What is your favorite suburb of your city?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by edale

3) Glendale (one of the country's first suburbs, dating back to the 1840/50s):
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2707...7i13312!8i6656
(you can see the old rail station on the right, now a 'village museum')

that's cool. thanks for the tour!

it looks like loveland saved their old station house too.

it's too bad the commuter rail operations evaporated decades ago.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Toronto is difficult because it's early 20th century footprint was much smaller than somewhere like Chicago. It has so far outgrown it's prewar framework that any places that have that streetcar suburb charm are firmly considered part of the city proper.

...

Places that are actually at a suburban distance from Downtown in the 21st century, were nothing more than tiny independent towns and villages 150 years ago. They've been swallowed up in the expansion and are surrounded by sprawl, but there are still some downtowns that maintained that charm. They all also have GO stations that serve the massive commuter rail network.

For the most part, though there was some sporadic pre-war suburban development happening along the western lakeshore; which is what gives Port Credit, Lorne Park, Oakville, Bronte, Burlington, et all a bit of that leafy Mainline railroad suburb-type vibe.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Buckman821

Wow, Toronto really seems to have annexed a lot of what would be considered run of the mill suburban fabric in Chicago or other big US metros. That block doesn't look too different than a lot of areas in Park Ridge, Elmhurst, Wilmette etc. in Chicago. Maybe the lots are just slightly smaller.

That neighborhood is essentially the Wilmette of Toronto.

Chicago had like 5.5 million people following WW2; Toronto had maybe a million, so the early Toronto suburbia is very close to the city center. It's the same phenomenon in the American Sunbelt, where very large metros like LA, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, have older suburbia extremely close to the city center, while the old-school metros, like NYC, Chicago, Philly, have the equivalent suburban form far from the center.

Westchester County, NY had 520,000 people at the onset of the Great Depression. Its housing stock is older than many city propers.

[Docere]

I find DC a good comparison to Toronto in terms of growth trajectory. Both cities were of similar size in 1940 but their metro areas grew rapidly after WWII and have a lot of new suburbia. The affluent areas of NW DC along Wisconsin/Connecticut reminds me of a less densely populated North Toronto/Yonge corridor.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by jd3189

They are. Maybe not directly for Miami, but for West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale respectively.

Not really. At least not in the same sense in how we talk about suburbs of cities in most other areas of the country.

South Florida is all suburban. It’s not like west palm and ft lauderdale, or even Miami, are urban cities. They’re all suburban.

Boca Raton a suburb of West Palm Beach? A suburb of a suburb!

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Not really. At least not in the same sense in how we talk about suburbs of cities in most other areas of the country.

South Florida is all suburban. It’s not like west palm and ft lauderdale, or even Miami, are urban cities. They’re all suburban.

Boca Raton a suburb of West Palm Beach? A suburb of a suburb!

Miami is not an urban city? That is subjective as they come.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Wow, oozing with charm. Does this town have an sort of rail transit stop?

Unfortunately, no it does not.

But, it has a dormant ROW on an active line that was taken out of service during the height of suburbanization. The same line is slowly being extended from it's current terminus and forumers are hoping that it will have active stop in the next decade or so. The current extension will get the line 2 (dormant) stops from the center of West Chester.

It is not known, but Philly has what I'd argue is probably the 2nd best suburban rail network in the country (after the NY metro).

There are tons of beautiful suburbs, ranging from streetcar suburbs to suburbs with rolling hills and preserved farmland, some of them only 30 minutes from Center City Philadelphia.

The most notable suburbs that would laude applause here are likely:

Media, Delaware County (on regional rail AND trolley) (Philly has trolley lines that extend far into the western suburbs in Delaware County, which, once they move into West Philadelphia, go underground and act as a defacto extension of the subway). https://goo.gl/maps/qoGkHQ2E1jvRQy9U6

Minutes away from Media:
Swarthmore PA (on regional rail, home to Swarthmore College)
https://goo.gl/maps/xCZq61CJGkCBQ6SZ7
https://goo.gl/maps/3oU7jX5soDZSrHos9

Most of the "villages" within Lower Merion Township:
Ardmore (regional rail, next to Haverford College)
https://goo.gl/maps/6MH5Ai4ZGLf6ZRAz6
https://goo.gl/maps/wiATZz4egMakhFp47
https://goo.gl/maps/W5G6YxtJtQvaSLaT6

Bryn Mawr (regional rail, home to Bryn Mawr and Rosemont Colleges)
https://goo.gl/maps/W5G6YxtJtQvaSLaT6
https://goo.gl/maps/eMZYQG1toZrjqoMp9

Narberth (regional rail)
https://goo.gl/maps/ypqc8U274XmUS9mv7
https://goo.gl/maps/xcVvDb33un7uWhZQ6


Wayne (regional rail, minutes from Villanova University)
https://goo.gl/maps/Gfvhf6ins82RJj4p7
https://goo.gl/maps/6fUanJ7wjz5oWRo19

Phoenixville (no rail, candidate for extension in future)
https://goo.gl/maps/DKNLXsQdZmAtXrzS8
https://goo.gl/maps/FumMtwJaRnaa3gjg9
https://goo.gl/maps/6A45EbbkB3aW5UxQ6

Kennett Square (no rail, not near rail)
https://goo.gl/maps/3xE3LamujghGua9RA
https://goo.gl/maps/94HuCbfWZD3wwfZG8

Haddonfield NJ (on rail into Philly)
https://goo.gl/maps/NLZryXbwoDCoFQQj8
https://goo.gl/maps/Vw6bHziNijSWqrEG6

Collingswood NJ (on rail into Philly)
https://goo.gl/maps/mWvUQuQU5Jp2bvHP9
https://goo.gl/maps/oMr2wD8T57T1e8FE9

I'm showing a variety of images, because many of these suburbs have their own sort of center/nuclei and then spread out into more street car suburb style then even country, all within commuting distance to Philadelphia. There are often urban/town/suburban/rural housing options within each town.

There are also streetcar suburbs wholly within the city of Philadelphia which are today neighborhoods within the city, but started out as towns and have characteristics more of independent towns with their own high streets surrounded by dense housing giving way to estates within the city. All are on regional rail but within city limits. They were the initial commuter suburbs.

They include:
Germantown (the least wealthy but probably the most historic, also experiencing a ton of renewal)
https://goo.gl/maps/AXRMYEtMPSKb9XcF7
https://goo.gl/maps/bypvNkFVh7Yhjx1dA
https://goo.gl/maps/LXGyYve3BbaAHHym8

Mt Airy (East and West)
https://goo.gl/maps/JzqyrU8Kwp6G2cqL9
https://goo.gl/maps/N3ejrmL3tD4ZJojM8
https://goo.gl/maps/xkV4WtSKyUNnF9539
https://goo.gl/maps/F5D96PbqPAUi4LvB8
https://goo.gl/maps/9LH6uFqaGFWnp7zT7


Chestnut Hill
https://goo.gl/maps/tbbwuY16xhsJhdJw8
https://goo.gl/maps/ncvyKqt48c8SZiZN9
https://goo.gl/maps/Y6ESheVGQHhQgvSHA
https://goo.gl/maps/MN9tmBpFHxcUBH7e6
https://goo.gl/maps/dZn6aEckqGjcENVR8


East Falls
https://goo.gl/maps/Ft3HBRsyLbhVmWm66
https://goo.gl/maps/2fcNUm6YkuSNkF3M6
https://goo.gl/maps/oyayo6QnAaJrHBMq5
https://goo.gl/maps/YauzX4iovaauZ13S6
https://goo.gl/maps/rzaZaBQY6AWsPpVu6
https://goo.gl/maps/jWWRP2CbNW1tqbyt8

The last one above is the childhood home of Princess Grace (of Monaco), which was just bought and restored by her son, Prince Andrew.


West Philly/Garden Court/Spruce Hill
https://goo.gl/maps/WLjbgkwd6QQvuRHK8
https://goo.gl/maps/3uqUxR2SFZfQMxJt8
https://goo.gl/maps/72qJaKkt8HF6EGd6A
https://goo.gl/maps/eXWiN9SHRYLUaPH47

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Not really. At least not in the same sense in how we talk about suburbs of cities in most other areas of the country.

South Florida is all suburban. It’s not like west palm and ft lauderdale, or even Miami, are urban cities. They’re all suburban.

Boca Raton a suburb of West Palm Beach? A suburb of a suburb!

You’re taking this urban-suburban distinction (that many people here adhere to like a religion) strangely seriously.

Not to mention, what you are saying is awfully ignorantly arrogant with not much ground to stand on.


South Florida has cities. They may not be traditional cities like you guys are used to, but they operate as cities and pretty much have much of the stuff other cities around the country have.

[pj3000]

You could get away with calling Palm Beach Gardens or Wellington or somewhere like that ‘suburbs’ of West Palm Beach, but calling Boca Raton a suburb of west Palm is just silly. If anything, it’s more of a suburb of Ft. Lauderdale (it’s significantly closer), but no one who lived there would ever say that, because it’s simply not viewed as a suburb... of either city.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Miami is not an urban city? That is subjective as they come.

No, certainly not in the same manner that older cities that developed largely pre-auto are ‘urban’. There is nothing subjective about it whatsoever. I’m just stating a fact.

Miami is suburban in its form. Even right in its core. That’s not even arguable.

And I would know from first hand experience, considering that my 1940s house here is in the downtown area (1 block from Brickell Ave) and has front and back yards and a driveway... just like all of the other houses in the neighborhood. It is not in an urban environment whatsoever, yet it is in downtown Miami.

[Centropolis]

speaking of gates and gate-places...i can only presume that when the gentrifiers come in, the chain-link comes down and the massive-black-steel-fence welders pull up in chicago. i've always thought that was strange, even coming from a historically siege-mentality type city, where that usually isn't done (in front). i don't know how many times i've been locked out of a gate in chicago, unable to knock or ring a door bell, fumbling with my phone.

https://goo.gl/maps/TKJApsT4pELqte2T7

[samne]

The City of Chicago and The City of Toronto are not comparable.

The City of Toronto is analogous to Cook County and a much better comparison. Toronto is cobbled together villages and suburbs.

You can live in Toronto and be in the suburbs (i.e. Scarborough, Etobicoke, North York). These are commonly referred to as suburbs.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

speaking of gates and gate-places...i can only presume that when the gentrifiers come in, the chain-link comes down and the massive-black-steel-fence welders pull up in chicago. i've always thought that was strange, even coming from a historically siege-mentality type city, where that usually isn't done (in front). i don't know how many times i've been locked out of a gate in chicago, unable to knock or ring a door bell, fumbling with my phone.

https://goo.gl/maps/TKJApsT4pELqte2T7

that was a Richard M. fetish.

the story goes that he was visiting some city in europe and saw a lot of black wrought iron fencing and fell in love with it, so he came back home and made a push to encourage its use everywhere to replace the unsightly chainlink of an earlier generation. and boy was he ever successful. i couldn't even begin to estimate how many thousands of miles of black wrought iron fencing were installed in chicago during his reign.

our 3-Flat was gut-rehabbed in 2000 (the height of chicago's black wrought iron fencing craze) so we have it around our building's front yard, but other than the big corner apartment building next to us, no one else on our block does. one of my plans for next summer is to talk our condo association into removing it as it serves no purpose (the gate doesn't even lock) and doesn't even fit in with the character of the neighborhood.

that said, front yard fencing isn't the default in my neck of the woods of chicago. a typical residential street near me: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9637...7i16384!8i8192

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

that was a Richard M. fetish.

the story goes that he was visiting some city in europe and saw a lot of black wrought iron fencing and fell in love with it, so he came back home and made a push to encourage its use everywhere to replace the unsightly chainlink of an earlier generation. and boy was he ever successful. i couldn't even begin to estimate how many thousands of miles of black wrought iron fencing were installed in chicago during his reign.

our 3-Flat was gut-rehabbed in 2000 (the height of chicago's black wrought iron fencing craze) so we have it around our building's front yard, but other than the big corner apartment building next to us, no one else on our block does. one of my plans for next summer is to talk our condo association into removing it as it serves no purpose and doesn't even fit in with the character of the neighborhood.

interesting. i mean waist high actual wrought-iron fencing and gates is native to the victorian midwest (much of it has been removed) but this is like 6 ft steel security fencing, so it's interesting how it evolved i guess into the further out neighborhoods in chicago. old town has more endemic-type/height fencing that you might see in 1870s-90s chicago/st. louis/cincy: https://goo.gl/maps/Nrw2EGxRbrxfkpyXA

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

interesting. i mean waist high actual wrought-iron fencing and gates is native to the victorian midwest (much of it has been removed) but this is like 6 ft steel security fencing, so it's interesting how it evolved i guess into the further out neighborhoods in chicago. old town has more endemic-type/height fencing that you might see in 1870s-90s chicago/st. louis/cincy: https://goo.gl/maps/Nrw2EGxRbrxfkpyXA

Certain parts of Toronto retain that waist high (or lower) wrought iron fencing as well - though much of it has been removed. In some areas (usually Portuguese) it's been replaced with ugly chain-link.

Original: https://goo.gl/maps/7Deez1W1FLtUKhv87
https://goo.gl/maps/WesyF6KEpShUkPWa8

Chain-link version: https://goo.gl/maps/fQQy5iLtbXtkLrLy5


The high security fencing in parts of Chicago blew my mind, and I also have gotten trapped by it. I suppose it serves a security purpose but things like burglar bars are far more effective at actually stopping someone from entering. Put a blanket over the fence and it's dead easy to get in.

Reminded me of a bit of more middle class South African suburbs where houses are surrounded by "Palisade fencing", as opposed to richer ones that have high walls. Ironically streets are a bit safer in the former as you can actually see what's going on, though the walls do provide for a very tranquil yard. Traditionally, most houses had waist high Victorian fencing, though wrought-iron was uncommon.

This shows all three varieties in one (the house on the right put palisade fencing overtop the original fence - these would have dated from the early 1900s): https://goo.gl/maps/8MdcZWiTz7qVZosC6

A rare original restoration: https://goo.gl/maps/BizgM3Z9FFu7XpEG9

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by niwell

Certain parts of Toronto retain that waist high (or lower) wrought iron fencing as well - though much of it has been removed. In some areas (usually Portuguese) it's been replaced with ugly chain-link.

Original: https://goo.gl/maps/7Deez1W1FLtUKhv87
https://goo.gl/maps/WesyF6KEpShUkPWa8

Chain-link version: https://goo.gl/maps/fQQy5iLtbXtkLrLy5


The high security fencing in parts of Chicago blew my mind, and I also have gotten trapped by it. I suppose it serves a security purpose but things like burglar bars are far more effective at actually stopping someone from entering. Put a blanket over the fence and it's dead easy to get in.

Reminded me of a bit of more middle class South African suburbs where houses are surrounded by "Palisade fencing", as opposed to richer ones that have high walls. Ironically streets are a bit safer in the former as you can actually see what's going on, though the walls do provide for a very tranquil yard. Traditionally, most houses had waist high Victorian fencing, though wrought-iron was uncommon.

This shows all three varieties in one (the house on the right put palisade fencing overtop the original fence - these would have dated from the early 1900s): https://goo.gl/maps/8MdcZWiTz7qVZosC6

A rare original restoration: https://goo.gl/maps/BizgM3Z9FFu7XpEG9

my favorite is when i get trapped inside the yard, with a locked house door behind me (leaving a friends house after they have left) and a jammed gate with no egress.

yeah, the chicago fencing reminds me of mexico of course, and i've seen that same sort of thing going around on streetview in SA.

my experience with home break-ins is 100% basement (many older homes in st. louis have steps going down to the basement in back in an obscured well) or back doors being kicked in, never forced entry in the front.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

my favorite is when i get trapped inside the yard, with a locked house door behind me (leaving a friends house after they have left) and a jammed gate with no egress.

that's odd. i've lived here for 43 years and have never been "trapped" by chicago fencing.

anyway, still looking forward to hopefully getting rid of our front yard fence next summer.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

odd. i've lived here for 43 years and have never been "trapped" by chicago fencing.

it was a particular circumstance. as i mentioned i had no way back into the house and the gate latch/lock was malfunctioning...i managed to kick it open or something.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

it was a particular circumstance. as i mentioned i had no way back into the house and the gate latch/lock was malfunctioning...i managed to kick it open or something.

oh, gotcha.

the way you we're talking made it sound like it was a regular experience for you or something, which seemed odd to me.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

my favorite is when i get trapped inside the yard, with a locked house door behind me (leaving a friends house after they have left) and a jammed gate with no egress.
.

Luckily you didn't get trapped in there with a really mean dog!

Anyhow, I don't mind the fencing. I think it looks nice