Winnipeg | 267 Sherbrook Ave | Sherbrook Flats | 5F | Completed

[Simplicity]

So it appears that it does affect Part 3 residential which looks to be a recent addition.

Here's one of those laws of unintended consequences. The value of suburban, multi-family land just increased. The new key to multi-family development will be multiple structures, under 600m, three floors,and under, and within part 9 of the code. With some nice hardie panel or EIFS on the exterior.

TV, if you could, post some class d's or c's when you get them. I'm really curious to see where this brings costs...

[Winnipeg Architect]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

^ Winnipeg Architect, can you clarify this? It's coming in a little jumbled...

Because it came "in" even worse when I copied this from the city email to me.

I cleaned it up enough.

I am quitting development now. The city has jerked me around enough the past 20 years.

Good Barry is retiring now

I had a meeting with him July 28/14 in his office to discuss how PP & D has jerked me so bad in 2014. Nothing will ever change.

Worse each year and with this destructive energy code even worse.

I am set for life anyways with my real estate holdings.

All good.

Let the others suffer now.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

So it appears that it does affect Part 3 residential which looks to be a recent addition.

Here's one of those laws of unintended consequences. The value of suburban, multi-family land just increased. The new key to multi-family development will be multiple structures, under 600m, three floors,and under, and within part 9 of the code. With some nice hardie panel or EIFS on the exterior.

TV, if you could, post some class d's or c's when you get them. I'm really curious to see where this brings costs...

An early estimate on one $12m project is something like $400k added. Still working on figuring out trade offs to get that down. Doing higher performing window cost analysis to trade against wall insulation etc.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by trueviking

An early estimate on one $12m project is something like $400k added. Still working on figuring out trade offs to get that down. Doing higher performing window cost analysis to trade against wall insulation etc.

How many square feet are we looking at?

[Winnipeg Architect]

Originally Posted by trueviking

An early estimate on one $12m project is something like $400k added. Still working on figuring out trade offs to get that down. Doing higher performing window cost analysis to trade against wall insulation etc.

Seems light with M & E included.

I have that code and the M & E is insane.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Winnipeg Architect

Seems light with M & E included.

I have that code and the M & E is insane.

Yeah, I was thinking that just over 3% seems a little to the low side.

[bomberjet]

So despite the negatives on cost, will the new codes make buildings easier to warm/cool? Or will they reduce utility costs enough to recoupe the construction costs over the life of the building? I'm not really up to speed on what the differences are with the new code. But if the answer is no to those questions and it just costs more, what's the point?

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

So despite the negatives on cost, will the new codes make buildings easier to warm/cool? Or will they reduce utility costs enough to recoupe the construction costs over the life of the building? I'm not really up to speed on what the differences are with the new code. But if the answer is no to those questions and it just costs more, what's the point?

The answer is that it's mostly irrelevant because people aren't prepared to pay for 'green' anything. They'll take the cost savings up front every time ignoring that there's a payback of sorts.

For instance, if it's a condo building, you aren't going to be able to charge a higher per-square-foot sale rate because the end user is going to achieve 'x' energy savings over time. They simply don't care. They also mostly don't believe it. So in this case - because the developer also won't pay - you end up with discounts elsewhere that cut into the overall quality of the build.

The same will go for rentals. Any increase to the efficiency of a building is meaningless to everybody because the landlord doesn't pay for heat or electricity on new builds and the tenant won't pay a higher rate than they already have to. So again, your increased costs come at the expense of overall quality.

There are no free lunches. Government can't understand this age-old concept, but forcing regulation onto one corner of the market just weakens another. If you force people to have the most energy efficient building, you're forcing the provision of a luxury item causing overall housing quality and affordability decreases. The black market ends up filling that role. That means more unregulated units going to what is now a larger subsection of the rental market because the effect of this sort of regulation is to expand the class of people requiring substandard housing while diminishing supply. You're essentially signalling to the market that energy efficiency is a more important subject than something like basic fire protection (which is achieved through registration of a rental unit). The fewer units you get, the higher your demand pressure is, the more likely you'll satisfy this demand through unregulated units.

And frankly, I couldn't care less, but these are the facts. Energy regulation is just about the least important thing in housing in Manitoba. It's the greatest example of shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic I can remember...

[Winnipeg Architect]

This code is pure garbage.

I started the week Bowman became Mayor by dropping off a package to his office among other things told him how destructive this code actually is.

I was the first of the hundreds of people lobbying his office to drop the code.

The code should be 1 line:

"energy code compliance if the building is 100% electric." End of story.

I figure the cost to be upwards of 30% more than conventional and that depends on the engineers and the architect.

Most engineers over-design by 50% safety factor nowadays. Many developers are over paying anyways because they just don't know better.

In the 1980's when energy was such a hot topic, builders built "super walls" and guess what happened? Buildings rotted within 5 years because the walls simply could not breath. There were other idiotic construction methods that destroyed structures as well. This new energy code will destroy buildings as well. Wait and see.

Simplicity knows what he is talking about.

I have built multi family starting in 2008 for $75 per square foot and downtown as of this year for $100

I know what I am doing. I am in control of everything including all the design elements. I know every square inch of what I build. Every duct, beam, cable, plumbing riser. Everything. I pay all the bills. I tender each trade. I run the job. I know each laborer by their first name. Even when I have 30 men on the site and I have 1 girl in 2011. I treat each person on my site like they are my brother. Respect and positive re-enforcement. No engineer or architect will ever dis-respect any my workers, ever.

In 1995 I did rental development for $50 a foot including land.

I am quitting development as I do not need any more government BS in my life. City of Winnipeg PP & D have been the worst and I mean top management. The zoning officials and clerical are great people.

There is no payback period with this code. They will have to re-do all the crap after it was installed anyways. No one cares anyways.

Manitoba has the lowest electrical rate in North America. Just build all electric buildings and you will not have to worry about market fluctuations. Simple.

This retarded code just makes life miserable for all. Funny thing too.........the City will not be reviewing permit submissions on the energy code. But they can do random audits before 7 years past from the permit. Maybe they do not understand it either.

[1ajs]

i would second the all eletric thing why are we using gas in manitoba

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

i would second the all eletric thing why are we using gas in manitoba

Uh, because electrical heating costs twice as much?

I have NO electrical heating appliances in my home, none. This is the best way to keep energy bills low.

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

i would second the all eletric thing why are we using gas in manitoba

Hydro is expensive compared to natural gas.

[Simplicity]

And not only is electricity twice as much, it's much cheaper up front to install electric appliances and heating systems than it is gas. Consequently, when it comes to housing, the people who can least afford it are stuck paying ridiculous electrical bills because Hydro can't manage themselves without continual increases and no developer will pay for a gas-hookup. Gas - even with it cheaper to run - is still considered a luxury.

And since nobody in the province has any hope for hydro, most of us would never even consider electric to do anything but keep the lights on and the fridge running.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by Winnipeg Architect

This code is pure garbage.

I started the week Bowman became Mayor by dropping off a package to his office among other things told him how destructive this code actually is.

I was the first of the hundreds of people lobbying his office to drop the code.

How is it that the Mayor should have a National Energy Code dropped?

In my conversations with most architects and engineers (and I have talked to quite a few lately) it didn't seem like the new code would be that big of a deal - IF you are already designing to a high standard. If designers are developing to a minimum standard they will be in for a rude awakening and a great deal of added expense.

What might happen is that new builds in Winnipeg might slow down for a year or so while the industry finds its way through the code. Where the slack will be picked up is in the renovation of the existing building stock were the new code doesn't apply. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as some of our old building stock could use a kick in the pants and too see some underused building get a new life would be good for the City.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Biff

How is it that the Mayor should have a National Energy Code dropped?

In my conversations with most architects and engineers (and I have talked to quite a few lately) it didn't seem like the new code would be that big of a deal - IF you are already designing to a high standard. If designers are developing to a minimum standard they will be in for a rude awakening and a great deal of added expense.

What might happen is that new builds in Winnipeg might slow down for a year or so while the industry finds its way through the code. Where the slack will be picked up is in the renovation of the existing building stock were the new code doesn't apply. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as some of our old building stock could use a kick in the pants and too see some underused building get a new life would be good for the City.

Sounds to me like you work somewhere within the city's planning department because this sort of tone-deaf statement can only come from an inexperienced bureaucrat. And I'm sorry to offend, but this is the sort of nonsense that leads people to believe our city is only ridding itself of a few greedy developers away from being world-class.

'Already designing to a high standard'. You can almost see the contempt dripping off that statement. The only thing that's 'designed to a high standard' in this city is institutional. And that's only because it's almost never 'their' money. The only person who could make a statement like this is somebody who doesn't know the first thing about actually developing something. I would love to know who it is in this city - as an architect or engineer - who is just so far beyond everybody else that they've managed to defy the economics of our city on their way to 'high quality builds' on budgets where the building actually has to pay for itself. I'm sure lots of people would like to know that. I know TrueViking is probably wondering just what's wrong with his approach.

You aren't going to see anybody picking up old, dilapidated stock so they can take a greater risk on a greater unknown on the small, off-chance that they can come in somewhere around the same costs as new because those costs have already proven too much as evidenced by the DRGP. All that's going to happen is you're going to get less supply. That will then be followed by a spike in the value of suburban land where it's still acceptable to build in Part 9 of the code. And then the same people who whine about a lack of affordable housing in one breath and push green initiatives in another are going to keep wondering why none of their policies work.

[Biff]

^^^ Hey, I am just relaying what what said to me. At no time was anyone crying that the sky was falling. Don't get me wrong, people are concerned with the challenges that lie ahead and the ability of clients willing to pay for any necessary increases. I have been to three separate building code change luncheons in the last month or so and talked to many in the industry about the subject and couldn't find anyone with your attitude like this will send Winnipeg back to the stone ages. My feeling is that there will be some bumps in the road but we will all come out fine in the end.

.....and I don't work for any government, Municipal, Provincial or Federal.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Biff

^^^ Hey, I am just relaying what what said to me. At no time was anyone crying that the sky was falling. Don't get me wrong, people are concerned with the challenges that lie ahead and the ability of clients willing to pay for any necessary increases. I have been to three separate building code change luncheons in the last month or so and talked to many in the industry about the subject and couldn't find anyone with your attitude like this will send Winnipeg back to the stone ages. My feeling is that there will be some bumps in the road but we will all come out fine in the end.

.....and I don't work for any government, Municipal, Provincial or Federal.

Nobody is crying that the sky is falling; especially not me because I don't see the development of Part 9 buildings in suburban subdivisions as a particularly bad thing. I'm taking umbrage at your and some uppity architects implication that anybody who is just doing their craft a disservice anyway is about to get their comeuppance because this baseless idea that quality suffers for no other reason than greed abounds through this kind of nonsense. There's no truth to it, whatsoever.

The city can't weather any further increases to costs because we've spent the last ten years catching up. And we're mostly there. Vacancy rates have normalized, availability rates indicate a somewhat over-supplied market, and the new housing market is softer than it's been in 15 years. Even in the resale market, inventories are higher than they've been in ten years and days on market across the board are up. And I don't say this because I'm trying to be bearish; I'm saying it because it's the truth. We're now on a slow-growth, steady-as-she-goes basis and that will cause prices to plateau and eventually start to slowly move back towards a healthy equilibrium. Which is what we're already seeing. So the idea that you're just going to work through code changes ignores that prices affect one's ability to do so.

I don't think it's going to send Winnipeg back to the stone ages; I think that it'll halt whatever progress we've seen. The movement will be (back) to Part 9 buildings in the suburbs because nobody is going to take the risk of an overly-regulated Part 3 building in an area that has a tenuous absorption rate.

People don't quite realize how tight the margins are between a project that can be financed and one that can't. In Winnipeg, a 5% increase in total capital cost spells the end of your project in Part 3 unless you're the developer working for free and all your consultants are taking significant haircuts. In Part 9, you're probably able to weather 7-8% if you're doing your own construction and development management and you're working without an architect. Otherwise, you can't afford that either.

[Biff]

Well I guess your right then. I appreciate some of the healthy conversations you have started here but - you obviously know "The city can't weather any further increases to costs" and "I think that it'll halt whatever progress we've seen." Pretty much doom and gloom.

Some developers will be able to make a go of it and some wont. If some cant, others will come in and fill the void. If not Winnipeg really is doomed and we will be able to look back in the history books on how the Energy Code changes in 2014 killed the City of Winnipeg just like the Panama Canal killed its progress back in the earlier parts of the 20th Century.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Biff

Well I guess your right then. I appreciate some of the healthy conversations you have started here but - you obviously know "The city can't weather any further increases to costs" and "I think that it'll halt whatever progress we've seen." Pretty much doom and gloom.

Some developers will be able to make a go of it and some wont. If some cant, others will come in and fill the void. If not Winnipeg really is doomed and we will be able to look back in the history books on how the Energy Code changes in 2014 killed the City of Winnipeg just like the Panama Canal killed its progress back in the earlier parts of the 20th Century.

There's no one thing that stops anything, and that's really my point. It's the confluence of numerous market and regulatory variables that create an unsuitable environment. If you increase regulations (ie. costs) while the market rate is decreasing (ie. price), you get an unfavourable environment. To suggest that it's going to kill development was not my point because it won't. It'll just shift the market around to something that Winnipeg can't really afford any more of. And if we're looking at things like regulations and codes, we should be looking at them on the balance instead of arbitrarily proceeding on some five year code update schedule. The province and city should be assessing the feasibility of that code within the current market environments, not just adopting it and dealing with the consequences later.

I've said before, both levels of government are continuously harping on the the affordability of housing. If they were serious about that sentiment, they would ensure things like energy efficiency didn't preclude a large subset of housing possibilities because that's the effect of increased costs. And since we can all acknowledge that these new energy regulations are not life and death through the exceptions to the code, why not suspend them until it's clear the market is willing to bear them?

There's only one way to ensure housing is affordable in both the long and short term, and that's to densify the hell out of it using wood-frame structures. This code only further hinders that development because anything over 3 stories and 600m2 can't be built feasibly.

The funny thing is that there's now a large premium on dense, mid-rise construction over single-family.

[drew]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

'Already designing to a high standard'. You can almost see the contempt dripping off that statement. The only thing that's 'designed to a high standard' in this city is institutional.

We do almost exclusively private developments, and to echo Biff's statement - BECAUSE the architects we work with already spec higher end things (like and especially like - windows) the designs we already do just about cut the mustard. The most major area of increase is for foundation insulation.

When we hear people on this forum proudly proclaiming $50 to $100 per square foot costs for construction - you can damn well be sure this isn't building a Taj Mahal. It is definitely bargain basement. That's fine. People are free to do what they do to make a buck. Same as people are free to willingly purchase or rent the end product.

People building bargain stuff is what makes up half of our fees over a year. They always use the same consultants, and the lawyers for the other side pay plenty of fees for us to come in and try to clean up their mess.