Calgary Roads

[Porfiry]

Originally Posted by milomilo

In this particular case, the way forward is to get as many people using that bus route rather than adding car lanes just so people can add to the congestion on Crowchild.

Right, but there are so many more cost-effective ways to run an express bus that would also be flexible to alternate uses in the future. The city went straight from no bus to gold-plated solution. I disagree strongly with the implementation, not the intent.

It's hard to judge the BRT's success when it's barely been open and then a pandemic happened, it'll take years for behavior to change. I'd like to see the city make improvements on the rest of the bus route to make it more attractive to use.

Sadly the city can and will hide behind COVID to explain away low ridership. They will never admit poor design or judgement.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

In this particular case, the way forward is to get as many people using that bus route rather than adding car lanes just so people can add to the congestion on Crowchild. It's hard to judge the BRT's success when it's barely been open and then a pandemic happened, it'll take years for behaviour to change. I'd like to see the city make improvements on the rest of the bus route to make it more attractive to use.

If however the demand on 14th is decreased because of this new reality, not to worry then we don't need to upgrade the roads.

Demand for transit will drop off. No one said anything about vehicle use. That will very likely go up. So we do need to upgrade and build new roads. Canceling the Green Line and putting the money toward major road upgrades would be much bigger bang for the buck. Probably would save us a ton of money as well.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Porfiry

This is what’s most astonishing to me about that project... there’s no way it can ever be repurposed for anything else if the express bus plan doesn’t pan out. The whole thing would have to be torn out if there’s any change in strategy.

That might have been a poison pill type of a strategy to ensure that even if in the future City planners or politicians focus more on car transportation, that these bus transit improvements will remain because they can't be easily repurposed.

[Porfiry]

Originally Posted by accord1999

That might have been a poison pill type of a strategy to ensure that even if in the future City planners or politicians focus more on car transportation, that these bus transit improvements will remain because they can't be easily repurposed.

Yup, I think you’re 100% right.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Porfiry

Right, but there are so many more cost-effective ways to run an express bus that would also be flexible to alternate uses in the future. The city went straight from no bus to gold-plated solution. I disagree strongly with the implementation, not the intent.



Sadly the city can and will hide behind COVID to explain away low ridership. They will never admit poor design or judgement.

The city has done what many cities have done, build high quality transit where it is easiest and neglect the areas that have most ridership potential but are most difficult to serve. Same story as the Green Line. It's not ideal but that doesn't mean the transitway is bad.

I'd rather the city had focused on making the downtown bus routes future proofed, combining all the routes into some dedicated transitways, then building out from there. But I still think the SW route is pretty decent, they now just need to work to get from there to Mount Royal and downtown in a less crappy way. They severely missed an opportunity to utilize the Glenmore Dam.

Originally Posted by accord1999

That might have been a poison pill type of a strategy to ensure that even if in the future City planners or politicians focus more on car transportation, that these bus transit improvements will remain because they can't be easily repurposed.

Why would it ever need to be repurposed? 14th is already 6 lanes, adding more just so people can sit waiting for Glenmore would be pointless. I think the city was wise to get ahead of the issue and give people a congestion reducing option rather than a congestion increasing one. Every single driver using 14th should be crying out for improvements to the bus service, to reduce congestion.

[Pegasus]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Why would it ever need to be repurposed? 14th is already 6 lanes, adding more just so people can sit waiting for Glenmore would be pointless..

Only 4 lanes only from Anderson Road to Glenmore Landing! This is where most of the congestion is (unless there is a back-up on Glenmore Trail).

[milomilo]

I do agree they should have made the whole road 6 lanes as part of the bus upgrade and it's probably shitty to rectify that given the heft if the barriers that are now in place. However, other than that, what more need be done? It's not like the area is going to densify, it's all rich NIMBY retirees in that area, and the ring road should help a little. That area of the city's transportation network is now complete.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Only 4 lanes only from Anderson Road to Glenmore Landing! This is where most of the congestion is (unless there is a back-up on Glenmore Trail).

Will it still be the most congested after Anderson, Southland and 90th Avenue all connect to the ring road?

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

Will it still be the most congested after Anderson, Southland and 90th Avenue all connect to the ring road?

We'll have to see how well the connector roads function first. If people end up sitting in traffic I can't see too many of them detouring west if they want to go EB on Glenmore. They'll just put up with the traffic on 14th like they have for decades.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I do agree they should have made the whole road 6 lanes as part of the bus upgrade and it's probably shitty to rectify that given the heft if the barriers that are now in place. However, other than that, what more need be done? It's not like the area is going to densify, it's all rich NIMBY retirees in that area, and the ring road should help a little. That area of the city's transportation network is now complete.

It's funny how for decades the rich folk in places such as Eagle Ridge fought off the building of interchanges but were unable to stop a bus corridor. 14 Street is not complete but as long as we have the same administration mentality concerning that corridor nothing else will happen.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

It's funny how for decades the rich folk in places such as Eagle Ridge fought off the building of interchanges but were unable to stop a bus corridor. 14 Street is not complete but as long as we have the same administration mentality concerning that corridor nothing else will happen.

These people didn't deserve to get anything, but if they didn't want roads then they still got infrastructure that will help them by reducing the number of cars on the road rather than increasing. There is no need for any more upgrades, so it is complete, unless one day we can upgrade the busway to LRT.

[Porfiry]

Originally Posted by milomilo

The valid reason would be that adding car capacity increases congestion, as we all know.

Originally Posted by milomilo

I do agree they should have made the whole road 6 lanes as part of the bus upgrade and it's probably shitty to rectify that given the heft if the barriers that are now in place.

[milomilo]

When it comes to roads, I think lane continuity is often of greater importance than number of lanes. So the change from 2 to 3 lanes is a problem on 14th. But unless you rebuild the entire causeway, both interchanges, Glenmore Trail and Crowchild Trail then going up to 4 lanes on 14th is not only pointless, but would make congestion worse.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

These people didn't deserve to get anything, but if they didn't want roads then they still got infrastructure that will help them by reducing the number of cars on the road rather than increasing. There is no need for any more upgrades, so it is complete, unless one day we can upgrade the busway to LRT.

Interchanges and more lanes are needed. Anyway, my point was that the rich people in that area didn't want any additional transportation infrastructure. Fucking City used their opposition to avoid helping out drivers but didn't care one bit about opposition when it came to buses that I doubt many in that area will use. Money would have resulted in much greater benefits if the road was made six lanes and interchanges at 75 Avenue, Heritage Drive and 90 Avenue were built.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

When it comes to roads, I think lane continuity is often of greater importance than number of lanes. So the change from 2 to 3 lanes is a problem on 14th. But unless you rebuild the entire causeway, both interchanges, Glenmore Trail and Crowchild Trail then going up to 4 lanes on 14th is not only pointless, but would make congestion worse.

They don't need to rebuild the causeway. They might need to make a deal with golf course people. Rebuilding/modifying/expanding the interchanges is going to happen anyway.

I agree that lane continuity is important but it doesn't trump capacity needs.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

They don't need to rebuild the causeway. They might need to make a deal with golf course people. Rebuilding/modifying/expanding the interchanges is going to happen anyway.

I agree that lane continuity is important but it doesn't trump capacity needs.

What capacity needs? 14th is 6 lanes + 2 lanes with potentially higher capacity, feeding into a road that effectively is permanently limited to 6 lanes. Who gives a shit about this area of the city anyway? The residents don't want any more roads and they don't want anything else so why anyone who doesn't live there would want more of their cars on the road is a bizarre way of thinking.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Interchanges and more lanes are needed. Anyway, my point was that the rich people in that area didn't want any additional transportation infrastructure. Fucking City used their opposition to avoid helping out drivers but didn't care one bit about opposition when it came to buses that I doubt many in that area will use. Money would have resulted in much greater benefits if the road was made six lanes and interchanges at 75 Avenue, Heritage Drive and 90 Avenue were built.

Again, why on earth would you need interchanges and 6-8 lanes on this section of 14th? Especially considering it feeds into Glenmore and Crowchild which will never be increased in capacity beyond 6 lanes.

Do you actually understand that putting more cars on the road increases the number of cars on the road and thus congestion? Seems obvious to me but it needs saying. If you drive a car you should want fewer other people driving a car unless you spend the majority of your time on that particular piece of road.

[Pegasus]

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Pity they didn't do this [upgrade to 6 lanes] on 14th Street past Glenmore Landing and Heritage Park. The (very expensive) dedicated bus lanes and new tunnel for a bus that runs only a few times an hour didn't do anything to solve one of the main congestion points in the city.

I think the SWCRR will have a much bigger (positive) impact on 14th street traffic than the SE ring road had on Deerfoot and Macleod. It is very close to SW communities and ties directly into Glenmore Trail, Crowchild Trail and Sarcee Trail. I tend to avoid the SE ring road as it is so far out (unless there is a problem on Deerfoot).

A simple (and cheaper) widening of 14th street (at least to Southland Drive), combined with traffic moving over to the SWCRR, would have provided a bus route that didn't need extravagant dedicated lanes and a very expensive underpass at 90th Avenue. (And currently the buses still have to merge with traffic on the causeway, the most congested section of the route)!

[milomilo]

The buses do get shoulder lanes and a queue jump on crowchild, tbf. But that's a pretty substandard solution. Long term, I'd like to see the causeway and interchanges upgraded along with a proper route for the bus through it. But that's a massive project and can't be justified in the foreseeable future. I think we have to find out if we're going to be the next Detroit or not first.

[craner]

^The next Detroit .... yeah right.

Originally Posted by Pegasus

I think the SWCRR will have a much bigger (positive) impact on 14th street traffic than the SE ring road had on Deerfoot and Macleod. It is very close to SW communities and ties directly into Glenmore Trail, Crowchild Trail and Sarcee Trail. I tend to avoid the SE ring road as it is so far out (unless there is a problem on Deerfoot).

A simple (and cheaper) widening of 14th street (at least to Southland Drive), combined with traffic moving over to the SWCRR, would have provided a bus route that didn't need extravagant dedicated lanes and a very expensive underpass at 90th Avenue. (And currently the buses still have to merge with traffic on the causeway, the most congested section of the route)!

^This!
It irritates me that they went to all the effort and expense at 90th Avenue for a bus only tunnel. Pay the extra 10% and build a full interchange that will benefit all for Pete's sake. But I guess that wouldn’t align with the war on the evil automobile.