The reason it is so important is that the issue is emblematic of the ethos of the city, and in my opinion represents the struggle to exorcise demons that should not have been present to begin with.

Exactly! For some people it seems if they have a Wal-Mart and a liquor store close by, their lives are complete. Fair enough, if that's how they want to live, but they seem to violently resent it when anyone else strives for something better. The "don't inconvenience ME, don't spend a dime of "MY" money" attitude is belligerent and self-centred. I sincerely hope Bowman (should he be re-elected) ignore the plebiscite and do what's best for the city by owning P & M.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by cheswick

I travel through there daily and want it open. The extra less than 2 minutes it would add to my daily commute is nothing compared to increasing the vibrancy of Winnipeg's most iconic corner, connectivity of downtown and the quite frankly increasing the accessibility for those with disabilities, keeping it closed is borderline discriminatory.

More of the bullshit that opening Portage and Main will somehow transform both Portage Ave. and Main St. into the vibrancy that they once held back in the 1940's, 50's and 60's. here's news for new: that vibrancy is never coming back!

And wow, now it's discriminatory to keep it closed, keep grasping......

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

More of the bullshit that opening Portage and Main will somehow transform both Portage Ave. and Main St. into the vibrancy that they once held back in the 1940's, 50's and 60's. here's news for new: that vibrancy is never coming back!

And wow, now it's discriminatory to keep it closed, keep grasping......

Well to declare the vibrancy is never coming back and also prevent anyone from taking any actions to bring the vibrancy back is definitely going to keep it the way it is now. Why is it so wrong that people actually care enough to make the city nice for its residents? Why not take a dead part of downtown and try to make it more pleasant to entice people to want to live there? Why not do something different than shitting on ourselves by making piss-poor decisions? Like enough with the self-defeatism already, sheesh!

[Ando]

Probe should be held to account for how it structured the survey.

"The survey also found 66 per cent of Winnipeggers agreed with the statement "smooth traffic through the downtown is more important than pedestrian access," while 65 per cent agreed with the statement "those who want to reopen Portage and Main are out of touch with the concerns of ordinary Winnipeggers."

The way the statements are crafted is going to have an impact on how people answer. The first statement makes it sound like you can't have both "smooth traffic" and "pedestrian access". The second statement makes it sound like the people who want to open cannot be "ordinary" Winnipeggers.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Ando

Probe should be held to account for how it structured the survey.

"The survey also found 66 per cent of Winnipeggers agreed with the statement "smooth traffic through the downtown is more important than pedestrian access," while 65 per cent agreed with the statement "those who want to reopen Portage and Main are out of touch with the concerns of ordinary Winnipeggers."

The way the statements are crafted is going to have an impact on how people answer. The first statement makes it sound like you can't have both "smooth traffic" and "pedestrian access". The second statement makes it sound like the people who want to open cannot be "ordinary" Winnipeggers.

Good catch. Yeah the method seemed suspect now that I think about it.

[Riverman]

From the Sun:

"According to Probe, there is virtually no demographic that supports opening the intersection. Young adults (those aged 18- 34) are slightly more likely to be in favour, but even a majority of those would vote against removing the barricades. Similarly, committed downtowners — those who tend to live, work or play downtown — are more likely to vote for the famed intersection to remain closed."

This blows away the arguement that it is only suburbanites and old people that want the intersection kept closed.

[Hecate]

They surveyed 600 people in an online poll where the participants were pre selected. Take this survey as the grain of salt that it is.

[Riverman]

It is a scientific poll, they are not usually that far off statistically.

[Hecate]

They used nonprobability sampling. It’s not a very scientific poll.

[esquire]

^ I don't doubt that the results are probably close to accurate. But a poll result doesn't necessarily tell you what the right decision is. There have probably been polls taken in Riverman's lifetime that would have come down against equal rights for minorities, etc. Strong leadership educated people and overcame those once-dominant mentalities.

The problem here is that Bowman utterly dropped the ball in making the case for opening the intersection. He has done a crap job of articulating the benefits of opening the intersection, and that there will be costs either way whether the intersection remains open or closed... right now, a lot of people think that opening the corner means spending huge wads of money while keeping it closed costs zero when a walk through the concourse makes it obvious that isn't the case.

So hopefully Vike and others can fill that glaring leadership vacuum and provide voters with a clearer picture of what's on the table, and that keeping the intersection closed comes with a pricetag too.

[Hecate]

60% of the people responding to the poll said they didn’t enjoy spending time downtown. 66% said smooth traffic flow was more important than pedestrian accessibility and 65% said people that want it opened are out of touch with what real winnipeggers want. This poll is slanted

[pspeid]

I didn't see the poll myself, but having worked for a polling firm in the past, sampling method is hugely important in whether a poll accurately reflects the population at large (also question structure, sample size, and the length of time they surveyed. If there was a sample of 600 people, odds are they did it over no more than two evenings). Even the best survey only reflects how people felt at that moment in time, not how they may feel when it's time to vote.

Anyway, even the best polls have been wrong before. But let's say it's accurate and most people don't want the intersection opened now. This issue isn't going to go away, and I doubt another mayor/council will sign another agreement to delay opening the intersection for ANOTHER 40 years. Even if the "open" side "loses" the plebiscite and the next mayor puts off the decision, we will still have forward-thinking builders in the city who will continue to push to see it opened. The stakeholder on all four corners are on-side, and with the new apartment at 300 Main, and (hopefully) a new structure in the empty lot on Main next to 201 Portage Ave. This delay could be used to create an even more dynamic vision for P & M than the one Bowman currently has.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by esquire

There have probably been polls taken in Riverman's lifetime that would have come down against equal rights for minorities, etc.

I have to drive to Bowmanville today to pick up a part for my fireplace, but that's not relevant either.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Well to declare the vibrancy is never coming back and also prevent anyone from taking any actions to bring the vibrancy back is definitely going to keep it the way it is now. Why is it so wrong that people actually care enough to make the city nice for its residents? Why not take a dead part of downtown and try to make it more pleasant to entice people to want to live there? Why not do something different than shitting on ourselves by making piss-poor decisions? Like enough with the self-defeatism already, sheesh!

I agree completely. For some reason, some people are violently opposed to the idea that Winnipeg could, or even should, try to improve itself. They often claim they are "just being sensible", but they remind me of those tragic souls who cling to their self-loathing and refuse to believe they have value as a person. Like you said, "enough with the self-defeatism already".

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Riverman

I have to drive to Bowmanville today to pick up a part for my fireplace, but that's not relevant either.

When you don't have the full story and you're relying on erroneous preconceived notions, you often make the wrong decision... as we are seeing with this poll result.

[TimeFadesAway]

Originally Posted by Riverman

From the Sun:

"According to Probe, there is virtually no demographic that supports opening the intersection. Young adults (those aged 18- 34) are slightly more likely to be in favour, but even a majority of those would vote against removing the barricades. Similarly, committed downtowners — those who tend to live, work or play downtown — are more likely to vote for the famed intersection to remain closed."

This blows away the arguement that it is only suburbanites and old people that want the intersection kept closed.

The Disraeli Bridge was turned down by plebiscite twice in the late '50s before council decided to go ahead and build it anyway. The general population is not equipped to make these decisions.

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

More of the bullshit that opening Portage and Main will somehow transform both Portage Ave. and Main St. into the vibrancy that they once held back in the 1940's, 50's and 60's. here's news for new: that vibrancy is never coming back!

And wow, now it's discriminatory to keep it closed, keep grasping......

You sound like Donald Trump.

[Labroco]

NEW ONLINE POLL OUT SUGGESTS 94.6% of WINNIPEGERS SUPPORT OPENING P &M to PEDESTRIANS.

A recent on line poll suggests the vast majority of The Winnipeger's support opening P & M. The online blog Skyscrapper Forum representing a diverse demographic of age, income, education and gender overwhelmingly support its immediate opening.

"This is fantastic news" stated Labroco a contributor to the forum.

"Our sample size, question and diverse respondents is an obvious representation of the plebiscite and its outcome".

Now lets have FP, The Sun and CJOB reports this poll. It's just as true as yesterday's FP story!