Winnipeg Ice

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Since we have heard no word I would say they are still waiting for approval. I'm not sure if it is normal for approval to take this long?

I think the site the Ice want to build on is in the RM of Macdonald but their plan is dependent on the Province giving approval for traffic controls (most likely traffic lights) on McGillivary where the site would connect to the road network.

They likely also need a detailed traffic study of the area.

[esquire]

^ The traffic situation has the potential to be extremely messy at The Rink. When I was there a week or so ago, I saw that you have to turn off the highway to a local street, then to another local street before reaching the parking lot. It could be a gong show getting in and out when there are 4,500+ people in attendance, crawling down small 2 lane streets. They would at a minimum have to add one more access point to McGillivray... perhaps Loudon Road (with traffic lights at McGillivray)? I don't know how else they could do it.

As lacklustre as the U of M's arena is, at least getting in and out before and after games is a total non-issue. Even if the crowds could theoretically reach the 5,000 range it would still be easily handled by the roads in place around campus.

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yeah, fair enough. But I can understand the league's concern given that the ICE have what is probably one of the most exciting and promising young teams in the CHL... I could see this team challenging for the Memorial Cup in a year or two. Yet there is minimal awareness of the team or the WHL in Winnipeg, at least beyond the small hardcore of mostly "hockey people" who pay attention because they are somehow involved in the system. Media coverage is minimal too, at most there are small blurbs in the paper or CJOB will mention the game scores. That's it. I'm sure the WHL expected a bigger splash than this and can't help but be disappointed by the near total anonymity that the team operates in.

I'd be curious to hear what the players think, going from a place like Cranbrook where you're the main attraction to here, where you play in a junior B rink and people haven't heard of your team, let alone you as a player.

Anyway, I realize that hardly anyone cares about this, but I find the way that it is all playing out kind of fascinating...

The players love it. They have access to the best training facility east of the Lower Mainland. They play in front of a mostly packed house and tbh I don't believe their attendance will be much more in the new arena. 1500 people at 98% capacity or 2000-2500 people at 45-50% capacity in the new rink. In terms of the crowd at the games I think they will always be in that range. Brandon does 3500-4000 depending on how competitive the team is.

IMO the media coverage has been pretty good and they've been marketed well. I don't listen to 1290 that often but when I have flipped it on for the drive home I've heard talk about the Ice, their recent/upcoming games and even interviews with players. If I'm listening to OB they always mention the Ice on the :25 sports updates.

It's no different than the other NHL markets, the junior team is either the 3rd or 4th team in the city, I'd say probably 4th challenging for 3rd here in terms of attention with the Moose. There's a high probability that the Ice will be the last major hockey team playing the city this season, the Jets, Moose and Blues are all pretty much out of their respective playoff races. I think that will be a huge boost to the brand and the WHL in this city generally.

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ The traffic situation has the potential to be extremely messy at The Rink. When I was there a week or so ago, I saw that you have to turn off the highway to a local street, then to another local street before reaching the parking lot. It could be a gong show getting in and out when there are 4,500+ people in attendance, crawling down small 2 lane streets. They would at a minimum have to add one more access point to McGillivray... perhaps Loudon Road (with traffic lights at McGillivray)? I don't know how else they could do it.

As lacklustre as the U of M's arena is, at least getting in and out before and after games is a total non-issue. Even if the crowds could theoretically reach the 5,000 range it would still be easily handled by the roads in place around campus.

McGillivray is a terrible road aside from this new Rink development. They need to align a service road and close off some of the residential streets. Have seen many accidents and close calls with people slamming on their breaks at 90 km/h for someone late flipping on a signal to make a left turn into residential, and I only drive down there to get to the Perimeter from Costco every other month.

[bomberjet]

Has anyone checked the RM of MacDonald website for zoning documents? As someone posted on the last page, seems they were going through the process.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Danny D Oh

The players love it. They have access to the best training facility east of the Lower Mainland. They play in front of a mostly packed house and tbh I don't believe their attendance will be much more in the new arena. 1500 people at 98% capacity or 2000-2500 people at 45-50% capacity in the new rink. In terms of the crowd at the games I think they will always be in that range. Brandon does 3500-4000 depending on how competitive the team is.

IMO the media coverage has been pretty good and they've been marketed well. I don't listen to 1290 that often but when I have flipped it on for the drive home I've heard talk about the Ice, their recent/upcoming games and even interviews with players. If I'm listening to OB they always mention the Ice on the :25 sports updates.

It's no different than the other NHL markets, the junior team is either the 3rd or 4th team in the city, I'd say probably 4th challenging for 3rd here in terms of attention with the Moose. There's a high probability that the Ice will be the last major hockey team playing the city this season, the Jets, Moose and Blues are all pretty much out of their respective playoff races. I think that will be a huge boost to the brand and the WHL in this city generally.

Interesting take. Regarding the first point, attendance would have to increase appreciably in the new building or this thing is dead in the water. Of the six games I've been to this season, the only ones I've been to that have been nearly full were the two Saturday night games I attended vs. Brandon. The rest have had maybe a little over a thousand in the house. And I suspect that a lot of the crowd is being comped... of the six games that I've attended, I've only paid for three of them. And I have more free tickets for my seventh game tomorrow. The free tickets have exposed me to the product and made it much more likely that I will buy a package of some kind down the road, but the fact remains that I've seen a lot of hockey for free so far.

I really have not seen much news coverage about the team... I don't listen to 1290 a whole lot but I have hardly ever heard any reference to the ICE there. I guess I must have missed those segments you heard. I flip through the Free Press daily and there might be an article or two a week... the Goldeyes get a fair bit more ink than the ICE do, at least so far.

To your last point, I agree that the playoffs will be the ICE's big moment. The Moose are pretty well out of it already and unless the Jets go on a tear their playoff chances are getting slim. Having the stage to themselves this spring could be the opportunity that 50 Below has been waiting for. It could make or break the team.

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by esquire

And I suspect that a lot of the crowd is being comped... of the six games that I've attended, I've only paid for three of them. And I have more free tickets for my seventh game tomorrow. The free tickets have exposed me to the product and made it much more likely that I will buy a package of some kind down the road, but the fact remains that I've seen a lot of hockey for free so far.

Yeah the tickets for any minor pro/semi-pro level team are often comped or given as promotional items for sponsors. The main thing for those franchises are those corporate partnerships and the money that flows in from them. At this point that's more of the business than selling walk-up tickets. The WHL should have no issue in Winnipeg, there are a lot of businesses operating at the right level to partner up with a WHL franchise.

The play in general for 50 below is to add ice to the market, run a busy building including a WHL team and potentially the MJHL Blues as well plus the hockey school type business which is in huge demand right now. If they operate the Ice at breakeven or a bit of a loss I doubt it has much impact on the overall business.

If they don't get the building up they will be in a bit of trouble in terms of being able to operate that entire business.

[Dalreg]

Wild idea but could this team build and move to Steinbach? Maybe Morden/Winkler?

A 4000 seat arena in one of these places would long term do quite well maybe?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Wild idea but could this team build and move to Steinbach? Maybe Morden/Winkler?

A 4000 seat arena in one of these places would long term do quite well maybe?

Steinbach would potentially be possible but would need to continue increasing its population, needs a new building, and would have to supplant the current MJHL team. I think Swift Current is the smallest CHL market as of right now if we're looking at CMA/CA figures. Steinbach wouldn't be much larger.

I think Steinbach's biggest problem would be that it would be pushing the WHL further east, and that league already has tight travel and long distances as it is. The Ice would almost certainly be better off staying in Winnipeg.

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Steinbach would potentially be possible but would need to continue increasing its population, needs a new building, and would have to supplant the current MJHL team. I think Swift Current is the smallest CHL market as of right now if we're looking at CMA/CA figures. Steinbach wouldn't be much larger.

I think Steinbach's biggest problem would be that it would be pushing the WHL further east, and that league already has tight travel and long distances as it is. The Ice would almost certainly be better off staying in Winnipeg.

Further East by half an hour? Not really a big problem now is it. At least in Steinbach the team could build a fan base East and South of Winnipeg that could call the team it's own.

Being the big fish in a small pond would be better than a small fish in the big pond.

[buzzg]

I think the Ice have been getting way more media attention than they deserve for what they are. There’s coverage in the papers, I too hear them talked about on 1290 fairly often as well. They have signs in every Subway lol.

In terms of comparing to Goldeyes - they’re the only team in that sport. Also the only other sport to cover in summer is CFL. Winter you have two local professional teams plus coverage of all the major leagues. No one cares about WHL here.

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Wild idea but could this team build and move to Steinbach? Maybe Morden/Winkler?

A 4000 seat arena in one of these places would long term do quite well maybe?

For this ownership group in particular their cash flow is based on running a hockey school and several arenas at the site on McGillivray, with the big arena being a moderately sized concert/event venue as well.

I doubt there's much money to be made against the costs of a WHL team in a real small town like that.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Danny D Oh

Yeah the tickets for any minor pro/semi-pro level team are often comped or given as promotional items for sponsors. The main thing for those franchises are those corporate partnerships and the money that flows in from them. At this point that's more of the business than selling walk-up tickets. The WHL should have no issue in Winnipeg, there are a lot of businesses operating at the right level to partner up with a WHL franchise.

The play in general for 50 below is to add ice to the market, run a busy building including a WHL team and potentially the MJHL Blues as well plus the hockey school type business which is in huge demand right now. If they operate the Ice at breakeven or a bit of a loss I doubt it has much impact on the overall business.

If they don't get the building up they will be in a bit of trouble in terms of being able to operate that entire business.

With all of the travel, coaching and player development costs and other expenses that go hand in hand with running what is a pretty big time operation, I would think that the potential for losses with a WHL team that is in all likelihood drawing no more than maybe 1,000 paid customers a night right now has to be substantial.... I can't imagine that it isn't weighing on their bottom line.

But I'm sure the ownership group factored a bit of a growth curve into their plans - they must have known that it would take some time to expose people to their product and turn them into paying customers, especially given that the Jets take up practically all of the oxygen in the room when it comes to hockey. The fact that they're deep-pocketed helps too.

I just don't see the towns in southern Manitoba being quite big enough to handle a WHL team just yet. If the ICE is going to work in southern Manitoba, it would have to be in Winnipeg.

Anyway, big game tonight... Moose Jaw is in town and the ICE are trying to claw their way back into first after a disappointing road trip to Alberta. I'm looking forward to it!

[dennis]

Steinbach may work with Steinbach and Hannover having a population in the 35000 to 40000 range and growing fast. Good corporate support with SCU, Loewen windows, the pharmaceutical company and good retail. A lot of new immigrants in the area may not understand hockey. Also Winnipeg is and Niverville are close by.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by dennis

Steinbach may work with Steinbach and Hannover having a population in the 35000 to 40000 range and growing fast. Good corporate support with SCU, Loewen windows, the pharmaceutical company and good retail. A lot of new immigrants in the area may not understand hockey. Also Winnipeg is and Niverville are close by.

I could see the day coming when it might work, but it's at least a decade off, maybe a couple. As JHikka pointed out, a new arena would have to be built and Steinbach has had trouble getting a new MJHL rink built, let alone a WHL venue.

But I can see the appeal being there for the WHL in that it could allow for a critical mass of Manitoba franchises... teams doing an eastern swing through Manitoba could play against 3 teams located here, with two (Winnipeg and Steinbach, or Morden-Winkler for that matter) being in close proximity to each other.

The WHL could probably get behind another team in the Manitoba market... I mean, look at the big corporate sponsors listed at the bottom of the WHL website. Of the 21 major sponsors listed, I count 4 Winnipeg-based businesses among them. That should generate some pull with the league.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I think the Ice have been getting way more media attention than they deserve for what they are. There’s coverage in the papers, I too hear them talked about on 1290 fairly often as well. They have signs in every Subway lol.

In terms of comparing to Goldeyes - they’re the only team in that sport. Also the only other sport to cover in summer is CFL. Winter you have two local professional teams plus coverage of all the major leagues. No one cares about WHL here.

Maybe you haven’t been living Canada for long but junior hockey is big in this country. Junior hockey teams also attract a different crowd than the NHL. Some of the most rabid fans are junior hockey fans. The team just got here and needs time to permeate its brand in the city.

[CoryB]

McGillivary isn't anywhere near the most dangerous road in the capital region. That said you can't be trying to push even 2,500 vehicles onto it without some sort of traffic controls.

The revenue stream for the Ice is basically use it as a driver for the RHA program. That program brings in about $500,000 per team each year. If you get players that go RHA->ICE->high NHL draft round demand for the RHA is going to absolutely explode.

In terms of the the Rink 5,000 seat arena, it will likely host the Ice, Blues, both Bisons teams and will likely add some sort of high level female teams, either comparable to the WHL or one of the semi-pro teams that the Olympic athletes play on, it will depend on what leagues they can find/help develop. It is also possible they might get other MJHL teams to base out of the big arena for games. Granted those don't necessarily bring in big attendance numbers but if you are doing a trade in rentable ice time plus getting ticket sales, concessions, etc it all counts towards the bottom line.

[esquire]

^ McGillivray is not that bad at normal traffic levels, but it is a high speed 2 lane road... throw some snow and ice in there and it could be treacherous when you combine highway traffic with a large number of impatient drivers waiting a long time to get out of a parking lot and willing to take a chance.

Interestingly, the Blues are already playing at The Rink, in the main arena that holds about 700 plus standing room. But even though 50 Below has made some effort to market the team, the attendance figures have been lousy as you would expect, all in the 50-300 range. If you remove the September games from the equation, they have cracked the 200 mark once since then.

There is something to buzz's point made earlier though... the WHL has been absent for so long from Winnipeg that people who aren't hardcore hockey fans or somehow involved in the hockey system may not know what the WHL is. They might think it's kids playing for fun or whatever as compared to one of the main pipelines of talent into the NHL. As it stands, the ICE might not even be on the radar of a casual fan who just wants to take his or her kids out to watch some affordable hockey. Reaching that person will take some time in a market this crowded with hockey.

[CoryB]

I have said it many times now, if you can trade a sheet of ice renting at around $200/hr for time in the 5,000 seat arena v having the larger arena sitting empty it is going to make sense all day long even with a couple hundred people in the crowd. You make money off the in-kind ice rental and make money off the concession sales. Most of those games are happening already someplace else and have ice time. And maybe you don't rent out a say 200 seat arena to a 6 year old practice but do similar in-kind trades to get other teams better facilities for games, etc and pickup a few bucks along the way.

The key to keep in mind is ice time, just about regardless of facilitate, in a prime slot is golden in this city. You open up a new facility and there will be lots of demand. The question is how to best leverage a sheet of ice with 5,000 seats and lots of concession stands.

[esquire]

All I can say is that I'm waiting with great interest on news about a groundbreaking. I would think that unless something really off the wall happens (i.e. Moose move and 50 Below works out a deal to move the ICE into Bell MTS Place), the team's continued presence in Winnipeg is going to require that a new venue be built.

Incidentally I was at the game last night and it was awesome, they won again, 5-1 over Moose Jaw. The team is a lot of fun to watch... and the games are very entertaining. I could see them making quite a playoff push this spring. Last night was the first weeknight game I've been to where it was pretty well a full house.