VIA Rail

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

You are partly correct because there has not been multi frequency service in most of the west since the 1960's so when service is cut there is not much to complain about because service gradually deteriorated over time due to neglect by the railways, the government and huge investments in roads and airports. When the cuts in 1990 occurred there were complaints but people have long since given up because they have had successive federal governments that totally ignore them. The provincial governments, even those with money have not adequately funded grade separations that keep rail and automobile traffic flowing smoothly and safely. The point now is that the populous on the Prairies getting fed up with the actions and/or inactions of the federal government and we have an issue of climate change which like it or not we all contribute too, especially the resource sector in the west. It is the time to change the status quo. Improving rail service is a good way to help take care of both issues.

On that I do agree, but if JT and his team of buffoons aren't clearly hearing that from the Prairies, it's not going to get done, sadly. With all the focus on oilsands and the resource sector, the Liberals are probably going to just cave for the sake of making Albertan happy in one highly visible and specific way.

The Liberals could bring rail to Calgary, fully fund all transit projects in the province from federal coffers, and pay for retraining for geothermal or some other kind of renewable green energy but if there wasn't action on building pipelines, many Albertans would bitch and moan about how eastern Canada hates them.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

On that I do agree, but if JT and his team of buffoons aren't clearly hearing that from the Prairies, it's not going to get done, sadly. With all the focus on oilsands and the resource sector, the Liberals are probably going to just cave for the sake of making Albertan happy in one highly visible and specific way.

The Liberals could bring rail to Calgary, fully fund all transit projects in the province from federal coffers, and pay for retraining for geothermal or some other kind of renewable green energy but if there wasn't action on building pipelines, many Albertans would bitch and moan about how eastern Canada hates them.

There is some truth in that.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, let's start simple.... on time. If your plane was always hours late, ho long till that company saw their demise?

So, how can on time performance be fixed?

How to improve on-time performance in a world where passenger trains do not get priority:

1. Add more sidings, but make them shorter so passenger trains can pull over more frequently to minimize delays rather than having to wait for slow freights to travel from the next siding to current siding. Ideally they should be in-between a pair of long sidings. Shorter sidings would cost less to build and maintain and would only be of use to Via or for very short freights.

2. Every so many miles there should be a section of double track between 5 and 8 miles long where both freights and passenger trains can pass at speed if they are close together or pass one another if they are headed the same direction.

3. On trackage that does not carry a lot of freight the track quality is usually a lot poorer so passenger trains are not able to take advantage of the spare capacity to travel at a higher speed. Any track that has passenger service should have a minimum speed limit of at least 50-60 mph. An example of this is the route of the Ocean in New Brunswick which previously had a 70mph limit and now has a 30mph limit.

4. On passenger routes that have 2 or more passenger trains each way and 1-3 freight trains, Via should buy the trackage so it can have priority by controlling the dispatching of trains.

5. The provincial and federal governments should allocate more funds on an annual basis to build grade separations on all mainlines. This would improve speed and safety for both trains and vehicular traffic.

6. There should be regulations that are enforced that restrict the ability of railways to remove sections of double track without approval of the federal government.

7. When sections of double track are removed they should be the first ones in a subdivision to be re-installed before any new construction takes place. Examples of this are on the Edson and Albreda subdivisions between Edmonton and BC.

8. Passenger trains should be able to operate with a locomotive on either end so that they do not need to be turned at stations that have stub tracks or leads that are not suitable for accessing track in the direction of travel after stopping at a station.

9a. Routes should not be abandoned by carriers just so they can divert traffic from one route to another when the new route is an existing passenger route unless there is enough capacity to allow passenger trains to operate at least at their existing speed and frequency.

9b. When there is sufficient traffic to make 1 of 2 parallel routes of different railway companies economically sustainable, the railways to be forced to operate one route or a combined route as a joint venture or a limited partnership so that the route is maintained, particularly if it currently has passenger service.

An example of 9a and 9b is the abandonment of the CN and CP lines in the Ottawa Valley and the diversion traffic to a longer route via Toronto to Montreal. This lead to more congestion on the CN line and poorer on time performance for Via trains. Passenger trains were faster in the 1980s than they are now because of this. There was always sufficient traffic to keep one line open with all the freight being moved on it.

10. Where practical, all passenger lines should have some form of signalling such as block signalling, CTC or PTC especially those with higher speeds and higher frequencies.

11. Mainlines should not be used for marshalling freight cars to build a train. Railways should be required to build a yard capable for performing the work with out interference to other trains, passenger or freights.

Please feel free to add to or contest any of these proposals.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

How to improve on-time performance in a world where passenger trains do not get priority:

1. Add more sidings, but make them shorter so passenger trains can pull over more frequently to minimize delays rather than having to wait for slow freights to travel from the next siding to current siding. Ideally they should be in-between a pair of long sidings. Shorter sidings would cost less to build and maintain and would only be of use to Via or for very short freights.

2. Every so many miles there should be a section of double track between 5 and 8 miles long where both freights and passenger trains can pass at speed if they are close together or pass one another if they are headed the same direction.

3. On trackage that does not carry a lot of freight the track quality is usually a lot poorer so passenger trains are not able to take advantage of the spare capacity to travel at a higher speed. Any track that has passenger service should have a minimum speed limit of at least 50-60 mph. An example of this is the route of the Ocean in New Brunswick which previously had a 70mph limit and now has a 30mph limit.

4. On passenger routes that have 2 or more passenger trains each way and 1-3 freight trains, Via should buy the trackage so it can have priority by controlling the dispatching of trains.

5. The provincial and federal governments should allocate more funds on an annual basis to build grade separations on all mainlines. This would improve speed and safety for both trains and vehicular traffic.

6. There should be regulations that are enforced that restrict the ability of railways to remove sections of double track without approval of the federal government.

7. When sections of double track are removed they should be the first ones in a subdivision to be re-installed before any new construction takes place. Examples of this are on the Edson and Albreda subdivisions between Edmonton and BC.

8. Passenger trains should be able to operate with a locomotive on either end so that they do not need to be turned at stations that have stub tracks or leads that are not suitable for accessing track in the direction of travel after stopping at a station.

9a. Routes should not be abandoned by carriers just so they can divert traffic from one route to another when the new route is an existing passenger route unless there is enough capacity to allow passenger trains to operate at least at their existing speed and frequency.

9b. When there is sufficient traffic to make 1 of 2 parallel routes of different railway companies economically sustainable, the railways to be forced to operate one route or a combined route as a joint venture or a limited partnership so that the route is maintained, particularly if it currently has passenger service.

An example of 9a and 9b is the abandonment of the CN and CP lines in the Ottawa Valley and the diversion traffic to a longer route via Toronto to Montreal. This lead to more congestion on the CN line and poorer on time performance for Via trains. Passenger trains were faster in the 1980s than they are now because of this. There was always sufficient traffic to keep one line open with all the freight being moved on it.

10. Where practical, all passenger lines should have some form of signalling such as block signalling, CTC or PTC especially those with higher speeds and higher frequencies.

11. Mainlines should not be used for marshalling freight cars to build a train. Railways should be required to build a yard capable for performing the work with out interference to other trains, passenger or freights.

Please feel free to add to or contest any of these proposals.

A very good list. Now, how do we make any of them, even one, happen?

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

A very good list. Now, how do we make any of them, even one, happen?

The public ( that is you, me, all of us ) needs to get this matter on social media platforms that are seen as protest platforms that demand action of governments of all levels which are based on facts as available. Many current social media sites are basically travel logs which do not address the greater need of additional services/frequencies. It is difficult to obtain facts on ridership levels, realistic travel, equipment availability and costs when you are basically starting at ground zero in many parts of the country. I would like to see the Canadian Transport Commission created again. It was a more fact based entity that was forced to have public hearings on the cancellation of services than allowing the government/politicians to decide.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

A very good list. Now, how do we make any of them, even one, happen?

The public ( that is you, me, all of us ) needs to get this matter on social media platforms that are seen as protest platforms that demand action of governments of all levels which are based on facts as available. Many current social media sites are basically travel logs which do not address the greater need of additional services/frequencies. It is difficult to obtain facts on ridership levels, realistic travel, equipment availability and costs when you are basically starting at ground zero in many parts of the country.

I would like to see the Canadian Transport Commission created again. It should have authority to demand actions of the government, the railways and Via Rail. It was a more fact based entity that was forced to have public hearings on the cancellation of services than allowing the government/politicians to decide.

[J81]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

How to improve on-time performance in a world where passenger trains do not get priority:

1. Add more sidings, but make them shorter so passenger trains can pull over more frequently to minimize delays rather than having to wait for slow freights to travel from the next siding to current siding. Ideally they should be in-between a pair of long sidings. Shorter sidings would cost less to build and maintain and would only be of use to Via or for very short freights.

2. Every so many miles there should be a section of double track between 5 and 8 miles long where both freights and passenger trains can pass at speed if they are close together or pass one another if they are headed the same direction.

3. On trackage that does not carry a lot of freight the track quality is usually a lot poorer so passenger trains are not able to take advantage of the spare capacity to travel at a higher speed. Any track that has passenger service should have a minimum speed limit of at least 50-60 mph. An example of this is the route of the Ocean in New Brunswick which previously had a 70mph limit and now has a 30mph limit.

4. On passenger routes that have 2 or more passenger trains each way and 1-3 freight trains, Via should buy the trackage so it can have priority by controlling the dispatching of trains.

5. The provincial and federal governments should allocate more funds on an annual basis to build grade separations on all mainlines. This would improve speed and safety for both trains and vehicular traffic.

6. There should be regulations that are enforced that restrict the ability of railways to remove sections of double track without approval of the federal government.

7. When sections of double track are removed they should be the first ones in a subdivision to be re-installed before any new construction takes place. Examples of this are on the Edson and Albreda subdivisions between Edmonton and BC.

8. Passenger trains should be able to operate with a locomotive on either end so that they do not need to be turned at stations that have stub tracks or leads that are not suitable for accessing track in the direction of travel after stopping at a station.

9a. Routes should not be abandoned by carriers just so they can divert traffic from one route to another when the new route is an existing passenger route unless there is enough capacity to allow passenger trains to operate at least at their existing speed and frequency.

9b. When there is sufficient traffic to make 1 of 2 parallel routes of different railway companies economically sustainable, the railways to be forced to operate one route or a combined route as a joint venture or a limited partnership so that the route is maintained, particularly if it currently has passenger service.

An example of 9a and 9b is the abandonment of the CN and CP lines in the Ottawa Valley and the diversion traffic to a longer route via Toronto to Montreal. This lead to more congestion on the CN line and poorer on time performance for Via trains. Passenger trains were faster in the 1980s than they are now because of this. There was always sufficient traffic to keep one line open with all the freight being moved on it.

10. Where practical, all passenger lines should have some form of signalling such as block signalling, CTC or PTC especially those with higher speeds and higher frequencies.

11. Mainlines should not be used for marshalling freight cars to build a train. Railways should be required to build a yard capable for performing the work with out interference to other trains, passenger or freights.

Please feel free to add to or contest any of these proposals.

1- This only works if you have a few trains a day. The short 70 mile stretch that VIA owns from Ottawa to Brockville is exactly like this. Its pretty common to sit i. The siding 3 times in that stretch waiting for another VIA.

2- The longer the better.

3- Its only 30mph between Miramichi and Bathurst now. If VIA wanted to go faster theyd pay CN to fix the track. Which btw isnt in that bad a shape.

4- lets do it

5- unnecessary really except for in dense urban areas. A persons first thought when approaching an activated railway crossing should be “theres an approaching train close by” and not “screw it im too busy to wait 45 seconds”

6 and 7- agreed!!

8- they aready do in many cases

9- agreed

10- there are very few places in the country where a passenger train runs in non signalled territory. The places they do dont require it as the traffic levels dont support such an expense.

11- itll never happen. Its just not practical. There are too many lineside industries out there that require this kind of switching!

[GoTrans]

Here is another example of why transcontinental service west of Toronto does not work from Trains.com. This is why shorter regional service would be more practical and reliable.

Home/News/News Wire/VIA's 'Canadian' reaches Vancouver 27 hours late
Share your thoughts on this article10Email this article to a friendTweet this on TwitterShare this on Facebook
VIA's 'Canadian' reaches Vancouver 27 hours late
Eastbound trip's scheduled Monday afternoon departure delayed until Tuesday.
By Bob Johnston | December 23, 2019
RELATED TOPICS: PASSENGER | CANADA | VIA RAIL CANADA
Trains Industry Newsletter
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Late_Canadian_Johnston
An eastbound Canadian rolls through northern Ontario near Sioux Lookout on Oct. 15, 2018. The westbound Canadian arrived in Vancouver, British Columbia, some 27 hours late on Monday, delaying the return trip until Tuesday.
Bob Johnston
VANCOUVER, British Columbia —Mechanical issues, not Canadian National dispatching decisions, caused VIA Rail Canada’s transcontinental flagship Canadian to finally arrive at its West Coast destination at 11:10 a.m. Monday, Dec. 23, more than one day after it was supposed to get there.

The train departed Toronto on Wednesday, Dec. 18, As a result, the eastbound Canadian, which was scheduled to leave Monday afternoon at 3:00 p.m. PST is set to leave for Toronto at 8:00 a.m. Tuesday to allow for servicing.

The episode, occurring during the busy holiday period, illustrates how aging equipment on a far-flung network leaves the passenger carrier vulnerable even when attempting to operate a twice-weekly schedule.

Sources tell Trains News Wire that one of the westbound train’s locomotives became disabled near Capreol, Ontario, about 8 hours into its cross-country journey. With the only suitable substitute motive power back in Toronto, VIA made the decision to bus all 135 passengers to a hotel in nearby Sudbury for the night and most of the following day.

A VIA spokesman told Trains News Wire that the Canadian was operating 39 hours late across northern Ontario, and the crew “was ensuring the comfort and safety of all those onboard.” Interviews conducted by Toronto’s CTV News confirmed that passengers were well taken care of during the long delay. In a statement VIA said that two overheated bearings caused the breakdown, but would not elaborate. The onboard staff was recrewed at Hornepayne, Ont., with employees that would have boarded at Winnipeg.

Although the train departed Winnipeg 41 hours late, abundant recovery time helped progressively cut the margin down to 32 hours by the time it left Jasper, Alberta, at 5:03 p.m. Sunday.

Although VIA normally keeps spare equipment in Vancouver — enough to run an extra May-through-October round-trip to Edmonton, Alta., the company instead chose to delay Monday’s scheduled departure to Tuesday.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by J81

1- This only works if you have a few trains a day. The short 70 mile stretch that VIA owns from Ottawa to Brockville is exactly like this. Its pretty common to sit i. The siding 3 times in that stretch waiting for another VIA.

With exception of Edmonton to Calgary I can see regional services 3 or 4 times per day at an absolute maximum unless traffic warrants it. I would ensure that there are sidings for Via's use where Via trains are scheduled to meet as starters. Additional sidings should be added where Via and freight trains meet on a regular basis. Since freight trains are less likely to run on schedule and freight traffic fluctuates with demand the spacing of sidings is what is really preventing both freights and passenger trains from making up lost time.

Originally Posted by J81

3- Its only 30mph between Miramichi and Bathurst now. If VIA wanted to go faster theyd pay CN to fix the track. Which btw isnt in that bad a shape.

When was this improved??

Originally Posted by J81

5- unnecessary really except for in dense urban areas. A persons first thought when approaching an activated railway crossing should be “theres an approaching train close by” and not “screw it im too busy to wait 45 seconds”

It all depends on what you call urban,the highway traffic volumes and accident history. The frequent level crossing accidents in rural areas on the Edmonton - Calgary RDC run in the past was one of the main reasons for cancelling the services.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Here is another example of why transcontinental service west of Toronto does not work from Trains.com. This is why shorter regional service would be more practical and reliable.

Home/News/News Wire/VIA's 'Canadian' reaches Vancouver 27 hours late
Share your thoughts on this article10Email this article to a friendTweet this on TwitterShare this on Facebook
VIA's 'Canadian' reaches Vancouver 27 hours late
Eastbound trip's scheduled Monday afternoon departure delayed until Tuesday.
By Bob Johnston | December 23, 2019
RELATED TOPICS: PASSENGER | CANADA | VIA RAIL CANADA
Trains Industry Newsletter
Get a weekly roundup of the industry news you need.
Sign up
By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine. View our privacy policy.
Late_Canadian_Johnston
An eastbound Canadian rolls through northern Ontario near Sioux Lookout on Oct. 15, 2018. The westbound Canadian arrived in Vancouver, British Columbia, some 27 hours late on Monday, delaying the return trip until Tuesday.
Bob Johnston
VANCOUVER, British Columbia —Mechanical issues, not Canadian National dispatching decisions, caused VIA Rail Canada’s transcontinental flagship Canadian to finally arrive at its West Coast destination at 11:10 a.m. Monday, Dec. 23, more than one day after it was supposed to get there.

The train departed Toronto on Wednesday, Dec. 18, As a result, the eastbound Canadian, which was scheduled to leave Monday afternoon at 3:00 p.m. PST is set to leave for Toronto at 8:00 a.m. Tuesday to allow for servicing.

The episode, occurring during the busy holiday period, illustrates how aging equipment on a far-flung network leaves the passenger carrier vulnerable even when attempting to operate a twice-weekly schedule.

Sources tell Trains News Wire that one of the westbound train’s locomotives became disabled near Capreol, Ontario, about 8 hours into its cross-country journey. With the only suitable substitute motive power back in Toronto, VIA made the decision to bus all 135 passengers to a hotel in nearby Sudbury for the night and most of the following day.

A VIA spokesman told Trains News Wire that the Canadian was operating 39 hours late across northern Ontario, and the crew “was ensuring the comfort and safety of all those onboard.” Interviews conducted by Toronto’s CTV News confirmed that passengers were well taken care of during the long delay. In a statement VIA said that two overheated bearings caused the breakdown, but would not elaborate. The onboard staff was recrewed at Hornepayne, Ont., with employees that would have boarded at Winnipeg.

Although the train departed Winnipeg 41 hours late, abundant recovery time helped progressively cut the margin down to 32 hours by the time it left Jasper, Alberta, at 5:03 p.m. Sunday.

Although VIA normally keeps spare equipment in Vancouver — enough to run an extra May-through-October round-trip to Edmonton, Alta., the company instead chose to delay Monday’s scheduled departure to Tuesday.

It is impressive that they were able to make up so much time. CN must have had the Christmas spirit.

[J81]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It is impressive that they were able to make up so much time. CN must have had the Christmas spirit.

What it does is show how much time is built into schedules because of CN.

[J81]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

With exception of Edmonton to Calgary I can see regional services 3 or 4 times per day at an absolute maximum unless traffic warrants it. I would ensure that there are sidings for Via's use where Via trains are scheduled to meet as starters. Additional sidings should be added where Via and freight trains meet on a regular basis. Since freight trains are less likely to run on schedule and freight traffic fluctuates with demand the spacing of sidings is what is really preventing both freights and passenger trains from making up lost time.



When was this improved??

I believe its been 5 years or so now.


It all depends on what you call urban,the highway traffic volumes and accident history. The frequent level crossing accidents in rural areas on the Edmonton - Calgary RDC run in the past was one of the main reasons for cancelling the services.

Level crossing accidents happen because people are stupid. Trains cant come find you. You have to go to them. Its easy not to get hit by a train! Having said that, in an urban area like the GTA, full grade separation at many crossings is already complete in most of the busiest roads. To fully separate every crossing is just an astronomical cost that isnt justified.

Ive never heard of any service being cancelled due to crossing accidents. Its an interesting thought. Is that published anywhere?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J81

What it does is show how much time is built into schedules because of CN.

It also shows that we could have a 2 day trip Vancouver - Toronto. I don't imagine there is that much less traffic on the CN mainline this time of year. Leads me to wonder why they can do it now, but not normally?

It's about 4500km, and they we able to shave a day off. They must not have sided much and must have pushed the speed to near 100km/hr (I know everything rail is in miles.)

[J81]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It also shows that we could have a 2 day trip Vancouver - Toronto. I don't imagine there is that much less traffic on the CN mainline this time of year. Leads me to wonder why they can do it now, but not normally?

It's about 4500km, and they we able to shave a day off. They must not have sided much and must have pushed the speed to near 100km/hr (I know everything rail is in miles.)

There is actually quite a bit less traffic at CN during the holidays. Intermodal traffic slows down considerably. Also, most of the stops the Canadian makes has time built in. Lets say the scheduled stop was 10 minutes if the train was on time. They could easily pick up half that by loading and going instead of waiting the full ten minutes. Do that over the course of an entire trip and a minute here and a few minutes there adds up. Couple that with less meets with freights and actually clipping along at 80mph for long stretches makes it pretty easy to make up time.

The issue with the length of the schedules isnt due to the equipment being slower. The schedules take longer because so much time has been built in to deal with freights and GO trains. Its easy to arrive into Oshawa 20 minutes early on a westbound train if you dont get stuck behind a freight, sit there until your scheduled departure time out of Oshawa and then get stuck behind a GO train from Durham Jct to Union and arrive 20 minutes late. Its no problem to lose 30 to 40 minutes the last 35 miles of a trip.

[Dengler Avenue]

https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/train-wi...-man-1.4748604

derailment west of Portage la Prairie

[esquire]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It also shows that we could have a 2 day trip Vancouver - Toronto. I don't imagine there is that much less traffic on the CN mainline this time of year. Leads me to wonder why they can do it now, but not normally?

It's about 4500km, and they we able to shave a day off. They must not have sided much and must have pushed the speed to near 100km/hr (I know everything rail is in miles.)

The schedule is extremely padded now. According to the Wikipedia article for the train, the train takes 94 hours, 15 minutes on the westbound Toronto-Vancouver run. When the Super Continental was introduced in 1955 (more or less the same route as the current Canadian), it took 72 hours, 20 minutes on the westbound Montreal-Vancouver run. So nearly one full day longer!

[Vin]

Anyone knows when these high speed VIA trains will be running?


• Video Link

[kwoldtimer]

These are the Corridor fleet replacement trains. Delivery will begin in 2022 and be completed in 2024, iirc.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Vin

Anyone knows when these high speed VIA trains will be running?


• Video Link

The only new fleet will be going to the Corridor. Would be nice if the old Corridor fleet could be refurbished and used to add more service on other lines, but as understand it, those cars are too far gone.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by J81

1- This only works if you have a few trains a day. The short 70 mile stretch that VIA owns from Ottawa to Brockville is exactly like this. Its pretty common to sit i. The siding 3 times in that stretch waiting for another VIA.

This is also an issue between London and St. Marys. Although the tracks are owned by GEXR, there is very little freight traffic these these days and VIA has the tracks almost entirely to themselves (save for one freight customer north of Thorndale). Yet when I took that route from Toronto in August 2018, we were stopped on a siding for 10 minutes near Thorndale to wait for a Kitchener-bound VIA train.