Doer steps down

[rypinion]

Originally Posted by grumpy old man

Some provinces don't even get transfers (the have provinces, like Alberta and now Saskatchewan and Newfoundland)...

So this comparison is okay. We're allowed to compare Manitoba to those oil rich provinces here.

Originally Posted by rypinion

I'd much rather be in Alberta with their $7 billion deficit.

Oh, but this is comparing apples to oranges apparently. Ok, sorry.

[drew]

Don't deflect now. Let's stay on task.

^ but isn't that the crux of the argument? It's fine to want to lower equalization reliance, but how are you going to replace the difference?

Cut back health services? All government related salaries? School Services?

Do you feel that we should live at a substantially lower standard of living because we don't dig up potash, drill for oil or melt tar sands? We live in a NATION, and therefore are all citizens have the right to a similar standard of living. Isn't that what equalization is for?

[vid]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

I still don't see your plan (or anyone's for that matter) o suddenly generate $2B more in revenue.

Cut programmes, of course.

[jmt18325]

I'm not deflecting...Drew has got it right.

[grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by rypinion

So this comparison is okay. We're allowed to compare Manitoba to those oil rich provinces here.

Please go back and read the whole thread. If you're gonna keep making snide comments at least try to stay focused on the thread.

[1ajs]

anyone looking at the bigger picture?? doer is doing this to make sure the centerport and the rest of that coridoor go through

look were the one province the ndp didn't fuck over the concervitis did from everything i have been able to find out about previous goveremnts and such... big reason the north gets looked at so much is theres so much poverty and screwery from the previous governemnts fucking around let it be provincial and or fedral.... the golden boy faceing north is for a reason

[grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by drew

^ but isn't that the crux of the argument? It's fine to want to lower equalization reliance, but how are you going to replace the difference?

Cut back health services? All government related salaries? School Services?

Do you feel that we should live at a substantially lower standard of living because we don't dig up potash, drill for oil or melt tar sands? We live in a NATION, and therefore are all citizens have the right to a similar standard of living. Isn't that what equalization is for?

Of course not. I'm saying we should be creating a business climate in Manitoba that will contribute those dollars to the economy through taxation. By fostering a more business friendly climate we grow existing business base and attract new business and their resultant new jobs.

I'm saying we should be working towards eliminating our need for transfer dollars and eliminate our deficit.

We're lost if the attitudes shown here are the attitudes of the majority of Manitobans.

We need to show some pride and at least try to get off the federal gravy train.

Surely that can't be a bad thing?

[grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

anyone looking at the bigger picture?? doer is doing this to make sure the centerport and the rest of that coridoor go through

How so?

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by grumpy old man

Of course not. I'm saying we should be creating a business climate in Manitoba that will contribute those dollars to the economy through taxation. By fostering a more business friendly climate we grow existing business base and attract new business and their resultant new jobs.

I'm saying we should be working towards eliminating our need for transfer dollars and eliminate our deficit.

We're lost if the attitudes shown here are the attitudes of the majority of Manitobans.

We need to show some pride and at least try to get off the federal gravy train.

Surely that can't be a bad thing?

I agree completely .... it is through developing the economy, people climb out of poverty. Incouraging people to invest there money into the Manitoba economy will go much further than building bigger and fatter government beuracracy.

We have had 10 years of NDP .. 6 Billion dollars further into debt (now 21 Billion in total) and the same poverty rates as 1989. WOW ... thanks guys.

[jmt18325]

Our debt to GDP ratio is now substantially lower. We can better afford the debt that we have. Also, our GDP per capita has gone from the mid 30's to the low 40's. That's a great deal of progress.

I get that you guys don't like him because it says NDP by his party affiliation, but he has done a great deal for this province and he is liked and respected across Canada. He's done a good job.

[drew]

Originally Posted by grumpy old man

Of course not. I'm saying we should be creating a business climate in Manitoba that will contribute those dollars to the economy through taxation. By fostering a more business friendly climate we grow existing business base and attract new business and their resultant new jobs.

I'm saying we should be working towards eliminating our need for transfer dollars and eliminate our deficit.

We're lost if the attitudes shown here are the attitudes of the majority of Manitobans.

We need to show some pride and at least try to get off the federal gravy train.

Surely that can't be a bad thing?

No it isn't. But simply paying lip service to "fostering a more friendly business climate" isn't going to do anything for us either.

I just don't think that comparing the economy in Manitoba to any of it's western neighbours is a realistic example. These provinces have used the revenue from high valued commodities to lower the taxes across the board in their respective provinces. The taxes weren't lowered before this extra revenue came in, only after the money flowed and it was possible to cut.

Even if Manitoba cut it's taxes such that they were equal, or even a little lower than AB/SK, what then? Is it realistic to assume that a couple points lower on income tax or business tax makes that big a difference? And if so, why does anyone live in MB at all right now?

Is it a realistic assumption that deep tax cuts would entice whole companies to uproot and move to Manitoba?

As it stands right now, governments try to lure businesses to their respective provinces with loans, subsidies and other incentives - and IMO it is these incentives that make the difference in enticing businesses.

[grumpy old man]

Lip service? WTF? Huh? Did you even read my post? I'm not sure how your response relates to my post.

Where did I compare Manitoba with other provinces? Where did I say deep tax cuts? Where did I say uproot and relocate?

[drew]

^ I'm just trying to get a discussion going, quit being so grumpy. The reference to other provinces is based on earlier posts referring to the economies of the other western provinces. Not you per say, but again a discussion.

Perhaps I was assuming too much into what you posted. Either way, maybe you could elaborate on how you think we are to lower our dependence on equalization?

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by drew

Even if Manitoba cut it's taxes such that they were equal, or even a little lower than AB/SK, what then? Is it realistic to assume that a couple points lower on income tax or business tax makes that big a difference? And if so, why does anyone live in MB at all right now?

Is it a realistic assumption that deep tax cuts would entice whole companies to uproot and move to Manitoba?

As it stands right now, governments try to lure businesses to their respective provinces with loans, subsidies and other incentives - and IMO it is these incentives that make the difference in enticing businesses.

Winnipeg has had a long history of lossing companies and head offices... the tax rate is not the only factor in retaining the current business base, but it sure is one of the key factors considered. In addition it is about creating a critical mass of business to create the business environment which benefits the whole on a aggregate level. On a micro level individual investors base there desisions on many fundamental factors including the rate of return and return on equity. Taxes are a direct cut on the bottom line. Cut the bottom line and those businesses become far less attractive to invest in, which is why companies look to locate in attractive tax environments. Its effects the flow of investment capital. Investment capital is a very limited resource and always locates to where it will achieve the best utility.

Overall the old status quo is just not acceptable in today's real world.

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

Our debt to GDP ratio is now substantially lower. We can better afford the debt that we have. Also, our GDP per capita has gone from the mid 30's to the low 40's. That's a great deal of progress.

I get that you guys don't like him because it says NDP by his party affiliation, but he has done a great deal for this province and he is liked and respected across Canada. He's done a good job.

What you mean to say is you want to thank Harper for boosting the transfer payments so much since he took over and has really created a realative gravy train for the "have nots". We can "better afford" that debt because we are living off our increased federal payments. Just because someone on welfare sees an increase in his payments does't mean he is any closer to being self relient.

Lets also not forget that Manitoba is living off the back of the "have provinces". If thats something you think is commendable, than you have given up on Manitoba.

The bottom line is Manitoba is far more relient on the haves than ever before, and is further in debt than it has ever been before. With all the extra transfer payments Manitoba has been recieving, it could have afford more than ever to invest in developing the stronger business environment.

Doer moved the province backwards, when he had the chance to build the economy's tax base through economic growth of private enterprise. While many economies continue to advance others continues to stand still with a cup in there hand.

[jmt18325]

Tax cuts won't create wealth. I don't know of any place where that's ever actually happened.

[grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

Tax cuts won't create wealth. I don't know of any place where that's ever actually happened.

Ummm, that's not what is being suggested.

[jmt18325]

What is a business friendly atmosphere exactly?

[vid]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

What is a business friendly atmosphere exactly?

A place where people can make as much money as they want doing whatever they want with no government restriction or regulation.

..apparently..

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

Tax cuts won't create wealth. I don't know of any place where that's ever actually happened.

Czech, Poland, Demark, Irland, Canada, Singapore, South Korea.. I could go on and on. Lets not forget Manitoba ... yes even the NDP have acknowledged this economic fact to be true.. and have lowed taxes in stimulate economic growth. Meanwhile increasing social spending is nice and fuzzy .. it really doesn't create economic growth, which results in jobs and tax base, as economic growth does.

It has been shown over and over again that lowering taxes on investment capital and increasing investment incentives attracts more investment and thus increases the wealth of those economies though increased output.

Perhaps if you would spend more time reading Nobel Prize Economic winners such as Art Laffer, instead of the wolsley socialist drivel, you be better informed on the issue.