Building Boom Set to Vault Toronto Past Chicago in Skyscraper Rankings

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm a bit surprised by that, 'cause as you pointed out, it has symbolic importance not only for the Lone Star State but also for the U.S. in general / manifest destiny.

I read and enjoyed James A. Michener's book "Texas" so I'm probably not typical there for a Canadian (I did learn lots of stuff in it), and as well due to years of Amarillo real estate investing and exploration - where one of the most interesting neighborhoods in terms of cap rates has its streets all named after early Texas heroes - I can spout off such names without cheating (Bowie, Fannin, Crockett, Lamar, Rusk...) and I can even say I remember somewhat decently who each is...

Oh I know about the Alamo. I was not trying to give the impression that I did not.

But I am not that typical. Like you.

My mom doesn't know of it, and I doubt a high school gym teacher in Brazil knows of it. Same goes for a bank manager in Russia.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I would place Sears Tower well above CN Tower, even if it's not Eiffel Tower or Giza pyramids level iconic. I'm not from Chicago, nor do I think I have a Chicago bias, but it's the most well-known building in North America that's not in Manhattan or Washington, D.C.

I'd put the Transamerica Pyramid ahead of the Sear Tower. It's the shape that makes it more recognizable.

This seems to be Chicago's icon. The metallic bean in Millennium Park as well.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Oh I know about the Alamo. I was not trying to give the impression that I did not.

But I am not that typical. Like you.

My mom doesn't know of it, and I doubt a high school gym teacher in Brazil knows of it. Same goes for a bank manager in Russia.

I didn't know about it until maybe a decade ago when I watched a travel video on San Antonio as part of my interest in urbanism (just curious about it as a city I didn't know; wasn't preparing to travel there). If I had not actively explored that interest I doubt I would know anything about it even today. It's my impression that outside the US, you'd only know about it if you a) were a US history buff, b) were a travel/urbanism buff or c) were a general trivia buff.

Even now, even though I know it's a historic/tourist site in SA that's somehow related to a historic battle, I don't remember what it looks like or anything else about it.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Razor

mmmm If I was visiting a random small Romanian village and if I brought my St Louis friend of mine with me (have to find one first), and told that random village lady with the shopping cart that I was from Toronto (even though I'm not), she would be more apt to say "ohhh", and make a hand drawing gesture of the CN tower in the air, followed by her mustachioed husband laughing at it for being a phallic symbol..My St. Louis pal wouldn't invoke any sort of reaction for his "air arc"..They would assume we were looking for a MacDonald's, and point us down the road. In all fairness, Toronto is higher profile then St. Louis globally, so it's probably not a fair story...Having said that, I've always equated St Louis with the arc, and for some odd reason those 19th century river boats with the wheel in the back.

To be fair, that random village lady probably has a nephew in Toronto

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by lio45

Just clicked on Chris' link - the listing for that John Hancock unit says clearly that it has "in-unit laundry".

So apparently certain units now allow it. Until recently, there were no hookups allowed, which is automatic dealbreaker for anyone with kids. Laundry rooms are fine when you're single but not with kids with random poop explosions.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

To be fair, that random village lady probably has a nephew in Toronto

Heh heh .Ya probably . And he's a friend of a friend?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I didn't know about it until maybe a decade ago when I watched a travel video on San Antonio as part of my interest in urbanism (just curious about it as a city I didn't know; wasn't preparing to travel there). If I had not actively explored that interest I doubt I would know anything about it even today. It's my impression that outside the US, you'd only know about it if you a) were a US history buff, b) were a travel/urbanism buff or c) were a general trivia buff.

Even now, even though I know it's a historic/tourist site in SA that's somehow related to a historic battle, I don't remember what it looks like or anything else about it.

Plus, if you take away its historic significance, the Alamo building itself doesn't stand out that much from countless other Spanish mission buildings in the SW US.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by emathias

Toronto will almost certainly pass Chicago soon enough. But with these current numbers, they're have to have 80% of the proposed towers complete to pass Chicago, so it might be closer to 2030 when it happens than 2020 or 2025.

at some point L.A. has to kick into high gear, i mean right? i think there is outrageous pent-up demand.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

at some point L.A. has to kick into high gear, i mean right? i think there is outrageous pent-up demand.

Why, though? I don't see any reason why LA would build more highrises. The more desirable neighborhoods generally don't allow highrises, and it kinda defeats the central appeal of LA (weather and year-round indoor-outdoor living).

I'll take a modernist ranch in Pacific Palisades, please. I'll pass on the filing cabinets for people in the hazy, hot basin.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by giallo

I'd put the Transamerica Pyramid ahead of the Sear Tower. It's the shape that makes it more recognizable.

This seems to be Chicago's icon. The metallic bean in Millennium Park as well.

I guess we all have our opinions.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Why, though? I don't see any reason why LA would build more highrises. The more desirable neighborhoods generally don't allow highrises, and it kinda defeats the central appeal of LA (weather and year-round indoor-outdoor living).

I'll take a modernist ranch in Pacific Palisades, please. I'll pass on the filing cabinets for people in the hazy, hot basin.

haha what? 100% of a demand for middle class nice modern units with balconys, etc, just like toronto. i mean LA is behind texas in the metric?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

haha what? 100% of a demand for middle class nice modern units with balconys, etc, just like toronto. i mean LA is behind texas in the metric?

Not sure I understand this. Nowhere in TX has more highrises than LA, and TX doesn't have the same weather/lifestyles. Who in TX doesn't have heat or AC? My aunt has neither and dinner outside most nights.

Toronto doesn't have unique demand, it has unique supply. Look at Toronto SFH prices, and compare to multifamily prices. Toronto demand is the same as the U.S. People want SFH, and pay a premium for SFH. Multifamily in Toronto is relatively cheap. Those highrises are being built because SFH are barely allowed, and normal folks can't afford SFH like in the U.S.

[Northern Light]

Back to the core issue that started this thread.......

Toronto's Boom.

Just announced by Oxford Properties; they are developing their land holdings in downtown Mississauga (Toronto's largest western suburb)

Rundown:

37 new towers
18,000 residential units
35,000 estimated residents

Project website: http://www.sq1district.com/



Ground Breaking in the next 12 months.

FYI, most of this is currently mall parking/vacant land, or one-storey retail.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by giallo

I'd put the Transamerica Pyramid ahead of the Sear Tower. It's the shape that makes it more recognizable.

This seems to be Chicago's icon. The metallic bean in Millennium Park as well.

Chicago doesn't seem to have an "Eiffel Tower" the way some other (lesser, even) cities do. CN Tower, The Alamo, Gateway Arch...

Someone had a good metric a few pages ago - shooter glasses and coffee mugs. If you have a souvenir shot glass from SA or TO, chances are high there's the Alamo / CN Tower on it. What's Chicago's symbol? The Willis Tower? That's probably the closest thing...

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Toronto doesn't have unique demand, it has unique supply. Look at Toronto SFH prices, and compare to multifamily prices. Toronto demand is the same as the U.S. People want SFH, and pay a premium for SFH. Multifamily in Toronto is relatively cheap. Those highrises are being built because SFH are barely allowed, and normal folks can't afford SFH like in the U.S.

The average Toronto condo price as of July 2019 was CAD$627,927 (versus $1,167,968 for houses). And a big chunk of those are 1-bedrooms - For family-sized units (3+ bedrooms) that increases to over $800,000. Condos in Toronto definitely aren't cheap - and are also appreciating at a much faster rate than houses.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

The average Toronto condo price as of July 2019 was CAD$627,927 (versus $1,167,968 for houses). And a big chunk of those are 1-bedrooms - For family-sized units (3+ bedrooms) that increases to over $800,000. Condos in Toronto definitely aren't cheap - and are also appreciating at a much faster rate than houses.

Toronto condos are generally much more affordable than SFH. 470k USD will generally not get you an intown, newer construction condo unit in a desirable locale in the U.S. In contrast, essentially no U.S. markets outside the Bay Area have such SFH prices.

Basically the U.S. has an oversupply of SFH, and Canada has an oversupply of multifamily, both owing to nonsensical, extreme policy decisions, with the U.S. going all-in on hyperlocal, fossilized NIMBY control, and Canada going all-in on migration ponzi.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm a bit surprised by that, 'cause as you pointed out, it has symbolic importance not only for the Lone Star State but also for the U.S. in general / manifest destiny.

Manifest destiny as a concept/topic was discussed quite a bit in my history classes growing up in Canada, but a lot of it wasn't focused on the Mexican/US border side, but boundary disputes with British North America, naturally given that being the most salient for Canadians.

However, I can see the US being more aware of the history of how manifest destiny played out across all its borders -- the Mexican one, Canadian one, and even other aspects (eg. cross the sea to Pacific islands like Hawaii, and also towards the Caribbean).

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am trying hard to think of something that would come to mind for more people worldwide than the CN Tower when it comes to Toronto.

Something vague like diversity (probably not - city demographics don't typically interest the average joe, at least not in the way we think about them) or a sports team like the Raptors?

They do if particular cities go out of their way to portray themselves as a hotspot or cultural hub for a particular demographic, e.g. African Americans in Atlanta. Sometimes, cultural demographics lend themselves to tourism or reputation (eg. San Francisco's Chinatown having the longest history within the Chinese diaspora in N. America) though to what extent contemporary demographics matter for that vs. past demographics that already set up a reputation is hard to say.

It seems like newer demographic changes tend to take some time to filter through the general public's consciousness (e.g. people aren't aware of the Hispanic population share in Chicago relative to the African American one, because the latter seems to have a longer history both in statistical numbers until recently and in the public view; now Hispanics are Chicago's largest "minority" but this happened only a few years ago).

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

To be fair, that random village lady probably has a nephew in Toronto

That's something that's possibly an up-and-coming benefit to Toronto's international reputation, an underappreciated one.

If lots of people abroad have relatives in a place, it will increase the knowledge and reputation of that place abroad and in diaspora.

If knowledge of a city can pass through the grapevine and through social media connections to family ties, nowadays people in some tiny village can hear of a place and feel connected no matter if the mass media or mainstream media covers it or not.

The decentralization of media and information sources can be a boon for places that have traditionally not been (especially American or western) pop culture icons because now they don't have to wait for a few mainstream sources to get "recognition" in the rest of the world.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Toronto condos are generally much more affordable than SFH. 470k USD will generally not get you an intown, newer construction condo unit in a desirable locale in the U.S. In contrast, essentially no U.S. markets outside the Bay Area have such SFH prices.

The exchange rate is irrelevant as Torontonians don't get paid in US dollars. Relative to local incomes, where in North America outside of maybe Vancouver, New York, and San Francisco is multi-family housing more expensive?

Worth noting though that comparing condo prices without further context is also a bit tricky, as in many markets they skew towards higher-end city centre type projects, versus others where they run the whole range in terms of quality and location.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

The exchange rate is irrelevant, Torontonians don't get paid in US dollars. Relative to local incomes, where in North America outside of maybe Vancouver, New York, and San Francisco is multi-family housing more expensive?

Are there many Americans buying homes in Toronto anyways?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

=


They do if particular cities go out of their way to portray themselves as a hotspot or cultural hub for a particular demographic, e.g. African Americans in Atlanta. Sometimes, cultural demographics lend themselves to tourism or reputation (eg. San Francisco's Chinatown having the longest history within the Chinese diaspora in N. America) though to what extent contemporary demographics matter for that vs. past demographics that already set up a reputation is hard to say.

.

My point was more that diversity is not really a universally recognized Toronto calling card, as in... "Toronto? Ohh... yeah... diversity!" (If you look at the exchanges I was having.) Or at least, not nearly as much as some Torontonians seem to think it is.

Sure some people know that Toronto has lots of people from all over the world living there, but this is a feature that's well known for many other places too: NYC, London, etc.

Beyond the fact that this gives them a relative assurance that as a person from Identifiable Group X they won't likely face extreme discrimination there, I don't really think most of them care about that stuff.