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  #41  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2019, 5:49 PM
danishh danishh is offline
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this is good news but i dont see how purchasing 2 buses for limited routes is NOT a pilot.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2019, 10:35 PM
Gat-Train Gat-Train is offline
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I agree with Jenna Sudds. If we're buying two buses, it would make more sense to buy them from different manufacturers, then compare their performance.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2019, 10:49 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by Gat-Train View Post
I agree with Jenna Sudds. If we're buying two buses, it would make more sense to buy them from different manufacturers, then compare their performance.
That's the "wasting money duplicating ongoing studies that are taking place in other cities" that OC Transpo recommended against 4 months ago.

I'm confused why they only recommended buying 2 buses if they say they want to skip the pilot, and even more confused why they recommended sole-sourcing the contract when John Manconi himself said that he wasn't a fan of sole-sourcing. Apparently it's just a lot of pressure from politicians [Jim Watson] to get electric buses ASAP.

My best interpretation is that it's a "non-pilot" "pilot" which will lead to a mass purchase of electric buses in the following years assuming nothing horrible goes wrong. Sorta like what happened with the Inveros and Hybrids back in the day.

In any case, OC Transpo was directed by the commission to carry out a full tendering process to get the best deal for electric buses at $6 million. My guess is that Nova Bus will still be the best option anyway though.
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  #44  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 1:19 AM
TransitZilla TransitZilla is offline
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Any guesses where they might try these?

I'm guessing 1 charger at St Laurent, 1 charger at Tunney's, and electric bus service on route 14 between those stations.
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  #45  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 1:36 AM
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rocketphish rocketphish is offline
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Transpo wants to buy electric buses without having a trial run

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: June 19, 2019


OC Transpo is charged up over the prospect of buying electric buses, even proposing to skip a pilot project and just start acquiring them without going through a procurement competition.

“You don’t need to pilot this. You should do it,” transportation general manager John Manconi told the transit commission on Wednesday.

Transpo senses that city council is eager to acquire electric buses, so legally sole-sourcing the purchase from an existing supplier who previously won a competitive process (Nova Bus) could be the quick way to introduce two 40-foot battery-powered transit vehicles.

It seemed a big sole-sourced purchase was on the fast-track before the transit commission pumped the brakes, agreeing with direction from Coun. Riley Brockington to pursue a competitive procurement for electric buses, rather than just handing a contract to Nova.

Coun. Catherine McKenney, who first put the electric bus issue on the political agenda this term, agreed that a competitive contract process was the best approach.

There are people who “are really champing at the bit to get this right,” she said.

Over the past seven weeks, Transpo has gone from recommending against an electric bus trial to wanting to spend millions to add the vehicles to the transit fleet.

On June 12, council unanimously supported a recommendation from Mayor Jim Watson directing staff to bring a plan to the transit commission for adding electric buses during this term of council, which ends in 2022. Watson ran for re-election last fall on a pledge to introduce electric buses to the Transpo fleet.

Transpo, which is cool to the idea of a pilot project since it can monitor the trials of other transit agencies, has found between $5 million and $6 million to buy battery-electric buses and the necessary charging infrastructure. The money is from reallocating funds in capital projects. Transpo would need political approval for the electric bus purchase, likely through a report next fall on capital projects.

The transit commission heard a diesel bus costs about $630,0000, where a comparable electric bus would be $1.2 million.

Coun. Allan Hubley, the chair of the transit commission, has called on the city to be wary of embracing a new bus technology without doing due diligence, pointing to the dismal performance of 175 hybrid electric-diesel buses that Transpo now wants to unload.

“I don’t want to take us down that road again,” Hubley said.

Hubley supports the purchase of two electric buses, but he’s concerned about the cost if it comes to expanding the electric bus fleet, since an electric bus is about twice as much as a similar diesel bus.

He also wants Transpo to look at propulsion systems other than electric batteries, such as compressed natural gas and hydrogen.

Buying two electric buses is “a responsible use of tax dollars” so Transpo can see how the vehicles perform before buying more, Hubley said.

Advocates for electric vehicles urged the commission to pursue electric buses.

Raymond Leury, the president of the Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa who addressed the commission, said the city has declared a climate emergency and transitioning to electric buses would be a big move in support of the declaration.

The electric bus project is one more responsibility for Transpo to shoulder, on top of getting ready for LRT service over the summer.

The transit commission also heard Wednesday from Para Transpo customers who have been experiencing huge wait times for booking trips. Customers are waiting as long as two hours on the phone.

Transpo wants to implement an online booking process, but it doesn’t have the resources to make it happen quickly. The agency was previously following advice from customer feedback sessions that recommended against having an online booking platform.

Coun. Rawlson King, who pressed management on the Para Transpo booking headaches, said it looks like Transpo is using LRT as the rationale for delaying a project that would help vulnerable residents.

“It feels like LRT has taken up all the space at the commission,” King said during the meeting.

After the meeting, Manconi dismissed suggestions that Transpo is solely focused on the LRT launch.

“We’re managing the service, we’re managing the transition and we’re doing everything that council has told us to do through the budget process,” Manconi said.

jwilling@postmedia.com
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...ng-a-trial-run
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  #46  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 2:06 AM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
Any guesses where they might try these?

I'm guessing 1 charger at St Laurent, 1 charger at Tunney's, and electric bus service on route 14 between those stations.
Shane posted the slide deck from the presentation on the O-Train Fans forum.

It include a slide with some candidate routes including the Route 5, 9 and 10 (post-LRT, so Hurdman <-> Lyon)
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  #47  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 6:10 AM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
That's the "wasting money duplicating ongoing studies that are taking place in other cities" that OC Transpo recommended against 4 months ago.

I'm confused why they only recommended buying 2 buses if they say they want to skip the pilot, and even more confused why they recommended sole-sourcing the contract when John Manconi himself said that he wasn't a fan of sole-sourcing. Apparently it's just a lot of pressure from politicians [Jim Watson] to get electric buses ASAP.

My best interpretation is that it's a "non-pilot" "pilot" which will lead to a mass purchase of electric buses in the following years assuming nothing horrible goes wrong. Sorta like what happened with the Inveros and Hybrids back in the day.

In any case, OC Transpo was directed by the commission to carry out a full tendering process to get the best deal for electric buses at $6 million. My guess is that Nova Bus will still be the best option anyway though.
Classic virtue signaling and a waste of money. OCTranspo is broke enough with the LRT expansion and gas tax claw back without wasting more money. Let's see how it goes in other cold cities and see what happens with gas prices as we likely cancel our carbon tax after the next election.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 11:01 AM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
Classic virtue signaling and a waste of money. OCTranspo is broke enough with the LRT expansion and gas tax claw back without wasting more money. Let's see how it goes in other cold cities and see what happens with gas prices as we likely cancel our carbon tax after the next election.
The ones OC Transpo recommended to the commission are the sames ones that have been used in Montreal for the last two years and where they've seen good results. They've been reliable, even in the winter, and have fewer parts that need maintaining (i.e. lower maintenance costs). Montreal just bought 4 more of them so I think that's a good indication of that particular model.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2019, 4:12 AM
Gat-Train Gat-Train is offline
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So $6 million for just two buses? $1.2M/bus*2 buses = $2.4M. That leaves $4.8M for what exactly? I don't think the chargers would be that expensive. For two buses, you only really need one charger— one drives while the other charges.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2019, 5:13 AM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by Gat-Train View Post
So $6 million for just two buses? $1.2M/bus*2 buses = $2.4M. That leaves $4.8M for what exactly? I don't think the chargers would be that expensive. For two buses, you only really need one charger— one drives while the other charges.
It was actually estimated at $5-6 million by Manconi. $6 million is their budget amount for the tendering process.

They also need infrastructure at the garage, among other things.

These are fast charging stations, so the bus charges up in 3-5 minutes. There's no need to keep one bus charging while the other operates, as long as they're spaced apart enough to never be needing to charge at the same time.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2019, 4:04 AM
Gat-Train Gat-Train is offline
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
It was actually estimated at $5-6 million by Manconi. $6 million is their budget amount for the tendering process.

They also need infrastructure at the garage, among other things.

These are fast charging stations, so the bus charges up in 3-5 minutes. There's no need to keep one bus charging while the other operates, as long as they're spaced apart enough to never be needing to charge at the same time.
The only infrastructure needed would be a charging station. One is sufficient, and I can't imagine they'd cost more than a few thou
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  #52  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2019, 4:18 AM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by Gat-Train View Post
The only infrastructure needed would be a charging station. One is sufficient, and I can't imagine they'd cost more than a few thou
They need a fast charging station and slow charging stations at the garage. They may also try to install them at multiple stations to service multiple routes (i.e. Hurdman and Billings).

The overhead fast charging stations currently cost $400,000-$600,000.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2019, 12:08 PM
TransitZilla TransitZilla is offline
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Originally Posted by Gat-Train View Post
The only infrastructure needed would be a charging station. One is sufficient, and I can't imagine they'd cost more than a few thou
At the meeting they specifically said not to underestimate the civil works, e.g. installing the charging stations and running power to them.

They said they would need 2-3 charging stations.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 4:32 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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The business case for battery electric buses is getting better by the day. I would bet they beat out diesels, even in our climate. But given the infrastructure involved, I wish they’d look at some kind of study leading to a long procurement plan (~10 years) to fully switch the fleet to electric. Buying a handful of buses here and there from different OEMs works for diesels. Won’t work for BEBs.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 3:38 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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Gee . . . If only they were planning to rip up a road in the near future to add bus infrastructure; they would be able to add charging stations for electric buses at the same time. If only . . .
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  #56  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 5:15 PM
Gat-Train Gat-Train is offline
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Gee . . . If only they were planning to rip up a road in the near future to add bus infrastructure; they would be able to add charging stations for electric buses at the same time. If only . . .
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  #57  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 5:41 PM
Multi-modal Multi-modal is offline
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Gee . . . If only they were planning to rip up a road in the near future to add bus infrastructure; they would be able to add charging stations for electric buses at the same time. If only . . .
We talking Baseline? That would be a great addition to that project.
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  #58  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 3:27 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Instead of spending millions on fancier and more expensive buses that are being trialled elsewhere, just as yet another sop to the cyclists who don't like to be within 20 miles of anything diesel, how about we finally start investing in things that improve the service of bus transit for the humans who rely on bus transit, and ESPECIALLY for those humans who will never see any benefit from an entirely suburban-oriented LRT plan?
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  #59  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 6:03 PM
Catenary Catenary is offline
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Instead of spending millions on fancier and more expensive buses that are being trialled elsewhere, just as yet another sop to the cyclists who don't like to be within 20 miles of anything diesel, how about we finally start investing in things that improve the service of bus transit for the humans who rely on bus transit, and ESPECIALLY for those humans who will never see any benefit from an entirely suburban-oriented LRT plan?
Yes, because it's the cyclists who are pushing for this, and everything else you claim to be wrong with transit.

Get a grip.
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  #60  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 8:41 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
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I for one cannot wait for electric buses. My apartment in the downtown is constantly rattled by those f*cking turbo-charged sh*tboxes we call buses.

The noise bylaw states that between 11pm and 7am, nobody should be making more than 60dB of noise. SO guess when buses stop coming past my bedroom window? 1:30am. Guess what the decibel level is when the bus stops at the stop outside my window, then roars back to life? I'd say outdoors its probably 90-100dB, but I've measured the indoor sound level, with the windows closed, is 68dB. With the frigging windows closed. The same frigging windows that are consistently covered in soot from these frigging buses belching their exhaust directly at my 2nd floor windows.

Noise bylaw aside, buses are by FAR the noisiest on-street vehicle, consistently. Even dump trucks are quieter. Why do we have to put up with another minute of this sh*t.

And don't get me started on the midnight-to-1:00am daily leaf blower street sweeper crew, clearly violating their own noise bylaw... ugh.
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