Does Western Alienation exist, and how can we fix it?

[vid]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I think PET is to blame for (re)igniting the fire of Wexit...

By the way, has Alberta even voted red federally?

The last time was 1911, they voted for Laurier, along with Quebec, Saskatchewan, and the Maritimes.

Quebec and Alberta sync up a lot, either voting for the same party or voting for regional protest parties. They both supported Social Credit in the mid-20th century, and when the PCs fell apart, they both favoured its spin-off parties.

They're so similar, I think that's why they hate each other so much. Quebec is obviously the more mature older sibling.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by flar

I grew up on the St. Clair River, watching the ships go by. The vast majority are lakers, there are a few "salties"

I think most of the ocean vessels stop at Montreal, the big ones can't fit through the canals and locks beyond.

The Seaway built in the 50's were designed for the ocean going cargo ships of the time and what was thought would be 20 years in the future. I don't think they thought there would be the massive container ships and super tankers that we see today.

[VANRIDERFAN]

So as I predicted, the whole wexit thing is losing steam and will soon fizzle out. at least on this website. I think only Corndogger and Misher are the two advocating for separation? The majority of the posters on this thread seem to be making fun of the wexit idea, which is actually not helpful.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

So as I predicted, the whole wexit thing is losing steam and will soon fizzle out. at least on this website. I think only Corndogger and Misher are the two advocating for separation? The majority of the posters on this thread seem to be making fun of the wexit idea, which is actually not helpful.

As I am the one who started this thread, my goal was to come up with meaningful things the federal government can do that is inline with their climate policy.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by someone123

How do the true multinationals measure up against the national oligopolies like the big banks, telecommunication companies, etc.? I didn't mean that Ontario has less of these than other provinces, I meant that a significant proportion of Ontario companies are geared toward serving protected national industries.

There isn't much of a geographical reason why people in British Columbia or Quebec should rely so heavily on Ontarian businesses. Or why Toronto would be a central transportation and logistics hub for the top half of North America. If Ontario were no different from the US, and just another foreign country, I don't think the economy would work that way. Ontario's economy would no doubt adjust but I am not sure why it would do a lot better than, say, Michigan, Ohio, or Illinois.

Ontario benefits from being Canada's centre hugely. In the world where Canada isn't a thing (say, it is part of the United States), a lot of Ontario simply wouldn't have happened.

I doubt the auto industry would have moved as north as it did without the incentive of having an inside track to our market. Also, the railways wouldn't have been built the way they were - why would you bother building through the Rockies and Northern Ontario muskeg if you could just build from the south to get access to the Prairies or Lower Mainland British Columbia? The financial industry would be based out of New York, Chicago or some city like that.

Ontario would be an extension of New York or Ohio. Toronto would probably be less than a million people and Ottawa wouldn't exist anywhere near the way it does today. Sure, there would be a base of a few million (3-4, maybe) simply due to the farming and mining that took place here and the local services industry needed to support those activities.

I think Ontario knows on which side of its bread is buttered - hence its lack of very polarized political leanings.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

As I am the one who started this thread, my goal was to come up with meaningful things the federal government can do that is inline with their climate policy.

I think we have a rough idea: getting out of the way any obstacle* that prevents diversification.

* Kenny and Moe may be included.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by someone123

How do the true multinationals measure up against the national oligopolies like the big banks, telecommunication companies, etc.? I didn't mean that Ontario has less of these than other provinces, I meant that a significant proportion of Ontario companies are geared toward serving protected national industries.

There isn't much of a geographical reason why people in British Columbia or Quebec should rely so heavily on Ontarian businesses. Or why Toronto would be a central transportation and logistics hub for the top half of North America. If Ontario were no different from the US, and just another foreign country, I don't think the economy would work that way. Ontario's economy would no doubt adjust but I am not sure why it would do a lot better than, say, Michigan, Ohio, or Illinois.

Originally Posted by wave46

Ontario benefits from being Canada's centre hugely. In the world where Canada isn't a thing (say, it is part of the United States), a lot of Ontario simply wouldn't have happened.

I doubt the auto industry would have moved as north as it did without the incentive of having an inside track to our market. Also, the railways wouldn't have been built the way they were - why would you bother building through the Rockies and Northern Ontario muskeg if you could just build from the south to get access to the Prairies or Lower Mainland British Columbia? The financial industry would be based out of New York, Chicago or some city like that.

Ontario would be an extension of New York or Ohio. Toronto would probably be less than a million people and Ottawa wouldn't exist anywhere near the way it does today. Sure, there would be a base of a few million (3-4, maybe) simply due to the farming and mining that took place here and the local services industry needed to support those activities.

I think Ontario knows on which side of its bread is buttered - hence its lack of very polarized political leanings.

lol you guys are priceless. Somehow I knew that the classic "you're no better than Michigan" putdown would make an appearance. All this speculating of what Ontario would be like if it were part of the US is pointless. It was never part of the US and was never going to be. It was first widely settled by people who specifically didn't want to be part of that country. And once that happened it dominated the remaining British colonies almost immediately. Was Ontario passing Nova Scotia's population around 1800 the fault of a federal government that was still several generations away from existing? Did Macdonald have a time machine?

Better let those grapes ripen for a bit, guys. They're still sour.

[misher]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

So as I predicted, the whole wexit thing is losing steam and will soon fizzle out. at least on this website. I think only Corndogger and Misher are the two advocating for separation? The majority of the posters on this thread seem to be making fun of the wexit idea, which is actually not helpful.

Not advocating more like I think the west’s concerns need to be seriously considered. I am pointing out that Wexit is possible and may be beneficial which is why the east should pay attention. And yes a bunch of people insulting and laughing at our concerns does not help.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by misher

Not advocating more like I think the west’s concerns need to be seriously considered. I am pointing out that Wexit is possible and may be beneficial which is why the east should pay attention. And yes a bunch of people insulting and laughing at our concerns does not help.

#246

Whether staying or leaving, resource hinterlands should diversify the economy. For something like tourism though, secession can possibly hurt it...

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by misher

Not advocating more like I think the west’s concerns need to be seriously considered. I am pointing out that Wexit is possible and may be beneficial which is why the east should pay attention. And yes a bunch of people insulting and laughing at our concerns does not help.

I seriously doubt that being "seriously considered", with nothing more, will mollify those looking for concrete measures.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by misher

Not advocating more like I think the west’s concerns need to be seriously considered. I am pointing out that Wexit is possible and may be beneficial which is why the east should pay attention. And yes a bunch of people insulting and laughing at our concerns does not help.

Ok, so, what are some good solutions that respect the truths of climate change and moving away from oil?

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Mister F

lol you guys are priceless. Somehow I knew that the classic "you're no better than Michigan" putdown would make an appearance. All this speculating of what Ontario would be like if it were part of the US is pointless. It was never part of the US and was never going to be. It was first widely settled by people who specifically didn't want to be part of that country. And once that happened it dominated the remaining British colonies almost immediately. Was Ontario passing Nova Scotia's population around 1800 the fault of a federal government that was still several generations away from existing? Did Macdonald have a time machine?

Better let those grapes ripen for a bit, guys. They're still sour.

Ya nk..It's like asking what if Oil and gas was never discovered in Alberta?what if that big find in Alberta didn't happen in 1949?.While speculations and alternate histories can be interesting and fun, they don't change a thing. History is in the books, and made Ontario what it is. Not 2020's Ontario's fault.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ok, so, what are some good solutions that respect the truths of climate change and moving away from oil?

To be honest, I'm not sure that there are any. Two provinces seem to have elevated oil and gas to an untouchable level at the very core of their identity. Oil is referenced in almost the same way that Americans talk about liberty, a form of energy that is inherently superior. In oil we trust. And any attempt to reduce the use of oil and gas is treated as a direct attack on the population itself, something that everyone has to band together to fight. I recently read this article and the first thing I noticed was how similar what the author is describing is to what we're hearing out of Alberta.

Trump Isn’t a Climate Denier. He’s Worse.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...drawal/601462/
No, when Trump pulls America out of the Paris Agreement, he is responding to a different ideology: carbonism. For Trump, carbonism is a powerfully economic and cultural idea. Think of the carbon in carbonism as akin to the nation in nationalism: It implies a founding myth, a powerful worldview, a theory of value, and a prophecy. But it is, at heart, a simple idea. Carbonism is a belief that fossil fuels—which send carbon pollution spewing into the atmosphere, accelerating climate change and ocean acidification—have inherent virtue.

Sound familiar?

[misher]

Originally Posted by Mister F

To be honest, I'm not sure that there are any. Two provinces seem to have elevated oil and gas to an untouchable level at the very core of their identity. Oil is referenced in almost the same way that Americans talk about liberty, a form of energy that is inherently superior. In oil we trust. And any attempt to reduce the use of oil and gas is treated as a direct attack on the population itself, something that everyone has to band together to fight. I recently read this article and the first thing I noticed was how similar what the author is describing is to what we're hearing out of Alberta.

Trump Isn’t a Climate Denier. He’s Worse.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...drawal/601462/
No, when Trump pulls America out of the Paris Agreement, he is responding to a different ideology: carbonism. For Trump, carbonism is a powerfully economic and cultural idea. Think of the carbon in carbonism as akin to the nation in nationalism: It implies a founding myth, a powerful worldview, a theory of value, and a prophecy. But it is, at heart, a simple idea. Carbonism is a belief that fossil fuels—which send carbon pollution spewing into the atmosphere, accelerating climate change and ocean acidification—have inherent virtue.

Sound familiar?

The problem I see here is you seem to feel oil must go. So we naturally feel that we’d rather leave than have you shutdown one of our biggest industries. Then you do nothing to help the climate, likely you just made it worse. So I would say why can’t you meet in the middle and give the West a climate plan they can stomach?

There are also much bigger issues though. Canada’s ranking when it comes to competitiveness has been dropping and this seems to get ignored. It’s not just oil almost all sectors are reporting that Canada is screwing itself. That’s the biggest reason why you have people in non-oil related areas of the west who are unhappy. If Canada could just fix a lot of the core issues killing our business and economy everyone would be a lot happier and we’d be more trusting that the government knows what it’s doing. We’re literally at the lowest spot we’ve ever been, while other countries have sought to improve we’ve diminished from the top 10 to 13th. With our lower dollar we should be closer to America who is #3.

https://m.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/wo...b0888f89d29261

Should a country that’s on the decline really be working to hurt its own economy? I’d prefer we gain a few rankings and be on the rise before we begin to seriously target oil. Even if you hate my guts please read the article because these are issues that hurt all Canadians that we should be paying a lot more attention to.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Razor

Ya nk..It's like asking what if Oil and gas was never discovered in Alberta?what if that big find in Alberta didn't happen in 1949?.While speculations and alternate histories can be interesting and fun, they don't change a thing. History is in the books, and made Ontario what it is. Not 2020's Ontario's fault.

This is very detached from anything anybody's posted or argued here and what you were replying to.

A few posts back swimmer_spe speculated that there would be little downside to Ontario leaving Canada in the future. I responded that I think there would be a big downside, and wave46 seems to agree. Mister F interpreted that as some kind of interprovincial pissing match, as if I am arguing that Nova Scotia or British Columbia would do better than Ontario if they split off. I never posted that or argued it.

A few posts before that wave46 referred to Ontarians as "we" so I doubt he is anti-Ontario. I'm not anti-Ontario either. I just think it's fairly obvious that it has benefited from being the primary economic centre in Canada and having the national capital. Like pretty much any "winner" region of any country on earth, like lio alluded to with the Paris comparison. The near one-to-one relationship between major economic capitals and state-like entities would be an amazing coincidence. Canada's less centralized than France or Russia or Mexico but there's still a benefit to being #1 in the country.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by misher

The problem I see here is you seem to feel oil must go. So we naturally feel that we’d rather leave than have you shutdown one of our biggest industries. Then you do nothing to help the climate, likely you just made it worse. So I would say why can’t you meet in the middle and give the West a climate plan they can stomach?

There are also much bigger issues though. Canada’s ranking when it comes to competitiveness has been dropping and this seems to get ignored. It’s not just oil almost all sectors are reporting that Canada is screwing itself. That’s the biggest reason why you have people in non-oil related areas of the west who are unhappy. If Canada could just fix a lot of the core issues killing our business and economy everyone would be a lot happier and we’d be more trusting that the government knows what it’s doing. We’re literally at the lowest spot we’ve ever been, while other countries have sought to improve we’ve diminished from the top 10 to 13th. With our lower dollar we should be closer to America who is #3.

https://m.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/wo...b0888f89d29261

Should a country that’s on the decline really be working to hurt its own economy? I’d prefer we gain a few rankings and be on the rise before we begin to seriously target oil. Even if you hate my guts please read the article because these are issues that hurt all Canadians that we should be paying a lot more attention to.

I am not suggesting we shut down the oil sands. However, the world is trying to move away from oil. Would you rather see your industry collapse due to lack of markets?

If you look at Ontario, the reason it is prospering isn't due to one industry. It is due to the fact it does not suffer from Dutch Disease. 2008 recession hurt Ontario due to it's manufacturing industries, but even during that time, it still fared well.

Alberta on the other hand is at the mercy of the OPEC decisions. OPEC decides the price of oil, not the federal government. So, what should happen? well, if your Premier had any sense, he would diversify the province so that when the markets are flooded with cheap oil, and as there is less demand for oil, Alberta does not follow what happened in Newfoundland when the cod stocks crashed.

[misher]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am not suggesting we shut down the oil sands. However, the world is trying to move away from oil. Would you rather see your industry collapse due to lack of markets?

If you look at Ontario, the reason it is prospering isn't due to one industry. It is due to the fact it does not suffer from Dutch Disease. 2008 recession hurt Ontario due to it's manufacturing industries, but even during that time, it still fared well.

Alberta on the other hand is at the mercy of the OPEC decisions. OPEC decides the price of oil, not the federal government. So, what should happen? well, if your Premier had any sense, he would diversify the province so that when the markets are flooded with cheap oil, and as there is less demand for oil, Alberta does not follow what happened in Newfoundland when the cod stocks crashed.

What’s happening to Alberta now though isn't 100% the world. Rather than receive Canada’s full support or at least ignorance Alberta is being persecuted
and it’s business hindered. It’s a lot easier to accept when it’s the world but a lot harder to accept when it’s your own government that you’ve been paying taxes to.

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by misher

What’s happening to Alberta now though isn't 100% the world. Rather than receive Canada’s full support or at least ignorance Alberta is being persecuted
and it’s business hindered. It’s a lot easier to accept when it’s the world but a lot harder to accept when it’s your own government that you’ve been paying taxes to.

Albertans being "persecuted" 😂 says the rich man in Richmond.

This just keeps getting more entertaining with each passing day.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is very detached from anything anybody's posted or argued here and what you were replying to.
.

I was just responding to the original what if Ontario became part of the U.S /extension of New York or Ohio sentiment/scenerio only.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by misher

The problem I see here is you seem to feel oil must go. So we naturally feel that we’d rather leave than have you shutdown one of our biggest industries. Then you do nothing to help the climate, likely you just made it worse. So I would say why can’t you meet in the middle and give the West a climate plan they can stomach?

There are also much bigger issues though. Canada’s ranking when it comes to competitiveness has been dropping and this seems to get ignored. It’s not just oil almost all sectors are reporting that Canada is screwing itself. That’s the biggest reason why you have people in non-oil related areas of the west who are unhappy. If Canada could just fix a lot of the core issues killing our business and economy everyone would be a lot happier and we’d be more trusting that the government knows what it’s doing. We’re literally at the lowest spot we’ve ever been, while other countries have sought to improve we’ve diminished from the top 10 to 13th. With our lower dollar we should be closer to America who is #3.

https://m.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/wo...b0888f89d29261

Should a country that’s on the decline really be working to hurt its own economy? I’d prefer we gain a few rankings and be on the rise before we begin to seriously target oil. Even if you hate my guts please read the article because these are issues that hurt all Canadians that we should be paying a lot more attention to.

I didn't say anything about shutting down the oil industry. What the world does need to do is burn a lot less oil and put less greenhouse gases into the air. That would not only reduce the impact we're having on the climate, but it would preserve the oil for the countless products and processes that rely on it and for which there are no alternatives. It's win-win. Not burning oil for fuel doesn't mean shutting down the industry, it means making it last longer.

Originally Posted by someone123

A few posts back swimmer_spe speculated that there would be little downside to Ontario leaving Canada in the future. I responded that I think there would be a big downside, and wave46 seems to agree. Mister F interpreted that as some kind of interprovincial pissing match, as if I am arguing that Nova Scotia or British Columbia would do better than Ontario if they split off. I never posted that or argued it.

I was simply responding to you and wave64 saying that Ontario is only so successful because of the federal government, and that it would just be an extension of the rust belt without it. These are pretty common claims and I decided to show you why they're an exaggeration at best. If you don't want an interprovincial pissing match, don't start one.