Do places with much socio-economic segregation but little racial segregation exist?

[muppet]

London has seen massive Caribbean flight this last decade as the once impoverished Inner City ring sells on for massive profits, the numbers going from 700,000 to 250,000. Nowadays the 'Caribbean' population (mostly British born) live in the leafier suburbs and the SE England region. Despite the large size of the population they're actually an endangered community due to the majority of them intermarrying.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by muppet

London has seen massive Caribbean flight this last decade as the once impoverished Inner City ring sells on for massive profits, the numbers going from 700,000 to 250,000. Nowadays the 'Caribbean' population (mostly British born) live in the leafier suburbs and the SE England region. Despite the large size of the population they're actually an endangered community due to the majority of them intermarrying.

And are their offspring seen as "just English folks" or do they develop a Black British identity?

[Docere]

The Caribbean population of London was 291,000 in 1991, 345,000 in 2011.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_London

It's perhaps tapered off since then - but I'd be surprised if the Caribbean population of London is 1/3 of what it it was 30 years ago.

[Docere]

From Richard Alba and Nancy Foner, Strangers No More. Index of Dissimilarity for immigrant groups in European cities collected from various sources (approximate):

60

Bangladeshis London (2001)

50

Turks Marseille (1999)

40

Pakistanis London (2001)
Sub-Saharan Africans Marseille (2001)
Turks Rotterdam (2004)
Indians London (2001)
Turks Amsterdam (2004)
Moroccans Rotterdam (2004)
Moroccans Amsterdam (2004)
Caribbeans London (2001)
Algerians Marseille (1999)

30

Turks Cologne (1994)
Sub-Saharan Africans Paris (1999)
Algerians Paris (1999)
Surinamese Amsterdam (2004)
Antilleans Amsterdam (2004)
Antilleans Rotterdam (2004)
Turks Frankfurt (1994)

[Docere]

The intersection of race and class in Toronto (city proper data). Of the entire population 48% reside in "low income" census tracts (below 80% of the average income in the metro area), 29% in middle income CTs (80-120%) and 23% in high income CTs (120%+)


White

Low income CTs 32%
Middle income CTs 35%
High income CTs 32%

South Asian

Low income CTs 76%
Middle income CTs 16%
High income CTs 7%

Chinese

Low income CTs 59%
Middle income CTs 25%
High income CTs 15%

Black

Low income CTs 76%
Middle income CTs 17%
High income CTs 7%


https://www.ryerson.ca/content/dam/r...w_Appendix.pdf

[Crawford]

Wow, Canadian South Asians really are totally different from U.S. South Asians. Same demographic distribution as black population.

And I'm a little surprised at the Chinese numbers. Maybe most of the blingy, big-spending Chinese you see in Toronto live in the burbs, or aren't permanent residents (wealthy HK/mainland college students or something?). If you visit a high-spending venue like Holt Renfrew or a club with bottle service, it seems very Chinese.

[Docere]

Yeah, South Asians in the city of Toronto are mostly working class Sri Lankans, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Guyanese.

As for Chinese, the largest concentration by far is in north Scarborough which is not at all affluent. More well-to-do Chinese live in Willowdale and York Mills.

[Docere]

Ethnic distribution of the high income tracts:

White 73%
Chinese 8%
South Asian 3%
Black 2.8%

The affluent neighborhoods in Toronto are very white, with Chinese being the largest visible minority group.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Wow, Canadian South Asians really are totally different from U.S. South Asians. Same demographic distribution as black population.

And I'm a little surprised at the Chinese numbers. Maybe most of the blingy, big-spending Chinese you see in Toronto live in the burbs, or aren't permanent residents (wealthy HK/mainland college students or something?). If you visit a high-spending venue like Holt Renfrew or a club with bottle service, it seems very Chinese.

This is true it seems about half the shoppers in the mink mile are Chinese women.

[misher]

Originally Posted by urbanadvocate

With the exception of Oakland and Portland which are clearly not racially integrated, west coast cities do appear more integrated to me on a "perception" level.

Granted there are clearly African American neighborhoods in LA and latino neighborhoods in SD but as a whole are pretty integrated. I wonder how much of this is perception is skewed by a higher proportion of wealthy Asians.

I know many years ago, Sacramento, for example, was titled the most racially integrated US city by a Harvard study but I cannot recall how this was measured or determined.

Funnily enough in Canada in Vancouver BC a higher percentage of Asians tends to mean an area is poorer. You have Richmond which is around 70% Asian with cheaper homes, Vancouver which has around 50% and West Vancouver which has around 30% and prices go up as the % of Asians go down.

I know there's this perception of wealthy Asians but I suspect this has more to do with a combination of Sinophobia and surprise at a small percentage of a minority having money. Plus of course the fact that Asians on average score the highest on the SATs so second generation Asians tend to do well.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Wow, Canadian South Asians really are totally different from U.S. South Asians. Same demographic distribution as black population.

And I'm a little surprised at the Chinese numbers. Maybe most of the blingy, big-spending Chinese you see in Toronto live in the burbs, or aren't permanent residents (wealthy HK/mainland college students or something?). If you visit a high-spending venue like Holt Renfrew or a club with bottle service, it seems very Chinese.

Canada's equivalent of African-Americans is First Nations. Same embarrassing history of actions we regret, over-representation in the criminal justice system, higher drug+std rates, etc. We have policies targeting this minority same as the US does for African-Americans.

You will see high numbers of foreign students in Canada's 3 big international student cities so Chinese numbers make sense. Youth of any ethnicity tend to be huge shoppers because they can blow their monthly allowance unlike us adults who got to work and save. Foreign youth just tend to get a bigger allowance and be stupider with it.

[Docere]

Portland and Oakland are VERY different cities. Portland is very white and the tiny Black population isn't very segregated at all.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by misher

Funnily enough in Canada in Vancouver BC a higher percentage of Asians tends to mean an area is poorer. You have Richmond which is around 70% Asian with cheaper homes, Vancouver which has around 50% and West Vancouver which has around 30% and prices go up as the % of Asians go down.

Van has a huge Asian population including a sizeable upper class, but most Asian Vancouverites are not part of the "global rich" by any means.

The wealthy Chinese live on the West Side, and the West Side is increasingly Chinese, but yeah Richmond - the most Chinese area - is not wealthy.

Meanwhile the South Asian (nearly all Sikh) and Filipino populations are very working class - very few on the West Side or North Shore.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Docere

And are their offspring seen as "just English folks" or do they develop a Black British identity?

IIRC there are now more biracial people of partial Caribbean ancestry than full-blooded Anglo-Caribbean folks in the UK. Most black people in the UK today are more recent African immigrants or their children.

Basically, since the UK is a country with relatively little anti-black bias, visibly black people tend to just intermarry with the local population within 2-3 generations and vanish - absent additional immigration. Kind of like what has happened in the U.S. with non-observant Jews, or what seems to be happening with Asian Americans and Hispanics.

[Docere]

There's definitely a "color line" for Blacks, including those of immigrant origin, in the US, given their longer history, large numbers and ugly history of racial segregation. It's weaker in the Western states though where the Black population is proportionately smaller.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Docere

There's definitely a "color line" for Blacks, including those of immigrant origin, in the US, given their longer history, large numbers and ugly history of racial segregation. It's weaker in the Western states though where the Black population is proportionately smaller.

This is true. It's important to note however that it kinda goes both ways. That is to say, in the modern era the relatively low (though rising) rates of interracial black-white intermarriage in the U.S. are both due to relative lack of interest among white people and black people.

Ultimately minority groups that tend to survive for many generations as distinct populations are ones which have some degree of shunning regarding mixing - at least when it comes to marriage - with outsiders. An example of this in the U.S. is how, as I noted, secular Jews are dying off rapidly (with an over 50% out-marriage rate) but observant Jews are going strong. Or how the Old Order Amish have not only survived, but have a booming population, where related but less extreme groups of German speakers from "Pennsylvania Dutch Country" completely assimilated into mainstream American culture about a century ago.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Kind of like what has happened in the U.S. with non-observant Jews, or what seems to be happening with Asian Americans and Hispanics.

Yes, and this is why the fears about "whites" becoming a "minority" in the US are misplaced. The majority of "mixed" offspring being born are NHWs and Hispanics. Most of these children are functionally white. But the way the Census - or more accurately the way US society interprets this data - calculates things anyone with Hispanic ancestry as simply "Hispanic."

It's only those who are partially Black that don't join the white mainstream.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...78023118796932

[Docere]

I'm skeptical of claims that intermarriage between Blacks of Caribbean descent and whites means Britain is somehow "post-racial" or that Blacks are completely assimilating into whiteness there.

In Canada at least - which has a pretty much identical Black population share as the UK - biracial Black and Caribbean Canadians continue to identify as Black - in my anectodal experience.

On the social indicators I've seen, (mostly Caribbean) mixed race Brits look a lot like the (unmixed) Black Caribbean community, and Black Britons continue to have high rates of poverty, incarceration etc.

[RST500]

Originally Posted by Docere

Ethnic distribution of the high income tracts:

White 73%
Chinese 8%
South Asian 3%
Black 2.8%

The affluent neighborhoods in Toronto are very white, with Chinese being the largest visible minority group.

Are there statistics for the ethnic break down for high income tracks in major American cities?

[Docere]

Probably, but this was done by a professor at the University of Toronto who researches inequality in Canadian cities.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by misher

Plus of course the fact that Asians on average score the highest on the SATs so second generation Asians tend to do well.

Are the SATs required for admission to Canadian universities now?

Canada's equivalent of African-Americans is First Nations. Same embarrassing history of actions we regret, over-representation in the criminal justice system, higher drug+std rates, etc. We have policies targeting this minority same as the US does for African-Americans.

I wouldn't say that the small FN population in Toronto is "equivalent" to the Black population in NY or LA.