Will electric cars encourage sprawl?

[chris08876]

Got me thinking about the growth and inevitable dominance of electric cars that they will actually be a boon IMO for our cities, encouraging the continued car dominance that has caused the plague of urban sprawl.

Do you see electric cars as a boon for our cities in that they will enable urban sprawl and keep it as the acceptable standard? Given the range, the lower cost compared to filling up with fuel. Higher commuting costs might encourage some folks to live closer to work, but if it becomes cheap, it'll only further feed into the car/highway mentality.

[iheartthed]

I don't think fuel costs have ever been a limiting factor in American sprawl, because fuel here has always been fairly inexpensive. I don't think electric vehicles will change the dynamics one way or the other.

[cabasse]

EVs make me feel less guilty about the possibility of choosing to live in a SFH with some kind of yard in the future, especially if I go the solar roof route. who knows, might even move to an inner-ring burb.

[JManc]

Commuting time rather than commuting cost is a bigger factor in where people live. Do you want to sit on teh freeway for an hour each way and live in a big(ger) house or commute half that long and live in a smaller place. EV's won't impact that dynamic. They might make a difference in Europe and other countries where gas is expensive..

[LouisVanDerWright]

In theory self driving cars will greatly reduce traffic.

That said, I don't think they will reverse the recent trends we've seen. People aren't flocking back to the inner city because the commute is too long or expensive to the burbs, they are moving because of demographic and cultural shifts.

The post war explosion of suburbia was touched off by massive surplus industrial capacity after WWII leading to a temporary orgy of imperial delights for all of America's newly minted mini feudal Lords. That lifestyle is not sustainable nor is it desirable. What we are seeing now is a reversion to the mean where the temporary donut hole of inner city America is closing as our cities mature and the post war damage heals. Soon we will return to the European bullseye format where the central core is wealthy, then there is a ring of poor inner suburbs followed by another ring of wealthy exurban estates. That is the natural order of urban wealth distribution since the rise of Rome.

[Jasoncw]

Electric cars will have a huge impact on air and noise pollution. Most people don't realize just how loud and unfresh our cities/suburbs are. Aside from direct quality of life improvements there will also be health improvements.

In terms of driving behavior I don't think it will have any impact, because by the time electric cars are the norm, the range will be so high that it won't be a factor. Fuel is fuel.

There may be some impact because of gas stations. In cities, gas stations are often crime hotspots. And in general there can be pollution issues related to gas stations. But gas stations also usually double as convenience stores. And I think gas stations can be more expensive to redevelop because of cleanup costs. It also seems like gas stations are common businesses/wealth builders for immigrant families, so the eventual decline of gas stations may impact some groups more than others.

I think there will be a lot of unanticipated impacts, but I don't think they'll affect the basics of driving.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Jasoncw

There may be some impact because of gas stations. In cities, gas stations are often crime hotspots. And in general there can be pollution issues related to gas stations. But gas stations also usually double as convenience stores. And I think gas stations can be more expensive to redevelop because of cleanup costs. It also seems like gas stations are common businesses/wealth builders for immigrant families, so the eventual decline of gas stations may impact some groups more than others.

gas stations, and their myriad associated curb cuts, are also 100% fucking horrible from an urbanism perspective.

check out how this intersection in chicago is completely ruined by their presence: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9688...7i16384!8i8192

two gas stations, one former gas station turned into an auto repair shop, and only one decent urban building holding the corner of a very prominent intersection.

fortunately, the former gas station turned into an auto repair shop has now been demo'ed and is currently being turned into a 4 story rental building that holds the corner.

with the coming tide of electrical vehicles, hopefully the other two gas stations in that streetview will be redeveloped at some point in my lifetime.



the demise of the city gas station can only be a MAJOR positive for the built environment, and can't come soon enough.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

gas stations, and their myriad associated curb cuts, are also 100% fucking horrible from an urbanism perspective.

check out how this intersection in chicago is ruined by their presence: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9688...7i16384!8i8192

two gas stations, one former gas station turned into an auto repair shop, and only one decent urban building holding the corner of a prominent intersection.

fortunately, the former gas station turned into an auto repair shop has now been demo'ed and is currently being turned into a 4 story rental building that holds the corner.



the demise of the city gas station can only be a MAJOR positive for the built environment, and can't come soon enough.

Gas stations are usually terrible candidates for redevelopment given the ground contamination from storing fuel underground for decades. I'm surprised it makes sense for a 4-storey rental given the last environmental assessment I saw for one basically said complete soil remediation would be required for residential development. Ended up being cost prohibitive at the time and I think the site is still sitting boarded up.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

I'm surprised it makes sense for a 4-storey rental given the last environmental assessment I saw for one basically said complete soil remediation would be required for residential development.

i never saw the numbers, but somehow they made them work because it's currently several stories up. the intersection in question is about a mile east of me.

she's not a beauty by any stretch of the imagination, but with 40 rental units and ground floor retail, it's still light years better than a shitty old gas station destroying the intersection.


source: https://www.uptownupdate.com/2018/12...97544044043396

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

source: https://www.uptownupdate.com/2018/12...97544044043396

Let's talk about the guy on the bike and the Audi moments from a head-on collision.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Gas stations are usually terrible candidates for redevelopment given the ground contamination from storing fuel underground for decades. I'm surprised it makes sense for a 4-storey rental given the last environmental assessment I saw for one basically said complete soil remediation would be required for residential development. Ended up being cost prohibitive at the time and I think the site is still sitting boarded up.

Gas stations in Manhattan and Brooklyn are severely endangered because they are being bought up and developed. There may only be 3 or 4 gas stations still existing in Manhattan below 96th Street, but a decade ago there were dozens.

For example, the intersection of Houston and Lafayette in 2009 and 2019:

2009 - https://goo.gl/maps/nLaEbuS8MvAUkSpK7
2019 - https://goo.gl/maps/ugxhgZWg1kybejt58

A few blocks away at Second Avenue and 1st in 2009 and 2019:

2009 - https://goo.gl/maps/UfhFHSTW1LiXd96m6
2019 - https://goo.gl/maps/ZaVeRKqbz5gNeepE7

This is happening all over Manhattan, and across much of Brooklyn and western Queens.

[Obadno]

I dont think it will cause more or less, at this point we can sprawl as much as we want. Its a matter of personal preference and culture at this point.

[bilbao58]

These would be electric cars that don't spontaneously combust, right?

[mhays]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i never saw the numbers, but somehow they made them work because it's currently several stories up. the intersection in question is about a mile east of me.

she's not a beauty by any stretch of the imagination, but with 40 rental units and ground floor retail, it's still light years better than a shitty old gas station destroying the intersection.


source: https://www.uptownupdate.com/2018/12...97544044043396

Costs vary depending on a bunch of factors...levels of pollution, mitigation plan, who's responsible, soils, whether you already built in shoring and excavation costs, and so on. But it's generally a big hurdle.

[xzmattzx]

Are electric cars really the inevitable future? Electric cars won't really replace gas-powered cars until electric cars function like gas-powered cars: they can be charged in a few minutes (getting gas is "recharging"), can go 400 miles without recharging, doesn't lose battery life when not in use (gas doesn't get used up when the car is off), and doesn't need a new battery in 15 years (how many cars have had to get new gas tanks?).

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

Are electric cars really the inevitable future? Electric cars won't really replace gas-powered cars until electric cars function like gas-powered cars: they can be charged in a few minutes (getting gas is "recharging"), can go 400 miles without recharging, doesn't lose battery life when not in use (gas doesn't get used up when the car is off), and doesn't need a new battery in 15 years (how many cars have had to get new gas tanks?).

Gasoline does evaporate, a lot of electric vehicles have a range upwards of 300 miles per charge, and 15 years is, more or less, the lifespan of a combustion car engine.

[xzmattzx]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Gasoline does evaporate, a lot of electric vehicles have a range upwards of 300 miles per charge, and 15 years is, more or less, the lifespan of a combustion car engine.

You still can't fully charge a battery in 3 minutes.

[lio45]

I've always been of the opinion that the mass availability of self-driving pods running on clean power will likely cause a relative boost of property values in suburban areas that are well-located in terms of freeway network access, to the relative detriment of more dense and currently significantly pricier (based on current proximity to stuff) inner city areas.

So, that's a pretty clear answer to the OP's question

[JManc]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Gasoline does evaporate, a lot of electric vehicles have a range upwards of 300 miles per charge, and 15 years is, more or less, the lifespan of a combustion car engine.

Modern drivetrains (past 20 years or so) can go well beyond 15 years and hundreds of thousands of miles but rarely do because everything around them starts failing and when repair costs begin to outweigh the car's total value, they are often junked. Very few people are going to invest $1500 on a new AC system on a 10 year-old Altima with 180,000 miles even if the car still runs excellent. If carefully maintained, ICE powered cars can last indefinitely. The jury is out if there will be 50 year-old Teslas on the road.

[ocman]

I think commute times have a bigger impact on sprawl than oil prices. If self-driving cars happen to eliminate the reality of congestion, that might have a bigger effect. Say, a lot more people choosing to live in Inland Empire and commuting to LA.