Halifax Stadium Discussion

[someone123]

Presumably they can plan a $130M stadium in a way that allows them to add bells and whistles after.

There isn't much difference between the $70-90M soccer-oriented stadium HRM council voted in favour of funding a while ago and a $130M stadium that is suitable for the CFL. And I think it's well worth it for the city if they can show that it will be used by many different groups. The promoters need to try to frame this as a request for funding for shared public infrastructure that happens to be useful to a CFL team, not a "CFL stadium" or funding for the CFL. The city should make sure that if they are funding it the facility is of practical use to other local groups, not just a CFL team.

[Colin May]

HRM has a problem with their pension plan because because after a 10 year bull market the plan still has a significant going concern deficit of $184 million as of Dec 31 2017. Yes it is lower than the $214 million deficit at December 31 2012 but if they cannot eliminate the deficit after the long bull run and the significant increase since the election of Trump how will they manage when the inevitable world wide slowdown occurs ?
This council will not support a stadium until after the next election, and only if the economy continues to be strong. The votes are just not there and Savage doesn't need a promise of a stadium to be re-elected.

[q12]

More details in this article:

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/ne...da-day-281961/

and here:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...rops-1.5006177

[c-way-dude]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...dium-1.5010173

[W.Sobchak]

To be frank, I don't really have much energy in me about this. The locations listed are 70's design mentality locations where people only drive there, and any idea of proactive options are turned down outright.

This should be a sports field that can be used by local sports too, as in regional/high school/university finals, are hosted there. If the city is going to own it, the public should should have limited access to the field, and the best way to have it have the most impact is to put it in the the densest local, the Peninsula.

Secondly, as a product to spend my money on, the CFL just isn't on my list. Let it go to Moncton and watch it struggle.

[teddifax]

I don't know why the Pit was never considered as a spot. It is into a hill. This is the open park at the tip of the peninsula not far from the McKay bridge. I don't know if it has the room for this, but if it did, I think it would be a great location.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by W.Sobchak

Let it go to Moncton and watch it struggle.

If Brian Gallant were still Premier of NB, he would be happy to have it, but with the new Higgs government, there is not a chance in hell that any public funds would be made available to upgrade the Moncton Stadium.

Moncton (that's the city of Moncton, not including Riverview or Dieppe), population 71,000, just spent $115M on a new downtown 8,800 seat arena (the Avenir Centre). I can't imagine why HRM (population about 410,000) isn't able to spend a similar amount of money on a new stadium.

Are Halifax's finances that grim???

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If Brian Gallant were still Premier of NB, he would be happy to have it, but with the new Higgs government, there is not a chance in hell that any public funds would be made available to upgrade the Moncton Stadium.

Moncton (that's the city of Moncton, not including Riverview or Dieppe), population 71,000, just spent $115M on a new downtown 8,800 seat arena (the Avenir Centre). I can't imagine why HRM (population about 410,000) isn't able to spend a similar amount of money on a new stadium.

Are Halifax's finances that grim???

City of Moncton employees don't have the generous benefits that are given to HRM employees, see my earlier post. And we don't want a repeat of the Regina folly.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If Brian Gallant were still Premier of NB, he would be happy to have it, but with the new Higgs government, there is not a chance in hell that any public funds would be made available to upgrade the Moncton Stadium.

Moncton (that's the city of Moncton, not including Riverview or Dieppe), population 71,000, just spent $115M on a new downtown 8,800 seat arena (the Avenir Centre). I can't imagine why HRM (population about 410,000) isn't able to spend a similar amount of money on a new stadium.

Are Halifax's finances that grim???

The city’s finances are fine, but council is is trying to hold property taxes stable while finding $20 million for transportation efforts, including long-planned bike lanes and transit improvements at risk of being deferred in our current capital budget. There isn’t millions of dollars kicking around to bankroll something private enterprise should be able to finance itself.

Did Moncton alone really spend that much on Avenir? That’s incredible. Regardless though, there’s an argument to be made that the centre is in the city’s best interests, an investment in downtown, not a subsidy to a sports team.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Did Moncton alone really spend that much on Avenir? That’s incredible. Regardless though, there’s an argument to be made that the centre is in the city’s best interests, an investment in downtown, not a subsidy to a sports team.

Yes, the Avenir Centre cost that much, but after federal and provincial contributions and fundraising, the city was likely on the hook for no more than $40M or so.

And, yes you're right, the city viewed this as a vital piece of infrastructure necessary for the revitalization of the downtown core, so there were other reasons to build the arena. The city expects about $250M or so of new private investment in the Avenir Centre neighbourhood in the next 5-7 years or so, so this will significantly increase the tax base of the city, somewhat offsetting the cost of the new arena.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

The city’s finances are fine, but council is is trying to hold property taxes stable while finding $20 million for transportation efforts, including long-planned bike lanes and transit improvements at risk of being deferred in our current capital budget. There isn’t millions of dollars kicking around to bankroll something private enterprise should be able to finance itself.

Did Moncton alone really spend that much on Avenir? That’s incredible. Regardless though, there’s an argument to be made that the centre is in the city’s best interests, an investment in downtown, not a subsidy to a sports team.

There never will be millions kicking around though. There's always budgetary pressure; people want lower taxes, employees want more pay, people want better services, etc.

I almost always see Halifax and Nova Scotia's fiscal outlook described as grim. However, Halifax's nominal debt load has fallen over the years and per capita and in terms of the size of the economy it has plummeted. Nova Scotia peaked at something like 47% debt to GDP around 2000 and now it's around 33%. The outlook is not really grim. The city and province can afford a stadium.

I don't think that infrastructure has to be confined to downtown, and a large stadium might not even make sense there. In a recent article, it was speculated that the stadium could be used on 300 nights a year. CFL games would only be a small portion of that. Clearly it could be a piece of civic infrastructure, just like Scotiabank. I think it would be a terrible investment if it were just a subsidy for the CFL but that's not really what's on the table.

The idea of dropping some frills (and CFL-oriented features) to get the price tag down is a good one.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by Colin May

And we don't want a repeat of the Regina folly.

People always bring up Regina as an example of something bad and I am unsure why.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

People always bring up Regina as an example of something bad and I am unsure why.

Just read the City of Regina financial statements, available online. They have 5 year comparisons in each report, HRM does not. Their annual reports are detailed and easy to understand. HRM does not publish an annual report, only annual financial statements.
I have yet to hear any sensible explanation as to how the province can help fund a stadium when the Teachers Pension Plan has a crisis in the form of a $1.4 billion going concern unfunded liability. It is ludicrous to think that the province has money for a stadium when it cannot fund a pension plan where the number of pensioners is equal to the number of contributors.
And then there is the Winnipeg stadium fiasco : https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/lo...489143541.html

[riders78]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

People always bring up Regina as an example of something bad and I am unsure why.

Yes I don't understand this either. There was some opposition to the stadium but not a huge amount. The province did provide some loan guarantees but the largest part of financing for the new Mosaic stadium is ticket surcharges. People who buy tickets for the stadium are paying for it over the long term. I am not sure why more stadiums in Canada are not funded this way. It is a fantastic stadium by the way.

[W.Sobchak]

I will be watching the Wanderers closely, and the Stadium they use is in a great spot. I don't want to drive after having a pint, before or after the game.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Did Moncton alone really spend that much on Avenir? That’s incredible. Regardless though, there’s an argument to be made that the centre is in the city’s best interests, an investment in downtown, not a subsidy to a sports team.

I am surprised no one has pointed out that in fact the City of Moncton has subsidized sports teams for years. Since the Wildcats first moved into the former Coliseum in 1995, the city paid the Irving-owned team an annual grant of $88,000. The money was supposedly to compensate for a lack of corporate boxes at the old arena but was apparently in exchange for an Irving development in the Caledonia industrial park. It totals almost $194,000 over the last 22 years.

I presume the grant went away with the opening of the Avenir Centre. But last year city council agreed to waive a per-ticket maintenance fee for Wildcats season ticket holders, at a cost of about $35,000 a year.

Moncton also agreed last year to cover losses of the National Basketball League's Moncton Magic in their first year of occupancy at the Avenir Centre, up to nearly $334,000. That deal, incidentally, was passed by council with only two dissenters.

Moncton, it appears, is unconcerned about the optics of directly subsidizing sports businesses.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

Moncton, it appears, is unconcerned about the optics of directly subsidizing sports businesses.

Moncton also doesn't have a ruinous municipal pension plan hanging like a sword of Damocles over every single financial decision made by regional council........

[MonctonRad]

To be fair, there has been media controversy in the past regarding the city's dealings with Irving about the Wildcats. It was partly because of this that the city signed a management contract with SMG to oversee the Avenir Centre. It was SMG which negotiated the current contract with the Wildcats. City council is no longer involved.

Regarding the Magic, they were seriously considering playing their current season at the old Coliseum rather than at the Avenir Centre, and if they didn't get their way, they might have folded their tent and left the city. The city wanted to maximize the number of events at the Avenir Centre and this is why they agreed to this one time subsidy to the Magic for the current year. The subsidy only kicks in if the Magic fail to achieve expected attendance goals.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

Moncton, it appears, is unconcerned about the optics of directly subsidizing sports businesses.

Maybe that's why they have a new arena and stadium and Halifax just spins the wheels of progress for sporting infrastructure. And maybe Moncton doesn't have a sizeable number of people with nothing better to do than sabotage a project they don't like.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Patience, grasshopper. I firmly believe a stadium will happen in Halifax.