Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Only having 14 thousand permanent seats between the goals lines, and only expandable as well in the endzones to only 25 or 27,000 total seats, and with no amenities.

I think almost everyone agrees with you on this. Can we move on to a different point? No offence wespidel, but I think that we all understand this point.

There is something that bothers me about your opinion that Halifax should build a Winnipeg-type iconic stadium (the new version). A significant proportion of the cost will be in having a few tiers of seating and a few levels of enclosed concourses, a very large iconic roof and a $45 million dollar recreation centre at the University of Manitoba - why are these things required to host CFL games? There are so many good-size soccer/rugby stadiums in Europe and college football stadiums in the US that had to be built economically in cities that couldn't afford iconic stadiums. Why not approach it with this in mind instead of demanding an iconic stadium that most politicians won't risk their political careers on (and rightfully so).

You are asking people to support something that many stadium supporters can't support with a clear conscience, especially in a province that isn't rich. It is also interesting to note that a rich city in Alberta (Calgary) gets by with a large basic stadium (McMahon Stadium) instead of an iconic stadium. Maybe they had a good reason for going with an inexpensive stadium design in 1960 when it was built - for example, they were able to build it instead of just talking about it for decades. It is also an interesting side-note that a McMahon-type stadium was the one proposed for the Atlantic Schooners in the early 1980's.

You are asking Halifax to spend an extra $50 - $70 million on a $150 million dollar stadium so that a Halifax-based team can make an extra $3 million dollars every 10 - 15 years. It would be much, much cheaper to just forget about the Grey Cup and give that money directly to a Halifax-based CFL team.

[fenwick16]

deleted post

[c-way-dude]

I don't agree that Halifax has to spend more to host a Grey Cup. Ottawa is building a pretty basic stadium and will probably host the Grey Cup in 2017. IIRC, the CFL promised Hamilton the opportunity to host a couple of Grey Cups while negotiations to build a stadium there were going on.
IMO, the city, the province, and any private investors should push the CFL to grant Halifax the opportunity to host at least two Grey Cups within a few years of a franchise starting up. It would help all parties involved recover some of their respective investment.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Wasn't the commonwealth stadium proposal in the 20-25k range? With expansion plans for bigger?

IIRC, the stadium was to have about 25k seats along the sidelines and about 25k temporary seats in the endzones, with a projected construction cost of $122 million.

[Migs]

I would absolutely love it if Halifax built a stadium, but if you don't do it right and build it to meet CFL standards it could go down in history as one of the biggest mistakes in your cities history. This is the type of economic impact that could be generated in your town....

http://riderville.com/article/riders...impact-details

These are concept drawings of what's getting built in Regina starting next year.

http://riderville.com/article/concep...or-new-stadium

http://www.reginarevitalization.ca

Would love nothing more than a road trip to Halifax for a Riders vs Schooners game. Get it done Halifax, your kids and grand kids will thank you.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Maybe they had a good reason for going with an inexpensive stadium design in 1960 when it was built - for example, they were able to build it instead of just talking about it for decades.

wespidel is making it sound like this is simply a matter of pushing for an iconic stadium instead of a bare-bones stadium. The reality is that there probably will not be sufficient funding for an iconic stadium (Winnipeg and Regina might be building elaborate stadiums but they already have CFL teams and Halifax does not), so the most likely options are a bare-bones stadium or nothing at all. In practice, insisting on the perfect stadium or nothing will probably just result in nothing being built.

Even if $150M were available for a stadium, it seems like a questionable use of tax dollars. The CFL is a private business and there isn't even any guarantee that Halifax would get a team if a stadium were built there.

[Antigonish]

Originally Posted by someone123

wespidel is making it sound like this is simply a matter of pushing for an iconic stadium instead of a bare-bones stadium. The reality is that there probably will not be sufficient funding for an iconic stadium (Winnipeg might be building one but they already have a CFL team and Halifax does not), so the most likely options are a bare-bones stadium or nothing at all.

Then best to not build it. This is from a football guy, either do it right or stop wasting time and money on it. Personally I'd rather HRM put most of its eggs into improving its transit infrastructure than build a stadium. Thats a much bigger concern thats facing the city.

Shame.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

Then best to not build it. This is from a football guy, either do it right or stop wasting time and money on it. Personally I'd rather HRM put most of its eggs into improving its transit infrastructure than build a stadium. Thats a much bigger concern thats facing the city.

Shame.

A rather interesting thought but I have to speak my mind.
For everything that comes along there are those (councillors included) who want us to put our efforts and money into transit, or bike lanes, or trails, or housing for the poor, or provincially into health care, or education, or etc. It seems to me that these issues will always be of concern and will always need money, we will never solve these issues, no matter how much we put into them, they will always need more.
IMHO we must move beyond into new infastructure like libraries, convention centers, a sports stadium, a concert hall, etc. Let's build a great city.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

Personally I'd rather HRM put most of its eggs into improving its transit infrastructure than build a stadium. Thats a much bigger concern thats facing the city.

Unless you are talking about a rail solution, you cannot fix the transit infrastructure in this town until you reconstruct our obsolete road system. You cannot do that because the EAC types that control much of the media think that improved roads are evil and our esteemed municipal politicians will not support necessary projects like the upgrading of Bayers Rd, a 3rd harbor bridge, an Arm bridge, elimination of the abominable Windsor St exchange, etc., preferring to pander for votes instead of doing what is necessary for the betterment of the city.

Given that, and also given that we are throwing away $60 mil on a palatial library, might as well saddle the taxpayer with a stadium too. I'd rather have that than wasting money on more express buses to Porters Lake and Ecum Sekum.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

A rather interesting thought but I have to speak my mind.
For everything that comes along there are those (councillors included) who want us to put our efforts and money into transit, or bike lanes, or trails, or housing for the poor, or provincially into health care, or education, or etc. It seems to me that these issues will always be of concern and will always need money, we will never solve these issues, no matter how much we put into them, they will always need more.
IMHO we must move beyond into new infastructure like libraries, convention centers, a sports stadium, a concert hall, etc. Let's build a great city.

Exactly! I mean, we aren't going to live in a utopia and the tax dollars should be used in building a facility (that will take labour to build) and eventually the facility will host events and employ people.

Its a short term cost for a long term gain. A stadium should last 40-50 years, by which time it will have paid itself off.

[fenwick16]

There are so many ideas of what "building it right" means. Having expensive, iconic stadiums will be a novelty for people in Winnipeg and Regina. Places like Toronto and Montreal have already experienced decades of expensive, money losing iconic stadiums, which are the Montreal Olympic Stadium and Toronto Rogers Centre.

The fall weather in Halifax is quite mild so going to a stadium on a pleasant day to be trapped in the enclosed concourses of a stadium seems to be a mistake. BMO Field was a low cost stadium and it attracts sell-out crowds for a losing soccer team and still people enjoy the open-air concourses and festive atmosphere (I think it is a good analogy because the Toronto weather is similar to the Halifax weather and many MLS games are held during the fall). Most MLS soccer stadiums have been built simply and seem to be enjoyable. Whenever I go to events at the Toronto Rogers Centre on a pleasant day I feel like I am trapped in a concrete bunker.

I really hope that residents of the Halifax area won't get sucked into the iconic stadium craze. It is a novelty that wears off very quickly, and once it does then you will be stuck with a structure that will be too costly to abandon and too costly to keep. I hope that Haligonians will consider the residents of Boston and Chicago who decided to stick with their popular, old baseball stadiums of Fenway Park and Wrigley Field.

I hope that Halifax will build a stadium that people will enjoy but it doesn't have to cost $150 million - $200 million to be enjoyable.

[wespidel]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I think almost everyone agrees with you on this. Can we move on to a different point? No offence wespidel, but I think that we all understand this point.

There is something that bothers me about your opinion that Halifax should build a Winnipeg-type iconic stadium (the new version). A significant proportion of the cost will be in having a few tiers of seating and a few levels of enclosed concourses, a very large iconic roof and a $45 million dollar recreation centre at the University of Manitoba - why are these things required to host CFL games? There are so many good-size soccer/rugby stadiums in Europe and college football stadiums in the US that had to be built economically in cities that couldn't afford iconic stadiums. Why not approach it with this in mind instead of demanding an iconic stadium that most politicians won't risk their political careers on (and rightfully so).

You are asking people to support something that many stadium supporters can't support with a clear conscience, especially in a province that isn't rich. It is also interesting to note that a rich city in Alberta (Calgary) gets by with a large basic stadium (McMahon Stadium) instead of an iconic stadium. Maybe they had a good reason for going with an inexpensive stadium design in 1960 when it was built - for example, they were able to build it instead of just talking about it for decades. It is also an interesting side-note that a McMahon-type stadium was the one proposed for the Atlantic Schooners in the early 1980's.

You are asking Halifax to spend an extra $50 - $70 million on a $150 million dollar stadium so that a Halifax-based team can make an extra $3 million dollars every 10 - 15 years. It would be much, much cheaper to just forget about the Grey Cup and give that money directly to a Halifax-based CFL team.

That is why the current stadium does not work and can't make money. Bob Young will make money with his new CFL model because of the make up of the facility and it's features that allows him to make money. And Bob Young like every CFL owner wants and needs to host a Grey Cup and so does every CFL city. Halifax has a huge opportunity here and why not build the best you can build. You don't build a stadium more the twice in 60 years or more, so why not build it right. In case of Calgary's current stadium which I have been to three times and twice for Grey Cups. It's a total different facility than what was built in the 60's. It actually use to hold 39,000, and now holds 35,600 since they took out seats to put in skyboxes. The Calgary flames ownership Group who now own the stamps are starting a 20 million dollar renovation to improve the facility. They eventually will build a brand new 300 to 400 million dollar CFL model stadium. My son is a Calgary Stampeder season ticket holder. They need to spend a lot of money improving their current facility or build a brand new state of the facility like Regina is building, which will definitely happen in Calgary in the next 5 to 7 years. The CFL wants a 10th team and it can only be Halifax or Quebec city you gets it, but only if one of the two steps up and commits to build a CFL ready made model stadium, can it happen. I have a lot of respect for Mark Cohon, and I can assure you when he said 200 million to build a CFL model stadium, at his state of league meeting at the 100th Grey Cup, he surely knows what he is talking about. I do believe though in Halifax a 150,000 million dollar stadium, less the training facility centre and administration offices, can be built to CFL standards and built to host a Grey Cup game, which every owner and city needs to have as well.

[wespidel]

Originally Posted by someone123

wespidel is making it sound like this is simply a matter of pushing for an iconic stadium instead of a bare-bones stadium. The reality is that there probably will not be sufficient funding for an iconic stadium (Winnipeg and Regina might be building elaborate stadiums but they already have CFL teams and Halifax does not), so the most likely options are a bare-bones stadium or nothing at all. In practice, insisting on the perfect stadium or nothing will probably just result in nothing being built.

Even if $150M were available for a stadium, it seems like a questionable use of tax dollars. The CFL is a private business and there isn't even any guarantee that Halifax would get a team if a stadium were built there.

That will sit empty and will never, ever attract a CFL owner! You have to have the facility first and then you will attract a new CFL owner,not the other way around. Ask Winnipeg that same question on their new NHL team. No NHL ready made modern up to date arena, no team! It's a simple as that!

[wespidel]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

I don't agree that Halifax has to spend more to host a Grey Cup. Ottawa is building a pretty basic stadium and will probably host the Grey Cup in 2017. IIRC, the CFL promised Hamilton the opportunity to host a couple of Grey Cups while negotiations to build a stadium there were going on.
IMO, the city, the province, and any private investors should push the CFL to grant Halifax the opportunity to host at least two Grey Cups within a few years of a franchise starting up. It would help all parties involved recover some of their respective investment.

Dollar stadiums, and they are both basic CFL scale models, which Halifax needs to build as well to be a player, but why not build one even better and build it like Winnipeg's new stadium, which is 198 million.

[Antigonish]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Unless you are talking about a rail solution, you cannot fix the transit infrastructure in this town until you reconstruct our obsolete road system. You cannot do that because the EAC types that control much of the media think that improved roads are evil and our esteemed municipal politicians will not support necessary projects like the upgrading of Bayers Rd, a 3rd harbor bridge, an Arm bridge, elimination of the abominable Windsor St exchange, etc., preferring to pander for votes instead of doing what is necessary for the betterment of the city.

Given that, and also given that we are throwing away $60 mil on a palatial library, might as well saddle the taxpayer with a stadium too. I'd rather have that than wasting money on more express buses to Porters Lake and Ecum Sekum.

I should have been more clear, my bad. I was refering to light rail. A third crossing is essential aswell. And believe me cyclists are the bain of my existence.

Overall I think your spot on. Maybe I'm just a rail fanboy, but I feel its the best way to go with the way Halifax has grown out and the potential it has to stimulate development outside of those "precious" viewpanes the STV types always whine about protecting while still maintaining respectable commute times to the core.

The reality is HRM can't afford both at the same time, I'd prefer this issue to be resolved first then a stadium with "potential".

Originally Posted by fenwick16

There are so many ideas of what "building it right" means. Having expensive, iconic stadiums will be a novelty for people in Winnipeg and Regina. Places like Toronto and Montreal have already experienced decades of expensive, money losing iconic stadiums, which are the Montreal Olympic Stadium and Toronto Rogers Centre.

Good point. I think what we all seem to forget is SMUs renovation of Husky Stadium. Keep in mind the expansion is supposed to be in the 13,000 range IIRC. Whats the point in building another new stadium around the same size only because it could have "potential" to expand to something bigger?

Any club/organization/event making its tracks to a venue that size will go to Saint Marys anyways so whats the point in a second stadium with no market value or tenant to fill in the short term? No potential CFL ownership group will invest in something like that if they have to front another $60-$80 million just to bring it up to standards before it can be used.

The BMO field example is something I agree with, perhaps slightly bigger. Thats still a big step up from a 14,000 'make-shift' stadium with "potential".

[wespidel]

OK, then what can Halifax build today for 100 million if they had their own piece of land that does not need outrageous clean-up costs, so the majority of the hundred million can be put into the construction of the stadium. Can you build a modern facility that has all the latest amenities needed in a stadium today to be viable, that has 25 to 30 thousand permanent modern seats between the goal lines, 35 to 45 skyboxes, VIP lounges, club seats, restaurants, shops, open concourses with permanent concession stands and washrooms with HD monitors throughout, modern Jumbo HD video screens, Video ad board ribbons, a state of art score board, high tech large press boxes, modern medical and rehab facilities, modern dressing rooms and training rooms with gym, a high end sound system, etc. And the ability to expand to 45 or 50 thousand seats to host a Grey Cup game or other major events. Along with partial roofs over the seating between the goal lines. Can this type of facility be built today for 100 million?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Dollar stadiums, and they are both basic CFL scale models, which Halifax needs to build as well to be a player, but why not build one even better and build it like Winnipeg's new stadium, which is 198 million.

We have no idea of who you really are, since you never give your real name. You might just be a person who is opposed to a stadium and want to discourage a stadium from being built in Halifax. You are certainly having that effect on me.

Could you provide sources for your facts? For example, links to quotations by Mark Cohon stating that Halifax must build a $200 million dollar stadium to get a CFL team. I posted one source recently in which Mark Cohon stated that the Toronto Argonauts need a more intimate stadium than the Rogers Centre. I posted one about a year ago in which a CFL league representative said that a modular $75 million dollar stadium would do for a CFL team.

It would also be helpful if you state what a bare-bones stadium is. Do you mean one with no VIP suites? I think VIP suites are needed for a CFL team but even low cost stadiums can have VIP suites or be built so that they can be added.

I will take a break from this thread for a while for the sake of all those on this forum who are tired of these debates - my apologies for the endless debates about a stadium that has no actual proposal.

[wespidel]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

We have no idea of who you really are, since you never give your real name. You might just be a person who is opposed to a stadium and want to discourage a stadium from being built in Halifax. You are certainly having that effect on me.

Could you provide sources for your facts? For example, links to quotations by Mark Cohon stating that Halifax must build a $200 million dollar stadium to get a CFL team. I posted one source recently in which Mark Cohon stated that the Toronto Argonauts need a more intimate stadium than the Rogers Centre. I posted one about a year ago in which a CFL league representative said that a modular $75 million dollar stadium would do for a CFL team.

It would also be helpful if you state what a bare-bones stadium is. Do you mean one with no VIP suites? I think VIP suites are needed for a CFL team but even low cost stadiums can have VIP suites or be built so that they can be added.

I will take a break from this thread for a while for the sake of all those on this forum who are tired of these debates - my apologies for the endless debates about a stadium that has no actual proposal.

You can find his remarks on line if you search. He said you need 200 million for a CFL.model stadium today. He probably said that because he would like to see another Winnipeg model but a 150 million stadium like Ottawa's and Hamilton's would quality as well, and have. For 70 million today you could not build a BMO model because Halifax has already proven that with their bare boned 10 to 14 permanent seat stadium. Bare boned meaning no amenities like skyboxes, no VIP lounges or club seats, no restaurants, no shops, only one concourse with permanent washrooms, no expandability between the goal lines, that is bare boned and that is what you get today for 70 million. If the Argos do end up at BMO field the stadium will have to be expanded to 25 or 30 thousand permanent seats, with additional skyboxes, VIP lounges, club seats, another concourse with permanent washrooms and concessions stands, with restaurants and shops, etc. The owner of the Argos said they would need 30 thousand permanent seats at BMO with upgrades like I suggested. I follow the CFL, and listen to every CFL radio talk show on line. I have been to many Grey Cups, and have been in every CFL stadium in Canada. If you want to actually hear Mr.Cohon say 200 million I believe he also said it in an Interview with Sportsnet during the 100th Grey Cup. I'm not opposed to a stadium or discouraging a stadium like you stated.Those are you words and Mark Cohon did not come out a say Halifax or Quebec city must build a 200 million dollar stadium like you said. Show a little more respect for me and the CFL and maybe you should get your facts right before you make your quotes.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by wespidel

and maybe you should get your facts right before you make your quotes.

Oh, I so would not be telling Fenwick to get his facts right when it comes to a stadium. We have hundreds of pages in this thread and Fenwick has been here from the beginning, and has worked harder than anyone else to make it happen.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Unless you are talking about a rail solution, you cannot fix the transit infrastructure in this town until you reconstruct our obsolete road system. You cannot do that because the EAC types that control much of the media think that improved roads are evil and our esteemed municipal politicians will not support necessary projects like the upgrading of Bayers Rd, a 3rd harbor bridge, an Arm bridge, elimination of the abominable Windsor St exchange, etc., preferring to pander for votes instead of doing what is necessary for the betterment of the city.

I actually agree with you on the overall transit issue.

We need a better investment in our existing transportation infrastructure, including better roads and crossings, as much as we need better investment in public transit infrastructure such as light rail. I actually completely agree that we need to stop playing one side off on the other with some pandering for votes saying by saying that cars/roads are evil, and others saying that other forms of transit are useless.

For me the issue is how do we pay for it? For those who think that transit subsidization is a war on cars, it is very rare that those people have an understanding that roads are massively subsidized with public dollars.

It is time that we have balanced discussion in this city about the costs of all of our transportation decisions, and how those costs should be paid.

We need new roads, and saying that isn't a war on the environment. We also need new transit options, and saying that isn't a war on cars.

However, much like transit users pay a user fee in the form of a fare to access the transit system, people are going to have to come to the realization that if you want to live in Porter's Lake or Ecum Secum and drive to downtown or Burnside to work every day than you are going to have to pay a corresponding fee (taxes or toll) to cover the cost of that infrastructure.

Both public transit and roads should be publicly subsidized, but also need a fee structure in which the load on people's wallets is preferentially born by those who require it. You want to take the bus, pay a fare proportional to cost. You want to drive on the roads, pay taxes/tolls proportional to cost.