Winnipeg Retail

[esquire]

Either way, it is kind of a perplexing time for downtown... it really is the best of times and the worst of times. So much development on one side of the ledger, yet on the other side of the ledger, retail has been almost completely obliterated.

If you want to buy a birthday gift for your aunt from somewhere downtown, you'd better hope she likes the Jets or she's into either the kinds of hipster stuff that the Exchange District shops sell, or the streetwear that the shops on Portage and Graham sell. Because there are almost no other options... which is hard to process for a city that's starting to push up against the million population mark.

[drew]

We just need to keep adding residents to the downtown area. Eventually the retailers won't be able to ignore it, and retail will rebound to some degree - but never to what it was.

Interestingly - if your aunt happens to be the outdoorsy type - downtown is actually your best bet with MEC and Wilderness Supply both within walking distance.

[esquire]

Oh yeah, MEC... forgot about them. Although with the way things are going for them I'd say the death watch is probably on for their downtown location.

[drew]

^ yeah. I hope not - as that is the only retail downtown that I still use.

[drew]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

The store had been dying a slow death since at least the 80s but what really seemed to kill it in my view is when they stopped giving out parking tokens for the parkade if you made a purchase. After all, Polo Park is just a couple miles down the road.

The Bay downtowns demise started the as soon as the Polo Park location opened.

Up until that point, it was still the main full service "branch" in the city, and remained a busy, profitable place.

[GarryEllice]

Originally Posted by drew

^ There may be a few smaller shops that open to fill a void, but IMO online shopping will be doing most of the heavy lifting for downtown residents. Especially those without personal vehicles.

As one of those downtown residents without a vehicle, I can just hop on a bus and be at Polo Park in 12 minutes. I'll miss the Bay's presence, but in my actual day-to-day life, the loss of Staples is a much bigger inconvenience.

[buzzg]

HBC will likely survive (even if it has to restructure) and I'd guess keep max one store in each major city, maybe 2-3 in the big three here. Their online experience is fantastic. And those flagships in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are incredible experiences and carry all the high end brands you could want that aren't available elsewhere in Canada.
They also still have over $6b in real estate assets to play with - being locked out of the leased ones might be a purposeful strategy.

FWIW, a little over a year ago the downtown store here shrunk its mens apparel to expand furniture and housewares and saw big sales increases in those departments. Downtown was selling more furniture than Polo and St. Vital combined so they kept expanding the department. I mention this as it shows there is certainly a market for homegoods downtown, and that will only keep growing as the population does.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by drew

The Bay downtowns demise started the as soon as the Polo Park location opened.

Up until that point, it was still the main full service "branch" in the city, and remained a busy, profitable place.

I would 100% agree with this take. The day it opened, the Polo Park location became the go-to location in town that had all the stuff the other locations didn't.

On that note, I wonder how much longer the St. Vital location is for this world? It's been kind of a half assed Bay for as long as I can remember, and with the way things are going for department stores it seems that one Bay is more than enough for the whole city...

[esquire]

Originally Posted by buzzg

HBC will likely survive (even if it has to restructure) and I'd guess keep max one store in each major city, maybe 2-3 in the big three here. Their online experience is fantastic. And those flagships in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are incredible experiences and carry all the high end brands you could want that aren't available elsewhere in Canada.
They also still have over $6b in real estate assets to play with - being locked out of the leased ones might be a purposeful strategy.

FWIW, a little over a year ago the downtown store here shrunk its mens apparel to expand furniture and housewares and saw big sales increases in those departments. Downtown was selling more furniture than Polo and St. Vital combined so they kept expanding the department. I mention this as it shows there is certainly a market for homegoods downtown, and that will only keep growing as the population does.

Interesting. That's what I was getting at with my earlier comment about replacement retailers popping up downtown in The Bay's wake. With their furniture floor gone, you would think there would be room for a mainstream furniture store that occupies the space between Interior Illusions and their high end selection, and the Goodwill store.

[pegcity]

Originally Posted by Jeff

There are LEASED signs in two vacant units near Homesense in the SmartCentres wasteland at Kensaston and Lindenwood Dr. Whatever could be interested in moving into that carcass of a strip mall, especially right now, is beyond me.

Sephora, don’t know what the other is.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by pegcity

Sephora, don’t know what the other is.

very interesting! thanks

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by esquire

My last visit to The Bay was in October and even by then it felt like it was half-closed already with much of the store hollowed out.

There was a feeling in the mid 00s that there would be a retail rebound downtown as there had just been some store openings and MTS Centre was going to lead a retail renaissance.

Hydro Place was actually the project that was thought to be a possible savior for downtown retail. MTS Centre, especially before the return of the NHL, was more focused on the nightlife aspects such as restaurants, etc.

Even then it's been pretty clear downtown retail has been in full retreat for 25+ years and any blimps were more anomalies than trends. I remember when I started work downtown in the mid 90s the typical lunch beat (for me) was going to one of the many music stores to check over what I could find there. As recent as 10 years ago (even more) you could still go hunting for music, video games, etc at lunch. Now all that is gone. Not because the retail as a whole has disappeared but that is how downtown has evolved. Now its most independent stores with lower end merchandise that is heavily marked up.

[esquire]

^ I would agree, I think it was clear 25 years ago that downtown's days as a retail hub were behind it. In some ways Portage Place was kind of the last stab at putting that critical mass together... it was a project that was more aspirational than one designed to meet an actual existing need.

But that said, the baseline of minimum downtown retail is probably lower than I would have expected. Even without the big department stores and chain merchants, I kind of thought downtown would chug along with at least some basic stuff, like a few clothing stores, a couple of movie theatres - sort of like downtown Edmonton where it isn't some cornucopia of options but at least the basics are covered. But for the last 20 years the pattern has been clear... the businesses are hanging on downtown until they go bankrupt, then the downtown store closes and no store replaces it. Or a much lesser one does, e.g. a national chain store closes only to be replaced by someone who basically resells cheap stuff they buy on DHGate or whatever.

To me it felt like the end of legitimate downtown retail came when McNally's closed its Portage Place store. That was about the time I stopped doing all of my Christmas shopping downtown as I could no longer find all of the things I needed...

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I would agree, I think it was clear 25 years ago that downtown's days as a retail hub were behind it. In some ways Portage Place was kind of the last stab at putting that critical mass together... it was a project that was more aspirational than one designed to meet an actual existing need.

But that said, the baseline of minimum downtown retail is probably lower than I would have expected. Even without the big department stores and chain merchants, I kind of thought downtown would chug along with at least some basic stuff, like a few clothing stores, a couple of movie theatres - sort of like downtown Edmonton where it isn't some cornucopia of options but at least the basics are covered. But for the last 20 years the pattern has been clear... the businesses are hanging on downtown until they go bankrupt, then the downtown store closes and no store replaces it. Or a much lesser one does, e.g. a national chain store closes only to be replaced by someone who basically resells cheap stuff they buy on DHGate or whatever.

To me it felt like the end of legitimate downtown retail came when McNally's closed its Portage Place store. That was about the time I stopped doing all of my Christmas shopping downtown as I could no longer find all of the things I needed...

It's sad really, that what should be the most vibrant part of the city was sort of hung out to dry with the development of suburban mega-retail districts. The safety-perception of DT did not help either, and unfortunately, the development and return of a more healthy downtown population is coming too late.

That said, some retail will return in time as more and more residential development occurs and we reach more critical mass. I wonder if in the future there won't be at least some legacy retailers returning, albeit in much smaller locations than they were in their heydays. Seems unlikely today, but all is not lost forever.

[cslusarc]

After thinking about it, I think the best new use for the Downtown Bay would be for Wamart to open a Supercentre in the basement, ground & 2nd floors and a Walmart call centre on floors 3 to 6.

[CoryB]

Walmart would be good for downtown as they are one of the top 5 grocery retailers in Canada and likely in the top 2. They also check a lot of other boxes.

That said there is less than zero chance it will happen. Walmart likes their flat suburban boxes. It also wouldn't take long for them to uncover the above average risk of theft in downtown retail. Also the relatively close proximity of the Empress location would be deemed "good enough".

The opportunity is definitely on the table right now for someone to step forward with a plan for the downtown grocery store that people have long wished for. Picture a typical suburban Superstore but with the clothing, home goods, cosmetics, pharmacy, etc on the second floor, groceries on the main floor, the standard Superstore co-tenant Good Life in the basement long with offices and backroom storage.

Personally I would take it a step further and make the cosmetic/pharmacy/etc section a full on "Shoppers" in terms of branding, products, etc basically a store within the store but without the food section. I am actually somewhat surprised that model hasn't rolled out widely already as it would really cement the ties between the two chains and it isn't like those elements have any top of market branding within Superstore as they are just generic departments right now.

I am actually surprised Loblaws didn't develop out their Whole Foods clone (Nutshell) then they could have had four mini stores within their larger format stores: Shoppers, Joe Fresh (clothing), Nutshell (health/organic/vegan foods and products) and T&T for their Asian section.

[ue]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Hydro Place was actually the project that was thought to be a possible savior for downtown retail. MTS Centre, especially before the return of the NHL, was more focused on the nightlife aspects such as restaurants, etc.

Even then it's been pretty clear downtown retail has been in full retreat for 25+ years and any blimps were more anomalies than trends. I remember when I started work downtown in the mid 90s the typical lunch beat (for me) was going to one of the many music stores to check over what I could find there. As recent as 10 years ago (even more) you could still go hunting for music, video games, etc at lunch. Now all that is gone. Not because the retail as a whole has disappeared but that is how downtown has evolved. Now its most independent stores with lower end merchandise that is heavily marked up.

To be fair, Into the Music exists in the Exchange. Video games are a harder bet, but that has transitioned more towards streaming and downloading than physical media.

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I would agree, I think it was clear 25 years ago that downtown's days as a retail hub were behind it. In some ways Portage Place was kind of the last stab at putting that critical mass together... it was a project that was more aspirational than one designed to meet an actual existing need.

But that said, the baseline of minimum downtown retail is probably lower than I would have expected. Even without the big department stores and chain merchants, I kind of thought downtown would chug along with at least some basic stuff, like a few clothing stores, a couple of movie theatres - sort of like downtown Edmonton where it isn't some cornucopia of options but at least the basics are covered. But for the last 20 years the pattern has been clear... the businesses are hanging on downtown until they go bankrupt, then the downtown store closes and no store replaces it. Or a much lesser one does, e.g. a national chain store closes only to be replaced by someone who basically resells cheap stuff they buy on DHGate or whatever.

To me it felt like the end of legitimate downtown retail came when McNally's closed its Portage Place store. That was about the time I stopped doing all of my Christmas shopping downtown as I could no longer find all of the things I needed...

It's funny reading this. For one, prior to the recent Staples and Bay closures, it felt like Portage Ave was a more solid retail street than Jasper Ave. While Downtown Edmonton has grown and revitalized and such, the new commercial developments have been very focused on restaurants and bars, with the occasional boutique thrown in. I suppose both cities missed the urban retail renaissance of the 2000s.

But also, in Edmonton, although the downtown overall seems to have better amenities. City Centre, though not the healthiest mall, isn't as depressed as Portage Place. I'd argue that with the Exchange boutiques, that side of retail is better in Downtown Winnipeg. There isn't anything like Into the Music, Toad Hall, the vintage shops, etc. You'd have to go to Whyte or 124th for stuff like that.

There's actually complaints from people who live downtown in Edmonton who find the retail options lacking in much the same way people are commenting on Winnipeg in this thread. Many downtown residents will hop on the LRT to Southgate, even for the same stores that have a downtown branch. For example, the Bay at Southgate is the city's 'main' store much like the Polo Park one is for Winnipeg. There's also been a lack of a full grocery store in the core since Sobeys left about 5 years ago. However, there are more options both coming (a Loblaws City Market is opening in the Ice District) and on the periphery (there's a Save-On at the edge of Downtown).

There's also more 'basic' retail stuff just outside the downtown core, in Oliver, which for most is the high-density residential extension of the core. I'm not sure there's a Winnipeg equivalent, though Calgary's Beltline is similar. It's mostly along 104 Ave's strip malls, rather than West Jasper Ave, but there's 2 grocery stores (Safeway and Loblaws City Market), MEC, HomeSense, Winners, Staples, Dollarama (which also exists in City Centre), etc.

As horrible an urban experience as Oliver Square is (the main strip mall on 104 Ave), it still provides regular amenities that there just aren't downtown in Winnipeg. None of those things except MEC and Dollarama exist downtown, and the closest full grocers are No Frills on Notre Dame and Safeway on River, both downtown-adjacent, but not in the same way as the Edmonton examples are. And there's still nothing like Staples, HomeSense, or Winners.

[ue]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Walmart would be good for downtown as they are one of the top 5 grocery retailers in Canada and likely in the top 2. They also check a lot of other boxes.

That said there is less than zero chance it will happen. Walmart likes their flat suburban boxes. It also wouldn't take long for them to uncover the above average risk of theft in downtown retail. Also the relatively close proximity of the Empress location would be deemed "good enough".

The opportunity is definitely on the table right now for someone to step forward with a plan for the downtown grocery store that people have long wished for. Picture a typical suburban Superstore but with the clothing, home goods, cosmetics, pharmacy, etc on the second floor, groceries on the main floor, the standard Superstore co-tenant Good Life in the basement long with offices and backroom storage.

Personally I would take it a step further and make the cosmetic/pharmacy/etc section a full on "Shoppers" in terms of branding, products, etc basically a store within the store but without the food section. I am actually somewhat surprised that model hasn't rolled out widely already as it would really cement the ties between the two chains and it isn't like those elements have any top of market branding within Superstore as they are just generic departments right now.

I am actually surprised Loblaws didn't develop out their Whole Foods clone (Nutshell) then they could have had four mini stores within their larger format stores: Shoppers, Joe Fresh (clothing), Nutshell (health/organic/vegan foods and products) and T&T for their Asian section.

Something like this would work well for Downtown Winnipeg and cover a lot of basics. It's designed very similarly to this, by Polo Park, even if not purpose-built for it. I'd build it Downtown without the big front-facing parking lots of course, or by retrofitting existing buildings, such as the Bay (sort of like this in Calgary) or part of Portage Place.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ue

It's funny reading this. For one, prior to the recent Staples and Bay closures, it felt like Portage Ave was a more solid retail street than Jasper Ave. While Downtown Edmonton has grown and revitalized and such, the new commercial developments have been very focused on restaurants and bars, with the occasional boutique thrown in. I suppose both cities missed the urban retail renaissance of the 2000s.

But also, in Edmonton, although the downtown overall seems to have better amenities. City Centre, though not the healthiest mall, isn't as depressed as Portage Place. I'd argue that with the Exchange boutiques, that side of retail is better in Downtown Winnipeg. There isn't anything like Into the Music, Toad Hall, the vintage shops, etc. You'd have to go to Whyte or 124th for stuff like that.

There's actually complaints from people who live downtown in Edmonton who find the retail options lacking in much the same way people are commenting on Winnipeg in this thread. Many downtown residents will hop on the LRT to Southgate, even for the same stores that have a downtown branch. For example, the Bay at Southgate is the city's 'main' store much like the Polo Park one is for Winnipeg. There's also been a lack of a full grocery store in the core since Sobeys left about 5 years ago. However, there are more options both coming (a Loblaws City Market is opening in the Ice District) and on the periphery (there's a Save-On at the edge of Downtown).

There's also more 'basic' retail stuff just outside the downtown core, in Oliver, which for most is the high-density residential extension of the core. I'm not sure there's a Winnipeg equivalent, though Calgary's Beltline is similar. It's mostly along 104 Ave's strip malls, rather than West Jasper Ave, but there's 2 grocery stores (Safeway and Loblaws City Market), MEC, HomeSense, Winners, Staples, Dollarama (which also exists in City Centre), etc.

As horrible an urban experience as Oliver Square is (the main strip mall on 104 Ave), it still provides regular amenities that there just aren't downtown in Winnipeg. None of those things except MEC and Dollarama exist downtown, and the closest full grocers are No Frills on Notre Dame and Safeway on River, both downtown-adjacent, but not in the same way as the Edmonton examples are. And there's still nothing like Staples, HomeSense, or Winners.

When I was in university in the 00s I lived at Jasper and 111 and did not have a car. I won't say downtown shopping was better in Edmonton by orders of magnitude or anything, but I appreciated things like having the Save-On Foods basically across the street from me, I liked the fact that ECC was a decent mall to shop at (even though realistically the 100 bus could get me to WEM in not much more time than it would take me to walk there), and I liked the fact that there were places like Winners to buy clothes at downtown, which matters when you're a student on a budget.

But yes, that said, there's no question that in both cities, the real action in downtown CRUs has been with restaurants and lounges, and not so much actual stores. Which in Edmonton's case is especially odd given the sheer amount of residential growth that has happened there... much more than what we've seen in Winnipeg.

[GreyGarden]

I've definitely noticed that Edmonton has been getting an increasing number of high density projects in the Canada threads. I know in 2019 their downtown population was pretty much the same ours though, so I guess the similarities in experience aren't too surprising. I've never been to Edmonton so I have no idea what the bigger picture is in terms of their urban area.

As its been mentioned here, I'm hopeful that niche stores will open up around the downtown to serve the core's population needs. I don't know about downtown, but I'm hopeful about neighbourhoods like Osborne, West Broadway, the Exchange and St B. It seems to me that the the population of the downtown and those neighbourhoods are becoming more affluent and some retail should eventually follow.