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Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 3:53 PM
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No, We Still Don't Need Drive-Throughs

No, We Still Don't Need Drive-Throughs


September 21, 2020

By Daniel Herriges

Read More: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/...drive-throughs

Quote:
.....

No doubt there will be strong pressure from chains on city planning departments to approve their new, drive-through-heavy, template designs even in urban environments where they’re not appropriate. Cities should be prepared to resist that pressure. But will they be? Or will they buy into the simplistic notion that the drive-through, thanks to COVID-19, is now the future?

- A drive-through is a markedly low-returning land use, in terms of the tax revenue it brings in versus other uses of the same land. It just so happens that the article that first brought Strong Towns to many readers' attention way back in 2012 was a proof of exactly this concept: a brand new Taco John's in Brainerd, Minnesota, when you actually do the math, is significantly less valuable than even a fairly drab, run-down strip of small local storefronts. — The reason is simple: the amount of non-place a drive-through restaurant requires is massive, and this drives the value down. It's not just the driving lanes and parking lot; it's things like stormwater buffers that end up being required to make up for all that asphalt.

- The flip side of revenue is expenses, and drive-throughs also impose more costs on your city than a lot of other things that could occupy the same piece of land. One reason is that they are absolutely massive local traffic generators. Sean Hayford Oleary made a striking comparison on Twitter between a Taco Bell and a 185-unit apartment building: which do you think brings in more revenue per acre? Which do you think is responsible for more traffic? It's an odd quirk of Your Brain on Cars™ that it's rare to see a groundswell of NIMBY opposition to a new Taco Bell because of traffic, but nearby traffic impacts are a common theme of the opponents of new apartment construction. Go figure.

- A drive-through makes for a miserable environment to walk, ride a bike, or use a wheelchair or other assistive mobility device. Every driveway access to or from the street is a potential conflict point where crashes can happen, because it's a site for unexpected behavior. Drivers may not be looking for people on the sidewalk, or someone may not expect the vehicle in front of them to brake. On top of this, you have the "wasteland" factor: people on sidewalks feel most comfortable when there is a space-defining, hard edge to follow (a psychological phenomenon called thigmotaxis), such as a continuous wall of storefronts. Driveways break up this wall, and create an imposing and unpleasant environment to walk through.

Drive-throughs just aren't necessary. The needs they meet can be met in other ways.

• Maybe you have a disability and going inside the business is a significant hassle, unsafe, or impossible for you.

• Maybe you are high risk for COVID complications for one or more reasons, and so you are really are not comfortable going in, even just to stand in line for take-out.

• Maybe you are a parent with a young child, who is spared by the drive-through from the need to unbuckle your kid from a car seat and get them into a stroller all while averting any meltdowns.

.....



Total value of the “Old and Blighted” block: $1,104,000. Total value of the “Shiny and New” drive-through Taco John’s block: $618,000.







That T-Bell likely generates more traffic than the 185-unit apartment building behind it. Despite being lower-taxed residential, the apartment generates 1.4x as much property tax as the T-Bell (per acre — or 6.7x total).


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  #2  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 4:01 PM
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stand-alone chain restaurants with a sea of parking and drive through are horrible waste of space. Likewise with a CVS or Walgreens surrounded by a 1,000 acres of parking.
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 5:08 PM
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my otherwise decently urban neighborhood has two utterly atrocious suburban-style fast food chains with the drive-thru/sea-of-parking arrangement.


McD's: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9702...7i16384!8i8192

(this is the old 70s one, it's currently being rebuilt as another crap-ass suburban-style McD's to shit upon the neighborhood for another generation or two)


BK: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9686...7i16384!8i8192

(this one is beyond pathetic, i've never seen that massive parking lot even 25% full, EVER! such a stupid waste)



all cross the city, chicago's neighborhoods are pockmarked with this shit from mcd's/BK/wendy's/Taco Hell/etc.

fuck them all.





we did have one recent victory where this: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9477...7i13312!8i6656

was replaced with this: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9477...7i16384!8i8192


so, baby steps...... baby steps.
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 5:11 PM
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And plus when a few was only doing drive thru orders they wouldn’t let me order on my bike.
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 5:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M II A II R II K View Post
And plus when a few was only doing drive thru orders they wouldn’t let me order on my bike.
None of them will. Liability reasons.
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  #6  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 5:49 PM
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Surface parking and strip malls annoy me more than drive thrus, actually
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 5:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Surface parking and strip malls annoy me more than drive thrus, actually
If we are saying drive thrus are needed in a post covid world, then technically surface parking would no longer be needed. People would use the drive thru and never want to actually park and go inside. So the same CVS (or McDonalds...etc) could occupy half the space. This is actually what you see now, at least around here. Long lines at drive thrus and un-used and empty parking lots in front of them.
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 7:15 PM
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So-called futurist Elon Musk evidently thinks otherwise:

Quote:
Wall Street has been waiting for Tesla’s battery technology day for months . . . . Tuesday evening, in a setting that resembled a drive-in movie with hundreds of Tesla vehicles sitting in a California parking lot, CEO Elon Musk listed several innovations designed to cut battery cost per kilowatt-hour in half.
https://www.barrons.com/articles/tes...on-51600818909
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 7:52 PM
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I do a lot of work with a major coffee chain and can confirm that drive-thru is becoming an increased focus. On the other hand, they are using this opportunity to pivot away from open, airy indoor cafe areas and more towards a walk-up window for non-drivers, similar to how Dutch Bros operates in Phoenix and Portland. This walkup window can either be outdoors with a plaza/seating, or indoors with a small waiting area and no seating (imagine a pharmacy or dispensary).

The advantage of this approach is that it reduces their land footprint, so they can fit onto smaller/more oddly-shaped sites or even vintage buildings in existing walkable areas.

Personally I don't have an issue with drive-thrus themselves. It's the customer parking that often takes up an inordinate amount of space relative to how much sales are generated. That's really what regulations should be targeting in order to produce more space-efficient, urban friendly layouts. Often the customer parking is a deadweight loss that is provided merely to satisfy local zoning codes.
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 7:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Surface parking and strip malls annoy me more than drive thrus, actually
I mostly agree, but you can't really create a drive-thru without a large footprint to accommodate turning radii. I guess cities could say that restaurants can have them as long as they elevate the dining room and use the street level space for the drive-thru, but that would probably make drive-thrus not economically viable.
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 8:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I mostly agree, but you can't really create a drive-thru without a large footprint to accommodate turning radii. I guess cities could say that restaurants can have them as long as they elevate the dining room and use the street level space for the drive-thru, but that would probably make drive-thrus not economically viable.
This discussion overstates the extent to which these chains will build drive-thrus in walkable, urban areas. 95% or more of these stores are in heavily auto-dominated environments with large lots. Drive thru/pedestrian conflicts are really not a significant issue at the vast majority of these stores. And I say this with an awful McDonalds in my highly urban neighborhood where cars frequently block the sidewalk. It is a localized problem occurring in only a few places, that requires localized solutions (pedestrian zoning overlays, restriction of curb cuts, etc).
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 8:18 PM
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The only drive-through anywhere near me is in the process of becoming the apartment building shown in this rendering. I tried to draw in where the former drive-thru for the Burger King (BK) went behind the corner building. It's gone now as construction proceeds.


https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...ight=FRANCISCO
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 8:39 PM
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Perhaps drive thrus should be incorporated into much larger buildings, preferably in the underground parking section to make it worth it.
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 8:42 PM
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There's a surprising number of BKs in SF. Now that the Van Ness location lost its drive thru, only 2 out of 6 BKs in SF have them.
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 9:12 PM
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
There's a surprising number of BKs in SF. Now that the Van Ness location lost its drive thru, only 2 out of 6 BKs in SF have them.
The tragedy is that the homeless guys who used to stand at the driveway exits and hold up exiting cars for passing pedestrians (in hope said pedestrians would tip them some change) no longer have a gig.
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Old Posted Sep 24, 2020, 4:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
I do a lot of work with a major coffee chain and can confirm that drive-thru is becoming an increased focus. On the other hand, they are using this opportunity to pivot away from open, airy indoor cafe areas and more towards a walk-up window for non-drivers, similar to how Dutch Bros operates in Phoenix and Portland. This walkup window can either be outdoors with a plaza/seating, or indoors with a small waiting area and no seating (imagine a pharmacy or dispensary).

The advantage of this approach is that it reduces their land footprint, so they can fit onto smaller/more oddly-shaped sites or even vintage buildings in existing walkable areas.

Personally I don't have an issue with drive-thrus themselves. It's the customer parking that often takes up an inordinate amount of space relative to how much sales are generated. That's really what regulations should be targeting in order to produce more space-efficient, urban friendly layouts. Often the customer parking is a deadweight loss that is provided merely to satisfy local zoning codes.
Walk up windows aren't that unusual in Miami. They are basically a staple of Cuban Cafe places. You occasionally see them in McDonalds or other locations as well.

Counter service in South Beach: https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7853...7i16384!8i8192

McDonads street front service in South Beach:
https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7902...7i13312!8i6656

One of the ubiquitous Cuban coffee windows, here in Little Havana:
https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7656...7i16384!8i8192

or: https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7658...7i16384!8i8192
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Old Posted Sep 24, 2020, 9:01 AM
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robots will work in fast food in the future so there is no reason not to put fast food underground like in elon musks tunnels.
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Old Posted Sep 24, 2020, 2:22 PM
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Fast food underground...

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Old Posted Sep 24, 2020, 7:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M II A II R II K View Post
Perhaps drive thrus should be incorporated into much larger buildings, preferably in the underground parking section to make it worth it.
Columbus forced the oldest White Castle in the country to put the drive-thru in a parking garage for a new yuppie box. Gentrification can be a cruel thing.


https://www.columbusunderground.com/


https://www.columbusunderground.com/
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