De-Amalgamation of Winnipeg

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

So it seems obvious now that Fort Rouge is the old east-west lots oriented to the Red River while in River Heights the lots are north-south and oriented to the Assiniboine.

Good rule of thumb. How reliable is it, though? Can I say that Grosvenor and Stafford is still Fort Rouge?

[wardlow]

Originally Posted by esquire

Good rule of thumb. How reliable is it, though? Can I say that Grosvenor and Stafford is still Fort Rouge?

I would, though it would also be considered the edge of Crescentwood.

Similar to how Luxton/Scotia Heights is part of the North End while also being it's own sub-area.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by esquire

Good rule of thumb. How reliable is it, though? Can I say that Grosvenor and Stafford is still Fort Rouge?

You really got me thinking (and daydreaming).

According to the inset on this map, Crescentwood looks to be part of one large river lot, while there were two lots of St Boniface West to the north that extended only to the bend in the Assiniboine (the left bank of this bend being Armstrong's Point).

https://hallnjean2.files.wordpress.c...f-wpg-1870.png

On a plan of Crescentwood dating to 1917 (check out the North East Winnipeg Historical Society's online maps) the south boundary is the line which is today the lane between Yale and Grosvenor and running west to Cambridge. So Grosvenor itself is not in Crescentwood. Interestingly, Oxford St. and the east side of Waverley north of Kingsway and the river properties on Wellington Cres. as far west as Elm Street are shown as being part of Crescentwood as they were also purchased by the developer C.H. Enderton. So yes, Grosvenor and Stafford is in Fort Rouge.

Wellington Crescent and Pembina Highway were old trails. The Osborne Bridge opened in 1882 so perhaps traffic from the south and southwest crossed there and prior to that nearer to the Forks. Winnipeg's first waterworks (privately owned and operated) were located near the foot of Maryland. Until 1913 there were two roadways named Pembina. Pembina Street which ran from Spadina south to the river. This was renamed Osborne Street from 1913, before 1913 Osborne ran south from Broadway over the bridge and ended looking dead on to the Bank of Montreal at Spadina (now Stradbrook). Pembina St started from Spadina at an offset intersection which would be where the current fire hall now stands. Also there was Pembina Road, today's Pembina Hwy. In the Henderson's Directories from the mid 1890s there is mention of Pembina Street but not Pembina Road. Did the opening of the Northern Pacific make access to Pembina Road north of Jubilee difficult due to having to cross two sets of tracks? Pembina St. School was on the west side south of Corydon but before the Northern Pacific (later Canadian Northern which was absorbed into the CNR) tracks. South of the tracks there were just two residences and St. Mary's Cemetery, even though by this time River and Elm Parks had opened and River Park was served by Park Line streetcars at least during the summer season.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Right, just like Crestview, Woodhaven, Silver Heights, Deer Lodge, etc. are neighbourhoods within St. James-Assiniboia.

When I was involved in establishing Glenelm as a specific neighbourhood within the greater community of Elmwood, the city referred to neighbourhoods above as "area characterization names".

[bomberjet]

Historically boundaries have been moved around. Does it really matter if River Heights ends at one street or two streets over?

[wardlow]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Historically boundaries have been moved around. Does it really matter if River Heights ends at one street or two streets over?

Not really, but I and a few others here think it's really interesting.

And interesting how some distinct sub-areas are the principle answer to the question, where in the city do you live?, rather than the overall area name. For example, people in North Point Douglas would think of themselves as residents of that area far more quickly than they would think of themselves as part of the North End. Meanwhile, a resident of William Whyte might use the name, but would consider themselves a North Ender first and foremost.

In Fort Rouge, historical distinct sub-areas are Crescentwood and Riverview. Maybe there were other names used over time that are now lost. For my family who first moved to the area in the 1920s, it was always just "Fort Rouge," including the area that is now called Osborne Village.

[bomberjet]

Yup, I would agree. I also find it interesting. Just seemed there was a tone of "no, THIS is the boundary." Maybe I misinterpreted.

[Gm0ney]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

You really got me thinking (and daydreaming).

According to the inset on this map, Crescentwood looks to be part of one large river lot, while there were two lots of St Boniface West to the north that extended only to the bend in the Assiniboine (the left bank of this bend being Armstrong's Point).

https://hallnjean2.files.wordpress.c...f-wpg-1870.png

On a plan of Crescentwood dating to 1917 (check out the North East Winnipeg Historical Society's online maps) the south boundary is the line which is today the lane between Yale and Grosvenor and running west to Cambridge. So Grosvenor itself is not in Crescentwood. Interestingly, Oxford St. and the east side of Waverley north of Kingsway and the river properties on Wellington Cres. as far west as Elm Street are shown as being part of Crescentwood as they were also purchased by the developer C.H. Enderton. So yes, Grosvenor and Stafford is in Fort Rouge.

Wellington Crescent and Pembina Highway were old trails. The Osborne Bridge opened in 1882 so perhaps traffic from the south and southwest crossed there and prior to that nearer to the Forks. Winnipeg's first waterworks (privately owned and operated) were located near the foot of Maryland. Until 1913 there were two roadways named Pembina. Pembina Street which ran from Spadina south to the river. This was renamed Osborne Street from 1913, before 1913 Osborne ran south from Broadway over the bridge and ended looking dead on to the Bank of Montreal at Spadina (now Stradbrook). Pembina St started from Spadina at an offset intersection which would be where the current fire hall now stands. Also there was Pembina Road, today's Pembina Hwy. In the Henderson's Directories from the mid 1890s there is mention of Pembina Street but not Pembina Road. Did the opening of the Northern Pacific make access to Pembina Road north of Jubilee difficult due to having to cross two sets of tracks? Pembina St. School was on the west side south of Corydon but before the Northern Pacific (later Canadian Northern which was absorbed into the CNR) tracks. South of the tracks there were just two residences and St. Mary's Cemetery, even though by this time River and Elm Parks had opened and River Park was served by Park Line streetcars at least during the summer season.

There's a hint in the names of Cambridge and Oxford Streets that they were part of Crescentwood, along with Harvard and Yale Avenues.

That's interesting on the map where you can see right where the lots switched orientation.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Halifax is similarly massive. Annexation would make sense for Winnipeg, it's hard to come up with a cohesive plan when you have a dozen or more outlying municipalities that are a de facto part of Winnipeg, all doing their own thing.

Vancouver manages fine in this sense.

Really, I'm surprised at the attention all the exurban municipalities around Winnipeg get in these planning discussions. Realistically, the combined populations and growth rates of Headingley, the St. Pauls, Springfield, Tache, etc. are comparatively tiny, and yet their development gets a lot of attention within Winnipeg planning circles. I never really got it. These places largely feel inconsequential to me.

[esquire]

^ I take your point, I'm not saying that the issue has reached critical stages because that simply isn't the case. But as those surrounding RMs and towns move from an agricultural to a semi-urban character the pressure to plan in a coordinated way increases.

There have been some moves in that direction, but so far they've been fairly minimal.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I take your point, I'm not saying that the issue has reached critical stages because that simply isn't the case. But as those surrounding RMs and towns move from an agricultural to a semi-urban character the pressure to plan in a coordinated way increases.

There have been some moves in that direction, but so far they've been fairly minimal.

Absolutely, it's always in the best interest to coordinate planning, service provision, and the like. And growth beyond the borders of Winnipeg, especially when most of that land is undeveloped right now, can be an issue that needs to be considered.

[balletomane]

Population history for more specific areas within the former city of Winnipeg and Old St. Boniface

Fort Rouge (bounded by Assiniboine River, Red River, Jubilee/Parker/Hurst, Waverley)
1941: 32,389
1951: 38,059
1956: 43,573
1961: 47,212
1966: 49,224
1971: 49,874
1976: 45,470
1981: 40,964
1986: 41,027
1991: 39,393
1996: 39,311
2001: 39,023
2006: 39,310
2011: 38,884
2016: 39,720

Sub-areas of Fort Rouge:

Osborne Village (bounded by Assiniboine River, Red River, Mulvey, Corydon, Cockburn)
1941: 8,422
1951: 8,500
1956: 9,224
1961: 10,128
1966: 10,745
1971: 12,193
1976: 11,233
1981: 10,636
1986: 11,038
1991: 10,740
1996: 11,039
2001: 10,952
2006: 11,034
2011: 11,029
2016: 11,332

River Heights (bounded by Assiniboine River, Waverley, Wilkes, Morpeth/Edgeland)
1941: 7,660
1951: 12,067
1956: 19,575
1961: 23,776
1966: 24,338
1971: 23,065
1976: 22,900
1981: 22,464
1986: 22,096
1991: 21,221
1996: 20,908
2001: 20,979
2006: 20,587
2011: 20,275
2016: 20,941

Downtown (bounded by CPR mainline, Red River, Assinboine River, Route 62)
1941: 27,543
1951: 23,465
1956: 20,693
1961: 17,429
1966: 15,511
1971: 14,417
1976: 13,453
1981: 12,934
1986: 14,187
1991: 16,054
1996: 15,521
2001: 15,954
2006: 15,960
2011: 16,673
2016: 17,826

Sub-areas of Downtown:

South Portage (bounded by Portage Ave/Portage Ave East, Red River, Assiniboine River, Route 62)
1941: 10,110
1951: 8,659
1956: 7,376
1961: 6,023
1966: 5,276
1971: 5,596
1976: 5,905
1981: 5,589
1986: 5,963
1991: 7,288
1996: 7,310
2001: 7,368
2006: 7,127
2011: 7,034
2016: 7,594

Central Park (bounded by Notre Dame, Portage, Route 62)
1941: 6,327
1951: 5,402
1956: 4,525
1961: 3,925
1966: 3,829
1971: 3,781
1976: 3,422
1981: 3,670
1986: 4,129
1991: 4,446
1996: 4,565
2001: 4,531
2006: 4,956
2011: 5,231
2016: 5,332

East Exchange-South Point Douglas (bounded by CPR mainline, Red River, Portage Avenue East, Main)
1941: 3,210
1951: 2,738
1956: 2,620
1961: 1,554
1966: 1,355
1971: 828
1976: 683
1981: 541
1986: 570
1991: 616
1996: 605
2001: 752
2006: 762
2011: 1,163
2016: 1,107

West Exchange-Centennial (bounded by CPR mainline, Main, Notre Dame, Isabel)
1941: 7,896
1951: 6,666
1956: 6,172
1961: 5,927
1966: 5,051
1971: 4,212
1976: 3,443
1981: 3,134
1986: 3,525
1991: 3,704
1996: 3,041
2001: 3,303
2006: 3,115
2011: 3,245
2016: 3,793

West Broadway-Armstrong Point (bounded by Portage, Route 62, Assiniboine River, Sherbrook)
1941: 10,286
1951: 9,564
1956: 9,245
1961: 8,664
1966: 8,012
1971: 7,468
1976: 5,975
1981: 5,889
1986: 6,633
1991: 5,990
1996: 5,771
2001: 6,034
2006: 6,138
2011: 6,125
2016: 6,056

Wolseley (bounded by Portage, Sherbook, Assiniboine River, St. James)
1941: 14,416
1951: 14,293
1956: 14,898
1961: 14,836
1966: 14,199
1971: 12,920
1976: 11,034
1981: 9,292
1986: 9,363
1991: 8,803
1996: 8,780
2001: 8,673
2006: 8,601
2011: 8,298
2016: 8,735

West End (bounded by Notre Dame, Route 62, Portage, St. James)
1941: 42,031
1951: 42,303
1956: 44,481
1961: 44,363
1966: 42,629
1971: 39,967
1976: 35,997
1981: 33,778
1986: 34,535
1991: 33,139
1996: 31,918
2001: 31,304
2006: 31,494
2011: 32,054
2016: 32,994

Sub-areas of the West End:

Old West End (bounded by Notre Dame, Route 62, Portage, Ingersoll)
1941: 31,708
1951: 28,471
1956: 29,354
1961: 28,945
1966: 27,607
1971: 25,938
1976: 23,324
1981: 22,171
1986: 23,078
1991: 21,743
1996: 20,318
2001: 19,742
2006: 20,170
2011: 20,283
2016: 20,968

West Alexander-Weston (bounded by the CPR mainline, Isabel, Notre Dame, Keewatin)
1941: 16,730
1951: 17,415
1956: 18,022
1961: 19,431
1966: 17,658
1971: 15,910
1976: 13,467
1981: 11,183
1986: 11,160
1991: 10,722
1996: 10,118
2001: 10,044
2006: 10,107
2011: 10,044
2016: 10,883

North End (bounded by Wyatt/Carruthers/Smithfield, Red River, CPR mainline, Keewatin)
1941: 59,170
1951: 64,199
1956: 68,190
1961: 70,902
1966: 65,825
1971: 63,107
1976: 54,599
1981: 48,120
1986: 47,753
1991: 45,921
1996: 44,363
2001: 43,427
2006: 44,156
2011: 46,766
2016: 48,320

Sub-areas of the North End:

Old North End (bounded by Church, Red River, CPR mainline, McPhillips)
1941: 45,240
1951: 45,111
1956: 45,218
1961: 44,647
1966: 38,962
1971: 36,904
1976: 31,090
1981: 26,718
1986: 27,043
1991: 23,016
1996: 24,846
2001: 23,811
2006: 24,649
2011: 26,169
2016: 26,449

Elmwood (bounded by Harbison/Nottingham, Panet, Mission, Red River)
1941: 11,735
1951: 14,345
1956: 16,434
1961: 18,806
1966: 19,033
1971: 18,819
1976: 17,304
1981: 15,378
1986: 15,445
1991: 15,141
1996: 14,733
2001: 14,363
2006: 14,358
2011: 14,806
2016: 14,713

Old St. Boniface (bounded by the Red River, Archibald, Lachance/Carriere)
1941: 16,912
1951: 24,823
1956: 26,659
1961: 26,883
1966: 26,131
1971: 24,636
1976: 21,859
1981: 19,087
1986: 18,491
1991: 17,622
1996: 17,438
2001: 17,233
2006: 17,051
2011: 17,203
2016: 17,605

[balletomane]

And all census tracts within the former city and Old St. Boniface by percent change from their peak population
In brackets is the 2011 to 2016 percent change

36.00 (North Point Douglas, south part) -68.1% (-7.6%)
24.00 (East Exchange - South Point Douglas) -65.5% (-4.8%)
27.00 (HSC area) -63.5% (+1.1%)
26.00 (Centennial West) -62.4% (+12.1%)
13.00 (South Portage-Forks) -62.4% (+11.2%)
43.00 (William Whyte, south central) -58.5% (-4.7%)
34.00 (Lord Selkirk Park) -57.4% (+4.6%)
35.00 (North Point Douglas, north part) -57.3% (-2.2%)
33.00 (HSC north) -55.0% (+2.2%)
25.00 (West Exchange-Centennial) -52.0% (+16.9%)
22.00 (Spence) -48.4% (+4.0%)
16.00 (Wolseley, east part) -46.0% (+12.5%)
113.00 (Old St. Boniface, southeast) -44.4% (+3.4%)
17.00 (Wolseley, central part) -43.8% (+3.1%)
15.00 (West Broadway-Armstrong Point) -41.1% (-1.1%)
114.00 (Norwood, east) -40.2% (+1.4%)
40.00 (Glenelm) -39.7% (-4.3%)
3.00 (Earl Grey) -37.0% (+1.4%)
42.00 (William Whyte, east) -36.0% (0.0%)
45.00 (William Whyte, south central) -35.7% (+2.1%)
21.00 (St. Matthews) -34.6% (+4.1%)
115.00 (Norwood, west) -33.8% (+2.5%)
18.00 (Wolseley, west part) -33.7% (+1.9%)
41.00 (Luxton) -33.1% (-2.6%)
117.00 (North St. Boniface) -32.1% (-1.2%)
20.00 (Minto) -31.7% (+1.9%)
2.00 (Lord Roberts) -31.5% (+1.1%)
10.00 (Crescentwood) -31.0% (+1.5%)
48.00 (Burrows Central) -29.7% (+4.8%)
7.00 (River Heights, northwest) -29.1% (+4.5%)
116.00 (Central St. Boniface) -28.3% (+4.3%)
39.00 (Chalmers, west) -28.1% (-1.6%)
49.00 (Robertson) -27.9% (+7.1%)
37.00 (Elmwood, east) -27.3% (+4.5%)
1.00 (Riverview) -27.1% (-0.9%)
47.0 (St. John's, west) -26.0% (+4.1%)
44.0 (Dufferin) -25.6% (+3.4%)
4.01 (Grant Park, north) -25.5% (+2.6%)
8.00 (Wellington Crescent, central) -25.4% (+0.6%)
19.00 (Polo Park) -25.0% (+1.9%)
32.00 (Weston) -24.8% (+10.0%)
31.00 (Sargent Park, west) -23.7% (+5.7%)
28.00/29.00 (Daniel McIntyre) -23.6% (+2.7%)
9.00 (River Heights, central) -22.8% (+0.2%)
46.00 (St. John's, east) -21.6% (-0.8%)
5.00 (River Heights, southeast) -19.6% (+5.3%)
23.00 (Central Park) -15.7% (+1.9%)
12.00 (Osborne Village, east) -14.1% (+1.9%)
30.00 (Sargent Park, east) -13.6% (+0.5%)
38.00 (Chalmers, east) -11.3% (-1.7%)
6.00 (River Heights, southwest) -11.1% (+3.7%)
50.01/50.02 (Inkster) -9.7% (+14.6%)
4.02 (Grant Park, south) -8.2% (+7.5%)
11.00 (Osborne Village, west) -4.0% (+3.4%)
14.00 (Broadway-Assiniboine n/a (+6.9%)