Winnipeg | Portage and Main

[Geebrr]

Originally Posted by kalabaw

You make a very good analogy there. And I hope people realize that people are not as bad as they think and that opening a bloody intersection would cause chaos and end of times for Winnipeg.

I was talking to a colleague and he is against opening the intersection because Winnipegers are a bunch of hard-headed, lacking discipline bunch of people. He said people will just cross the street and ignore traffic lights which could cause accident, further aggravating traffic. I mean c'mon! Do people really believe Winnipegers are that bad? Besides, you don't know undisciplined pedestrians until you see some countries in Asia!

Yet they do not really do that at the 8 lanes of traffic going up Portage.

I swear, the logic that some people have makes me question how the majority of people function day to day.

Screw the barriers, get rid of Portage and Main as an intersection all together and make it a pedestrian only public space.

Sick of these whiny suburbanites who never leave their area or vehicle. They complain about downtown, yet fight tooth and nail to oppose anything to improve it.

I want road repairs placed 100% on gas at the pump as a tax. How about that? I am tired of fixing roads for people too lazy to find transit options outside their own vehicle.

[windypeg]

Originally Posted by kalabaw

You make a very good analogy there. And I hope people realize that people are not as bad as they think and that opening a bloody intersection would cause chaos and end of times for Winnipeg.

I was talking to a colleague and he is against opening the intersection because Winnipegers are a bunch of hard-headed, lacking discipline bunch of people. He said people will just cross the street and ignore traffic lights which could cause accident, further aggravating traffic. I mean c'mon! Do people really believe Winnipegers are that bad? Besides, you don't know undisciplined pedestrians until you see some countries in Asia!

It makes no sense! There are pedestrian crossings at just about every other intersection along Portage and along Main downtown. Sure there's the odd jaywalker but it's not like traffic is at a standstill because of people constantly just walking into traffic. 99% of people wait for the lights, why would this intersection be any different? Also, the barriers are only 2 feet high. If people were really that bad wouldn't they already be jumping over the barriers and running across?

Every argument against opening is just so nonsensical. I try to have civil debates with people but it is really hard when they all sound like raving lunatics.

[trueviking]

I find it annoying that Barrier-Free Manitoba wouldn't come out and say nine minutes on five elevators and two ramps is not an acceptable way to cross the street...and that's only when the private businesses are open...otherwise its the length of 4 football fields to go from corner to corner...how are they not all over that....apparently they posted slight support on their facebook and everyone went nuts....why do they exist if not to advocate for that?

[Ando]

Originally Posted by trueviking

I find it annoying that Barrier-Free Manitoba wouldn't come out and say nine minutes on five elevators and two ramps is not an acceptable way to cross the street...and that's only when the private businesses are open...otherwise its the length of 4 football fields to go from corner to corner...how are they not all over that....apparently they posted slight support on their facebook and everyone went nuts....why do they exist if not to advocate for that?

Totally agree, it's bizarre that they are not supporting it.

[esquire]

^ Ironic given that their name is, quite literally, "Barrier-Free Manitoba"

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by trueviking

I find it annoying that Barrier-Free Manitoba wouldn't come out and say nine minutes on five elevators and two ramps is not an acceptable way to cross the street...and that's only when the private businesses are open...otherwise its the length of 4 football fields to go from corner to corner...how are they not all over that....apparently they posted slight support on their facebook and everyone went nuts....why do they exist if not to advocate for that?

Maybe some of the accessibility activists also "find it annoying" that the Open-Campaign are suddenly advocates of accessibility issues now that it suits the Open cause. Of course the irony is that the Exchange District is one of the most in-accessible areas of the city for those with mobility issues, particularly those in wheelchairs. "Open Portage and Main because we care about those in wheelchairs having to travel 4 football fields to cross the street!.... When they do cross the street though, too bad if they can't access the heritage buildings on the other side of the street in the Exchange. A ramp would completely ruin the character."

[Wpg_Guy]

While I agree accessibility is an issue everywhere the reason we are talking about Portage and Main today seems to be lost on everyone. The agreement keeping the intersection closed expires in 2019, this is the first opportunity anyone has had to weigh in on the impact of having it closed for 40 years.

[Wpg_Guy]

Originally Posted by Geebrr

Yet they do not really do that at the 8 lanes of traffic going up Portage.

I swear, the logic that some people have makes me question how the majority of people function day to day.

Screw the barriers, get rid of Portage and Main as an intersection all together and make it a pedestrian only public space.

Sick of these whiny suburbanites who never leave their area or vehicle. They complain about downtown, yet fight tooth and nail to oppose anything to improve it.

I want road repairs placed 100% on gas at the pump as a tax. How about that? I am tired of fixing roads for people too lazy to find transit options outside their own vehicle.

When infrastructure that is well designed is created people will behave. When the demographics of those able to access the intersection is broadened ie pedestrians, cyclists, motorists people will adapt and follow the rules like every other intersection in the city.

[buzzg]

Yeah, you don't get people running into oncoming traffic at Fort or McDermot playing Frogger, why would it happen at P&M? Do people Jaywalk there – of course, but only when they can actually cross the street without dying.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Bdog

Maybe some of the accessibility activists also "find it annoying" that the Open-Campaign are suddenly advocates of accessibility issues now that it suits the Open cause. Of course the irony is that the Exchange District is one of the most in-accessible areas of the city for those with mobility issues, particularly those in wheelchairs. "Open Portage and Main because we care about those in wheelchairs having to travel 4 football fields to cross the street!.... When they do cross the street though, too bad if they can't access the heritage buildings on the other side of the street in the Exchange. A ramp would completely ruin the character."

Yeah. Whatever.
An able bodied person should never advocate for accessible design. Really?

How dare anyone say accessibility at the central intersection of the city where 15,000 people spend every day is a problem when some of the century old buildings in one of the neighbouring areas are also inaccessible.... really?

Not sure if you noticed but the civic plebiscite is not about ramps on warehouse buildings. Lack of accessibility in the Exchange does not justify inaccessible design at Portage and Main or make it any less valid to discuss as an issue. Air Canada Park feels unsafe. Does that mean the issue of safety can’t be talked about at Portage and Main?

There are a number of professional accessibility advocates and disabled people who have come forward to be part of the ‘open’ campaign. There were protests 40 years ago about it. The issue has always been there and it was always a critical reason to remove the barriers. The only thing that’s changed is now we are voting on it, so we need to have a public dialogue about the issues.

[Geebrr]

Originally Posted by Wpg_Guy

When infrastructure that is well designed is created people will behave. When the demographics of those able to access the intersection is broadened ie pedestrians, cyclists, motorists people will adapt and follow the rules like every other intersection in the city.

Of course.

This vision of absolute anarchy if the barriers are removed is not just silly. It is moronic, embarrassing, and offensively ignorant.

[BigG]

Global article today.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4412071/f...tage-and-main/

[Geebrr]

"I am totally in favour of keeping Portage and Main closed. Please tell me if there are any of the dozens of other places where pedestrians are not allowed to cross that you favour opening."

— Fred Morris (@FredMorrisWpg) August 27, 2018


This is the absurd logic this "debate" is forced to listen to. It is infuriating.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Yeah. Whatever.
An able bodied person should never advocate for accessible design. Really?

How dare anyone say accessibility at the central intersection of the city where 15,000 people spend every day is a problem when some of the century old buildings in one of the neighbouring areas are also inaccessible.... really?

Not sure if you noticed but the civic plebiscite is not about ramps on warehouse buildings. Lack of accessibility in the Exchange does not justify inaccessible design at Portage and Main or make it any less valid to discuss as an issue. Air Canada Park feels unsafe. Does that mean the issue of safety can’t be talked about at Portage and Main?

There are a number of professional accessibility advocates and disabled people who have come forward to be part of the ‘open’ campaign. There were protests 40 years ago about it. The issue has always been there and it was always a critical reason to remove the barriers. The only thing that’s changed is now we are voting on it, so we need to have a public dialogue about the issues.

I think you're missing my point completely Vike. Of COURSE able bodied people should advocate for accessible design, and many of us DO. Some accessibility advocates are frustrated because they feel that Portage and Main is a relatively lower priority in terms of accessibility issues, especially in that exact vicinity. They haven't been able to enjoy restaurants within 2 blocks of Portage and Main, or even accept certain jobs in the Exchange because of the inaccessibility issues. The Open side is passionate that it takes those with mobility issues 9 minutes to cross from 201 Portage to BMO? Well, we hope to see the same passion for those who can't enter a building in 90 minutes, because there are no lifts, elevators, or ramps.

Some feel, rightly or wrongly, that the Open Campaign has co-opted accessibility for those with mobility issues as their central theme, but that it's disingenuous. Hopefully this sudden outpouring of support for "accessibility" will continue after the referendum, and we'll continue to see that passion so that people in wheelchairs can actually enjoy EVERY building in the Exchange once they cross the street!

[Ando]

Actually, the logical position for them, given all of the clear accessibility issues that exist going underground, would be to advocate for PanM to be open with good accessibility for people with disabilities. It doesn't make sense to hold your breath and say, you're not paying enough attention to my other issues, therefore I am going to without support for this project.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Bdog

I think you're missing my point completely Vike. Of COURSE able bodied people should advocate for accessible design, and many of us DO. Some accessibility advocates are frustrated because they feel that Portage and Main is a relatively lower priority in terms of accessibility issues, especially in that exact vicinity. They haven't been able to enjoy restaurants within 2 blocks of Portage and Main, or even accept certain jobs in the Exchange because of the inaccessibility issues. The Open side is passionate that it takes those with mobility issues 9 minutes to cross from 201 Portage to BMO? Well, we hope to see the same passion for those who can't enter a building in 90 minutes, because there are no lifts, elevators, or ramps.

Some feel, rightly or wrongly, that the Open Campaign has co-opted accessibility for those with mobility issues as their central theme, but that it's disingenuous. Hopefully this sudden outpouring of support for "accessibility" will continue after the referendum, and we'll continue to see that passion so that people in wheelchairs can actually enjoy EVERY building in the Exchange once they cross the street!

Considering that the number one heritage building in the province successfully integrated a wheelchair ramp several years ago, it's clear that it can be done anywhere. There is no real dispute here... you are engaging in an argument all by yourself.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by esquire

Considering that the number one heritage building in the province successfully integrated a wheelchair ramp several years ago, it's clear that it can be done anywhere. There is no real dispute here... you are engaging in an argument all by yourself.

Cool. One poster was incredulous that a well-known accessibility group wasn't throwing their full support behind the Open cause. I tried to explain why that might be the case, but clearly I didn't do a good job at that.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Bdog

Cool. One poster was incredulous that a well-known accessibility group wasn't throwing their full support behind the Open cause. I tried to explain why that might be the case, but clearly I didn't do a good job at that.

I obviously don't know the details as I wasn't part of the discussion, but it sounds like from what vike was saying that BFM refused to simply take a position on the matter. Which is a bit odd when the position would be consistent with what appear to be the group's goals.

[DowntownBooster]

Not sure if this has come up yet in the opening P&M discussion but has it been clarified whether people would still be able to access the underground walkway even if the intersection is opened up to foot traffic? I was thinking of occasions of inclement weather, etc. when it might be more convenient to not cross at street level. I am in favor of reopening the intersection but just wondered if that meant sealing off the stairwell access (primarily the one by 201 Portage and the other one by the Bank of Montreal since the Scotiabank and Richardson Plaza stairwells wouldn't be directly impacted by the reopening of P&M).

[Wpg_Guy]

Originally Posted by DowntownBooster

Not sure if this has come up yet in the opening P&M discussion but has it been clarified whether people would still be able to access the underground walkway even if the intersection is opened up to foot traffic? I was thinking of occasions of inclement weather, etc. when it might be more convenient to not cross at street level. I am in favor of reopening the intersection but just wondered if that meant sealing off the stairwell access (primarily the one by 201 Portage and the other one by the Bank of Montreal since the Scotiabank and Richardson Plaza stairwells wouldn't be directly impacted by the reopening of P&M).

Access would remain part of the cost would go towards redesigning the access points making them more visible accessible and safe.