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  #121  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2007, 2:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam View Post
Just to reiterate what I said before, this is a small piece of land they're building all this on, they were quite limited in how they could design with all the residential and office being put in. For 12 acres, they go a pretty damn good job accomplishing something. Since you seem to categorize this design as 90's well, late 90's, could you provide some examples of developments built in the 90's with this type of layout.
Mizner Park in Boca Raton (actually superior to this SA thing in terms of density and mix of uses, but similar inwards-focusing layout).

Next step up towards urban would be Triangle Park here in Austin. Appears to address the street (doesn't, really, but at least appears to).

After that would be true VMU a la Guadalupe 31.
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  #122  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2007, 7:25 PM
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Here's the Guadalupe 31 example:



(horked from Brewster McCracken's VMU page)

Residential + retail; parking inside and behind, but businesses face the public street (where the transit and the pedestrians are), not the interior private 'parking drive'.

Here's a story from the Chronicle pre-construction. Ironically, the Gelato's they complain about went out of business after six months (I loved being able to walk there and have missed it ever since) while the businesses in the VMU portion have done seemingly OK.
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  #123  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2007, 7:29 PM
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This kind of VMU is exactly what should become the vernacular design of mid and small sized commercial infill, in both Austin and SA.
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  #124  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2007, 7:30 PM
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Yeah, M1EK, that's great.

But before you go off, study the road situation in that part of town. It isn't exactly pedestrian friendly, and throwing people from the inside of the development onto a Basse-fronting business isn't exactly going to make business boom, even with another big-name development across the way.
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  #125  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2007, 7:52 PM
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Yeah, M1EK, that's great.

But before you go off, study the road situation in that part of town. It isn't exactly pedestrian friendly, and throwing people from the inside of the development onto a Basse-fronting business isn't exactly going to make business boom, even with another big-name development across the way.
If I remember the days of the first Quarry phase, Basse Road had an unusual configuration where you couldn't access one side or the other from 281. I remember having to go in circles around some fields or a park or something to get to there. (I remember back circa 2001 thinking the Quarry was the hottest thing! It's still not bad, but I was momentarily distracted by the cool smokestack into thinking it was actually urban.)
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  #126  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2007, 7:55 PM
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I remember trying to use the back-side bus stop behind the Quarry, one time.

That was a major mistake. I really and very truly was nearly run over several times.

It's all great and dandy that there are other places that do it "better", but they usually aren't 6 miles from the center of town, and aren't on a spoke road, and aren't socked in by poor infrastructure, and aren't boxed in by high-money anti-pedestrian golf clubs.
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  #127  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2007, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M1EK View Post
Here's the Guadalupe 31 example:



(horked from Brewster McCracken's VMU page)

Residential + retail; parking inside and behind, but businesses face the public street (where the transit and the pedestrians are), not the interior private 'parking drive'.

Here's a story from the Chronicle pre-construction. Ironically, the Gelato's they complain about went out of business after six months (I loved being able to walk there and have missed it ever since) while the businesses in the VMU portion have done seemingly OK.
That wouldn't work for the Quarry Village, Basse is a high traffic artery with cars zipping by at 40 mph. Maybe you don't understand the Quarry area too well. Quarry Village is designed very very well.
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  #128  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2007, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam View Post
That wouldn't work for the Quarry Village, Basse is a high traffic artery with cars zipping by at 40 mph. Maybe you don't understand the Quarry area too well. Quarry Village is designed very very well.
That doesn't mean that pedestrian access couldn't be accommodated for in a better fashion. Under what criteria is it designed very well?
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  #129  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2007, 12:46 AM
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That doesn't mean that pedestrian access couldn't be accommodated for in a better fashion. Under what criteria is it designed very well?
Under the criteria that the land size is 12 acres, and it's not a nicely square shaped 12 acres as its irregular shaped, nor is it a continuously flat 12 acres, its eastern side drops into the old quarry that is now a golf course. I know it'd have been so bad ass to have some type of grid or something ultra urban and something post 21st century but it the layout doesn't allow for it. For what they had to work with, it's a really good design. If you don't agree tough luck, sorry.
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  #130  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2007, 2:34 AM
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william, don't bother trying to explain the greatness of the quarry to Arby up there. He can always find fault with San Antonio in one way or another. It doesn't matter, if it's in San Antonio it's a failure. It doesn't matter that the entire quarry development should be lauded nationally for an amazing rehab or a former industrial site.
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  #131  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2007, 5:28 AM
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Originally Posted by coddat View Post
william, don't bother trying to explain the greatness of the quarry to Arby up there. He can always find fault with San Antonio in one way or another. It doesn't matter, if it's in San Antonio it's a failure. It doesn't matter that the entire quarry development should be lauded nationally for an amazing rehab or a former industrial site.
I never said that the Quarry was bad at all... it's not as dense as it should be, but it's nicely designed and of course I'm thrilled that a brownfield site was chosen to build retail instead of a greenfield site. I just don't see how in any way, shape or form, other than it being next to an 8-lane freeway, that pedestrian access shouldn't be a priority.
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  #132  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2007, 6:17 AM
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Eilan is a self-sustainable, LEED certified development incorporating over 1.8 million square feet of multifamily, office, Retail, Hotel and entertainment features.



Quote:
Project along I-10 has a European flair

Web Posted: 11/29/2007 08:34 PM CST

Creighton A. Welch
Express-News Business Writer
http://www.mysanantonio.com/business...7.2047c15.html

A new development along the Interstate 10 corridor will help fill in the area around Loop 1604. And it's going to be a cultural amalgam with an Italian-styled design, a French-derived name and a Dutch developer and owner.

The éilan is a mixed-use project of apartments, offices and retail next to La Cantera and across Interstate 10 from The Rim shopping center. The land is in the northwest corner of I-10 and La Cantera Parkway, just north of Six Flags Fiesta Texas.

"We are trying to develop a sustainable community with very elegant surroundings," said Carmen Taveras-Cruz, president of Wereldhave USA, the company developing éilan.

The name is derived from the French word élan, meaning vigor and liveliness. It will be designed with a Mediterranean style, and an "Old World meets New World" design.

The 120-acre development, which breaks ground today, is the company's first mixed-use project in the U.S.

Wereldhave has built and owns several properties in Dallas and Austin, but these are either solely office or residential complexes. This is also its first San Antonio project.

This is the latest mixed-use project to be announced in this booming part of San Antonio. One of those projects is Cresta Bella, north of éilan along Interstate 10. That plan calls for 400 total acres with 130 acres of retail and office space, 400 single-family homes and 750 multifamily units.

On the southeast corner of Interstate 10 and Loop 1604 there is a yet-to-be-named project [The Landmark] planned on 99 acres with room for 1 million square feet of office, 300,000 square feet of retail and 1,500 multifamily units.

"We have been keeping an eye on San Antonio," Taveras-Cruz said. "The growth wasn't what we were looking for until the past two or three years."

Wereldhave bought the land in October 2005 for $18.5 million and expects to eventually invest as much as $300 million. The company picked this part of town because of continued successful development and business activity nearby.

"We like the development in La Cantera," Taveras-Cruz said. "Buying land in a quality location is critical because we are owners of the property."

The floor plans for the development still are being created, but the éilan will build about 1,400 upscale apartments.[/B]

"They are so high-end that you can't compare them to regular apartments in the area," Taveras-Cruz said.

The project also will offer two Class-A office buildings with 200,000 square feet of total space.

"There is a market today for office, but there's really not very much Class-A space available for smaller businesses," Taveras-Cruz said.

Wereldhave also plans to build a 150- to 200-room hotel and spa, as well as 30,000 square feet of boutique retail, underground parking, a nondenominational chapel, an amphitheater and a specialty grocery store. The company also plans to have an electric trolley running through the property.

"Certainly, the shift is toward a more interactive community, which is becoming even more marketable," Taveras-Cruz said.

The éilan does have residential neighbors, some of whom are concerned with all the surrounding development.

Taveras-Cruz said the company met several times with its closest residential neighbor, the Crownridge neighborhood.

"There are a lot of homeowners in the area who are not happy to see the area being developed," said Rudy Herrera, president of the Crownridge of Texas Owners Association. "However, development in the area seems to be inevitable."

He said although there is some concern, the residents aren't selling their homes and leaving.

"There's a difference between the best use of land and no use of land," said Herrera, a six-year resident. "I might rather have no use of land across my street because it's beautiful, but is that the best use?"

There will be a 75-foot easement separating the development and the neighborhood, and 25 acres will be kept as a nature preserve, according to Taveras-Cruz. Crownridge also owns an 8-acre greenbelt.

"There's some concern about what effect it's going to have on the natural habitat," Herrera said. "But it appears that they're trying to build somewhat to the natural land."

Wereldhave said it will seek Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design certification for some of the buildings in the development. These buildings would meet nationally set levels of sustainability and conservation of water, energy and materials.

Last year, Wereldhave built the first privately held platinum-certified office building in the U.S. near Dallas. Platinum is the highest level of LEED.

Wereldhave develops and finances its own properties, funding everything out of its own equity. It also does not do any pre-leasing, so the hotel and office spaces are all being built on speculation.

Next week, construction will start, first with the marketing center and then the office buildings.

Taveras-Cruz said the first building should open in spring 2009.
Additional information:


Last edited by sirkingwilliam; Nov 30, 2007 at 11:36 PM.
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  #133  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2007, 5:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arbeiter View Post
I never said that the Quarry was bad at all... it's not as dense as it should be, but it's nicely designed and of course I'm thrilled that a brownfield site was chosen to build retail instead of a greenfield site. I just don't see how in any way, shape or form, other than it being next to an 8-lane freeway, that pedestrian access shouldn't be a priority.
Because on one side you have a cliff, and on the other side you have a busy road. Unless people grew wings over night, there isn't a way pedestrians would have reign in that area.

Because of the space limitations, density is difficult to attain, especially since the infrastructure doesn't allow it.

Of course, that's been said several times, so I don't know why you're still pushing the same question
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  #134  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2007, 6:42 PM
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Alex, what do you think about Eilan? I personally don't know which I like better, The Landmark, La Joya or Eilan.
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  #135  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2007, 6:57 PM
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Eilan looks horrible. Locating on a frontage road means no chance of ever having access via anything but the private automobile (too few crossings to make transit, bike, ped remotely feasible - some cities still try to run buses on frontage roads, but service is inevitably poor compared to 2-way arterials).

Sustainable my ass.
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  #136  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2007, 7:07 PM
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Eilan looks horrible. Locating on a frontage road means no chance of ever having access via anything but the private automobile (too few crossings to make transit, bike, ped remotely feasible - some cities still try to run buses on frontage roads, but service is inevitably poor compared to 2-way arterials).

Sustainable my ass.
You're just hating for the sake of hating. You have no reason to bash this project other than it being built in the suburbs. Sustainable, yes. Just ignore the 1,400 luxury apartment units being built why don't you. This won't be a development that needs outside consumerism. Did you bash Las Colinas in Plano for building directly off a freeway and frontage road? lol

Just have a read:

Eilan
http://www.cbre.com/NR/rdonlyres/E7F...AL012907LR.pdf
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  #137  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2007, 7:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam View Post
You're just hating for the sake of hating. You have no reason to bash this project other than it being built in the suburbs. Sustainable, yes. Just ignore the 1,400 luxury apartment units being built why don't you. This won't be a development that needs outside consumerism. Did you bash Las Colinas in Plano for building directly off a freeway and frontage road? lol

Just have a read:

Eilan
http://www.cbre.com/NR/rdonlyres/E7F...AL012907LR.pdf
Yes, any major development which is mainly accessed from a frontage road has the same problems. I worked at one here in Austin - so it's not just a SA or Dallas problem.

Bad MSPaint illustration of the problem here

More here

Frontage roads may be a necessary evil to serve pre-existing development, but to then turn around and allow (as Austin reluctantly does) or even encourage (as San Antonio apparently does) major new development on them is just retarded.
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  #138  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2007, 7:42 PM
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Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam View Post
Alex, what do you think about Eilan? I personally don't know which I like better, The Landmark, La Joya or Eilan.
Eilan is actually pretty nice-- it's notched into one of the more iffy bits of terrain there, and it's got a nice bit of access to I-10.

Lifestyle centers are overdone, but if they have to be, I'd rather they be like this one.
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  #139  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2007, 7:45 PM
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Originally Posted by M1EK View Post
Yes, any major development which is mainly accessed from a frontage road has the same problems. I worked at one here in Austin - so it's not just a SA or Dallas problem.

Bad MSPaint illustration of the problem here

More here

Frontage roads may be a necessary evil to serve pre-existing development, but to then turn around and allow (as Austin reluctantly does) or even encourage (as San Antonio apparently does) major new development on them is just retarded.
Part of the problem is land-ownership difficulties-- it's VERY difficult to wrench free enough useable land within the loop, which is why this sort of thing grows like weeds in SA.

I think that if there were a strict UGB and a little more freedom to buy/sell property a bit more easily, you'd see more development on the inner roads. But, as it stands, property is hard to come by within the loop.
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  #140  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2007, 7:55 PM
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Originally Posted by M1EK View Post

Frontage roads may be a necessary evil to serve pre-existing development, but to then turn around and allow (as Austin reluctantly does) or even encourage (as San Antonio apparently does) major new development on them is just retarded.
Wait, so one reluctantly does and the other encourages. Give me a break. Also, please don't try to compare this development with anything being built off any interstate frontage roads up there. Please don't.
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