North Hill Development

[speedog]

The problem is that 16th Ave just isn't a pedestrian friendly environment - even Centre Street is not that great from a pedestrian's viewpoint. Too many vehicles going too fast - Edmonton Trail at the top of the hill is a much more inviting area. 4th Street NW up by McDonalds (23-27 Ave) - that has promise but things like the old Macs across from McDonalds (Korean restaurant) and a lot of other stuff in the area needs to be bulldozed and redone. Garden center on 24th ave - repurpose that land as well.

[DizzyEdge]

16th is a challenge. I wonder if there is an example of a road as wide and with as much traffic volume that works as a pedestrian corridor elsewhere in the world.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by speedog

The problem is that 16th Ave just isn't a pedestrian friendly environment - even Centre Street is not that great from a pedestrian's viewpoint. Too many vehicles going too fast - Edmonton Trail at the top of the hill is a much more inviting area. 4th Street NW up by McDonalds (23-27 Ave) - that has promise but things like the old Macs across from McDonalds (Korean restaurant) and a lot of other stuff in the area needs to be bulldozed and redone. Garden center on 24th ave - repurpose that land as well.

I like that garden centre! Its a nice thing to have in the community. Unless density really changes, I think its fine, though maybe the billboard could go...

Oh, and hello to a fellow Highwoodian!

[speedog]

Upper or lower Highwood? Lower here.

[Fuzz]

I didn't know their were 2 sides! Probably lower, if we are going by elevation.

[speedog]

Yupp, the joke is everything to the west of Northmount is Upper Highwood.

[DizzyEdge]

So went to the community consultation thing.
Most if not all people seemed into higher density on Centre and Edmonton Trail (the two corridors discussed). 4 story no problem, although apparently a LUA came in for a 7 story building at 29th ave and Centre that the community thought was perhaps a bit much.
Everyone seemed to want much more retail on Centre and def some more Edmonton Tr, although maybe more of a cluster than the entire length of Edm Tr.
Mixed views on the LRT. At least a few "it should go the nose creek route", with the remainder preferring Edm Trail, but somewhat accepting that it will probably be Centre.

Some of the LRT comments:

- Worries about crime (my opinion, it's already a heavy transit corridor, a different mode won't change anything)

- Worries about people parking to catch the train downtown. Although I thought that might be overblown, I heard from a number of people that suburban residents drop their kids off at daycare(s) in the area and then hop on the bus to make their way downtown. So it appears it is a real issue, but wouldn't necessarily get worse with LRT vs bus. Parking Permit zones might be the way to go if it does

- A lot of people who felt negatively about the LRT on centre, felt that it was going through their community just to serve suburban riders. This was due to there perhaps only being a couple of stops between centre street bridge and 32nd ave. They had a point here. LRT through the area is touted to increase busineses and the like, but will stops 12 blocks apart really make much difference? I believe they would be much more pro-lrt on centre if there were 6 block distances between stops south of 32nd or 40th. (on the latest route map it shows stops at 9th ave -> 16th ave->28th ave->40th ave. So 7/12/12 block gaps, or 700m/1200m/1200m. In comparison Bloor line in Toronto has 600m gaps along Bloor.

- Also worries that a lot of additional retail without parking combined with a lot of permit only zones to deal with park and rides, would leave basically no parking for businesses. Suggested city should buy a few lots off centre for parking. Considering Kensington and Inglewood have dedicated city parking lots along the stretch, I don't think that's a bad idea.

Anyway, far less anti development than I may have feared, multiple times I heard people say they wish the area could be the next Kensington or Inglewood.

[shreddog]

Thanks for the update. I wanted to attend, but was previously engaged. Good to hear that the general feeling was more positive than not.

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

So went to the community consultation thing.
Most if not all people seemed into higher density on Centre and Edmonton Trail (the two corridors discussed). 4 story no problem, although apparently a LUA came in for a 7 story building at 29th ave and Centre that the community thought was perhaps a bit much.

....
- Worries about people parking to catch the train downtown. Although I thought that might be overblown, I heard from a number of people that suburban residents drop their kids off at daycare(s) in the area and then hop on the bus to make their way downtown. So it appears it is a real issue, but wouldn't necessarily get worse with LRT vs bus. Parking Permit zones might be the way to go if it does
...

Definitely a real issue. On days I work from home I see a noticeable number of "foreigners" parking on the side streets. While currently an "issue" as you say, permit parking solves this easily

Personally I'll support anything that fixes up the black hole that is Centre street. I've been living in Tuxedo for over 12 years and nothing has really changed. I still can't figure that one out!

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by speedog

... 4th Street NW up by McDonalds (23-27 Ave) - that has promise but things like the old Macs across from McDonalds (Korean restaurant) and a lot of other stuff in the area needs to be bulldozed and redone. Garden center on 24th ave - repurpose that land as well.

Plantation STAYS!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously, I'm friends with the owner and have "helped" out a couple times during his busy days. You may be surprised at how many people walk there to buy their gardening "stuff" and take it home via a wagon! At Christmas you often see people walking home with their tree! I think it's a crucial part of the community and actually adds to the urban environment.

While Sura could interact with the street better, the biggest hole is across the street - the former Rembrants and the office bldg around it. Walking from the McDonalds to north of 24th is like walking through a Walmart parking lot, sans the POW. Nikon is also a street killer, though 4th Spot distracts it quite well!

For the past 12 years I've lived on 24th between 4th and Centre and while I love it, I do wish both streets were "denser" - though we do have our little gems!

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Thanks for the update. I wanted to attend, but was previously engaged. Good to hear that the general feeling was more positive than not.

Definitely a real issue. On days I work from home I see a noticeable number of "foreigners" parking on the side streets. While currently an "issue" as you say, permit parking solves this easily

Personally I'll support anything that fixes up the black hole that is Centre street. I've been living in Tuxedo for over 12 years and nothing has really changed. I still can't figure that one out!

Well a representative of the community said he had lived there 10 yrs, and the last 2 years are far busier for permits than he's ever seen, so it sounds like it's ramping up. Unfortunately until council picks a route for LRT I feel it may stay in a bit of limbo.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Thanks for the update. I wanted to attend, but was previously engaged. Good to hear that the general feeling was more positive than not.

Definitely a real issue. On days I work from home I see a noticeable number of "foreigners" parking on the side streets. While currently an "issue" as you say, permit parking solves this easily

Personally I'll support anything that fixes up the black hole that is Centre street. I've been living in Tuxedo for over 12 years and nothing has really changed. I still can't figure that one out!

To me the key points was the number of people who wanted amenities to walk to, and unlike some meetings i've been at for other communities, for issues like parking rather than just 'no more people!' residents suggested solutions, like the purchasing of lots for city parking.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Well a representative of the community said he had lived there 10 yrs, and the last 2 years are far busier for permits than he's ever seen, so it sounds like it's ramping up. Unfortunately until council picks a route for LRT I feel it may stay in a bit of limbo.

Glad to hear, but you probably have heard me complain here before on the glacial pace of change going on on Centre. I can think of at least 6 faded "construction coming" signs between 20th and 32nd and then there's the dead "Parkview" lot. And the one going up across from Centex is being built by some guy on weekends and evenings in between golf games!

Hopefully a green line decision will set the balling flying!

[DizzyEdge]

Some other things brought up:

- "higher quality" of retail and "Cooler" retail. Unfortunately I think places with cool/funky retail tend to have it because it's an area with older buildings, with smaller retail spaces, and cheaper rent. I think the best you can do with new construction is mandate smaller commercial retail units (CRU) in new buildings, basically reducing total rent by reducing size.

- It was also mentioned by me and a few others that although retail all along Centre, 4th, and Edm Trl would be nice, there isn't enough people to fill them all, so Centre should be the main drag, and 4th and Edm Trl should have retail nodes. The 22nd-26th ave area on 4th being improved would make sense of course, as well as the 20th/Edm Trl intersection, and the area around 24th and Edm Trl.

Of course if Edmonton Trail was picked for LRT that could change a lot.

[Blue_Cypress]

[QUOTE=DizzyEdge;6605706]
Not a huge fan of fake old, but if need be maybe this

http://www.diynetwork.com/home-impro...res/index.html

/QUOTE]

That's so bad that I feel compelled to locate the architect so I can beat the crap out of him. I think I'd be forced to burn this down if it was built anywhere near me.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

16th is a challenge. I wonder if there is an example of a road as wide and with as much traffic volume that works as a pedestrian corridor elsewhere in the world.

Champs-Elysees.

[DizzyEdge]

[QUOTE=Blue_Cypress;6606201]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Not a huge fan of fake old, but if need be maybe this

http://www.diynetwork.com/home-impro...res/index.html

/QUOTE]

That's so bad that I feel compelled to locate the architect so I can beat the crap out of him. I think I'd be forced to burn this down if it was built anywhere near me.

You know why I posted that though, many prefer "traditional" vs "contemporary".

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Champs-Elysees.

So the main thing that seems to make it work is simply very wide sidewalks, and trees. Using google maps as my inaccurate method of measurement, building facade to building facade on Champs-Elysees is about 65m, on Centre it's about 30m. Champs-Elysees, maybe two 9m wide sidewalks. (Champs-Elysees also has a separated lane with parking on both sides adjacent to the sidewalk but Centre is too narrow for that sort of thing). So maybe a Centre st with 4m sidewalks and trees could be a pleasant place to be.

That said I prefer the LRT to be underground until about 30th ave or so anyway.


Also, on one section of Champs-Elysees there are crosswalks every 75m on average. On Centre 16th ave to 32nd ave it's 180m on average.

[speedog]

So back to 16th Ave, let's compare apples to apples - is there something in Canada/USA that works well as a pedestrian friendly environment that is comparable in width/traffic volume to 16th Ave?

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

So the main thing that seems to make it work is simply very wide sidewalks, and trees. Using google maps as my inaccurate method of measurement, building facade to building facade on Champs-Elysees is about 65m, on Centre it's about 30m. Champs-Elysees, maybe two 9m wide sidewalks. (Champs-Elysees also has a separated lane with parking on both sides adjacent to the sidewalk but Centre is too narrow for that sort of thing). So maybe a Centre st with 4m sidewalks and trees could be a pleasant place to be.

That said I prefer the LRT to be underground until about 30th ave or so anyway.


Also, on one section of Champs-Elysees there are crosswalks every 75m on average. On Centre 16th ave to 32nd ave it's 180m on average.

[speedog]

As far as the garden center, yeah it's a little inner-city gem but if that area develops more density in the future,then that land may very become so valuable that it will be re-purposed.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by speedog

So back to 16th Ave, let's compare apples to apples - is there something in Canada/USA that works well as a pedestrian friendly environment that is comparable in width/traffic volume to 16th Ave?

Spadina Ave in Toronto? Granted, it has a trolley running down it, however in the future I can see bus only lanes on 16th helping to enhance it.

I am sure there are others, just can't think of any off the top of my head.