The future of Ottawa's Transit

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by eltodesukane

There's a stop on Montreal Road, but the busiest part in Vanier is totally bypassed by the LRT.

Again, the present tense is the wrong tense to be using.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

And?

Much of Vanier is a typical 1950s suburb (low density, car centric), except for the area between Genest and Beechwood (which was a streetcar suburb at one point) and the area within about 200m of Montreal Road (which was also a pre-war suburb). You like to (repeatedly) throw around words like "core" and "urban" to describe rows of two story single family homes as justification for why Vanier needs an overbuilt transit system but most of the area is infused with 1950s planning, as are nearby neighbourhoods such as overbrook and forbes, and frankly not much different than the other suburbs you like to trash talk.

[Mikeed]

So is the solution ramming a 3 billion dollar stump subway down Vanier? Isn't Toronto making a similar mistake.

It's an imperfect world- move on. The regional demands are greater then any neighbourhood. Also cities don't allow you to 'start from scratch'

[Mikeed]

If the community here asked you to come up with a final manifesto for your grievances with the current transit plan, could you write it, we'd read it and then you can get some closure and we can all move on to something else?

[FFX-ME]

Have a look at Ottawa in population explorer: https://populationexplorer.com/

You'll see that northeast Ottawa isn't actually that dense and that the highest density areas are actually along where the Confederation and Trillium lines are going. The density in Orleans is actually higher than Vanier so by density arguments Orleans is the logical choice.

[m0nkyman]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Then why do people take GO trains from far places where the highway is not packed?

Because the highway *is* packed closer to where they are going: Toronto.

Your cul de sac may not be packed, but the Queensway is packed at rush hour.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Much of Vanier is a typical 1950s suburb (low density, car centric), except for the area between Genest and Beechwood (which was a streetcar suburb at one point) and the area within about 200m of Montreal Road (which was also a pre-war suburb).

And much of it is not.

You like to (repeatedly) throw around words like "core" and "urban" to describe rows of two story single family homes as justification for why Vanier

No, I use it to describe a whole range of areas. Even within that core, there are going to be areas of higher and lower density or diversity.

needs an overbuilt transit system

No, it needs an appropriately built transit system. I don't like overbuilt transit systems, which is why I despise the millions that are being spent on stupidly fancy rooves and "statements" on the above-ground LRT stations now under construction.

but most of the area is infused with 1950s planning, as are nearby neighbourhoods such as overbrook

And yet Overbrook, which is as suburbany than the suburbany parts of Vanier, will have better (though not ideal) access to the LRT.

and forbes, and frankly not much different than the other suburbs you like to trash talk.

They are very different in several important respects: location, proximity to downtown, and street layouts that will be supportive of more intense, diverse, and transit-supportive redevelopment.

The suburban crap that we are building LRT to will never be anything but residential crescents and cul-de-sacs, unless a nuclear war or geological forces give us a reason to start over from scratch.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Mikeed

So is the solution ramming a 3 billion dollar stump subway down Vanier?

It would neither be Vanier-only, nor a stub, but in either case it's academic, because Ottawa's fixation on extending higher-order urban transit into the communities that are least transit-friendly will mean that urban areas of the city will have to make do with crappy buses until well into the 2100s.

It's an imperfect world- move on. The regional demands are greater then any neighbourhood. Also cities don't allow you to 'start from scratch'

Funny, I thought the older, denser and more diverse parts of the region were also part of, you know, the region.

Orleans doesn't mind taking my property taxes but has a huge issue with providing the inner city with quality public services.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Have a look at Ottawa in population explorer: https://populationexplorer.com/

You'll see that northeast Ottawa isn't actually that dense and that the highest density areas are actually along where the Confederation and Trillium lines are going. The density in Orleans is actually higher than Vanier

Not even close.

Population (persons/km^2):

Vanier (former city) 5669
Somerset Ward 5402
Rideau-Vanier Ward 3937
Capital Ward 3484
Kanata South Ward 2625
Kitchissippi Ward 2511
Alta Vista Ward 2170
River Ward 1965
Rideau-Rockcliffe Ward 1872
Orléans Ward 1869

Here's the 2016 census population density cleverly mapped at a fairly high granularity. Remember, we are, on purpose, bypassing numerous inner-city neighbourhoods with those dark purple high-density hues and economic diversity in order to run trains to outside-the-greenbelt, largely monocultural, suburbs:

[Uhuniau]

And, for the record, here's a list of transit things that I've been told by various officials over the past few years that inner Ottawa neighbourhoods can't have:

- surface LRT
- underground LRT
- dedicated bus lanes
- higher-capacity buses
- transit signal priority
- single-occupant auto traffic / congestion mitigation


So what's left?

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

And, for the record, here's a list of transit things that I've been told by various officials over the past few years that inner Ottawa neighbourhoods can't have:

- surface LRT
- underground LRT
- dedicated bus lanes
- higher-capacity buses
- transit signal priority
- single-occupant auto traffic / congestion mitigation


So what's left?

So true. Since the city is essentially forcing route 12 to be the E-W trunk route of the inner east side than it should treat it as such. Dedicated bus lanes and transit priority signals would be a damn good start.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Is there a major arterial street that does not have transit on it?
Is there a major arterial street that does not have a Tranitway/Confederation line/LRT stop on it?

Most of Hunt Club, Most of Prince of Wales come to mind

[lrt's friend]

I do not think it is a wonderful achievement to force everybody onto a single rapid transit line. At some point, the connections become so cumbersome when you live some distance from rapid transit, that it is far from competitive with more direct trips by private vehicle.

Ottawa is employing the theory that we can't build more than one line for fear that each line will compete with the other. At some point (and I know we don't have the money to do this now), we need to bring rapid transit closer to more people.

The desired hub and spoke system really breaks down when the spokes take the rider way out of their way to reach their destination. The thought of forcing Vanier residents to go to Hurdman to reach downtown by subway is ludicrous.

We cannot build a great city along only one corridor.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Ottawa is employing the theory that we can't build more than one line for fear that each line will compete with the other.

Which is nonsense, as anyone who actually uses transit could tell them: the more service you have (in whatever format), running to more places, at more times of the day, the more transit becomes a viable option for someone to displace a trip by another mode, or undertake a trip that they otherwise would not.

The "competition" theory never seems to apply to roads for some reason.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

So true. Since the city is essentially forcing route 12 to be the E-W trunk route of the inner east side than it should treat it as such. Dedicated bus lanes and transit priority signals would be a damn good start.

Also a high-capacity bus guarantee (40 footers cannot safely or adequately serve the route), and some morning peak relief runs so that the innerest of the inner folks (say, west of St. Laurent) have a fighting chance to not stand as straphangers the whole bumpy jumpy way to the Rideau Centre, or, assuming the genius planners don't have their way entirely, to the downtown office district.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Most of Hunt Club, Most of Prince of Wales come to mind

Hunt Club does have the Trillium line stop on it. I keep getting the names mixed up. Oh, it also has a Transitway stop too.

Hunt Club or Baseline might make good crosstown LRT routes.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Hunt Club does have the Trillium line stop on it. I keep getting the names mixed up. Oh, it also has a Transitway stop too.

Hunt Club or Baseline might make good crosstown LRT routes.

They are getting the BRT treatment: remember, all investment in higher-order transit in Ottawa must, by some obscure law, be in low-density suburban locations.

[MalcolmTucker]

An old map, but probably still would provide good guidance. http://michaelkostiuk.com/empdem/index.html

[Uhuniau]

It's really impressive how Ottawa's current and future rapid transit network avoids so many of the areas of highest residential density and the areas of highest employment density.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

It's really impressive how Ottawa's current and future rapid transit network avoids so many of the areas of highest residential density and the areas of highest employment density.

That is because of NIMBYism. Does anyone want their neighbourhood torn up?