What is it like to come home to Canada?

[MonkeyRonin]

That's long been the case; and to be sure, Canada still has plenty of qualities and metrics on which we perform better than the US - from safety, to political stability, to social mobility, to having more of a social safety net & universal healthcare.

Still, the problem is that the basic value proposition of Canada is breaking down. For most of our recent history, the deal basically worked out to something like: you get ~90% of the wealth/material quality of life (and a lower career ceiling for strivers) as the US and worse weather; but with better public services, free healthcare, cheaper education, safer cities, more stability, and a more accessible middle/upper-middle class lifestyle with less chance of falling through the cracks.

We're now falling behind on both sides of that proposition though: we're the poorest we've been relative to the US in generations; while at the same time our public services, healthcare, and social safety net are deteriorating. Free healthcare doesn't mean much when it's a struggle to actually access that care. And while our streets might still be safer than theirs, things are also a lot "edgier" here than they used to be.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Wigs

There's also safety.
Anecdotally, but Almost every Canadian I've talked to over the years that lived in America for any appreciable amount of time has brought up safety, and have said they never truly felt safe in America unlike Canada.

How many of them left the US because of their concerns about safety?

I have military buddies with children who have refused postings in the US or gone unaccompanied. However, we get the same paycheque whether we are in Canada or the US. There's some additional economic benefits. But nothing like the folks that say double their salary by moving from Canada to the US.

Again, in all these discussions, we can nitpick all of America's flaws and yet talented people are coming to a completely different conclusion every day and voting with their feet. It doesn't serve us well to stick our head in the sand and ask why that is.

[Wigs]

kool, I've been trying to mention Canada's growing tech sector as a shining light on the economy and Toronto's rise to the #3 tech market in North America.
Montréal and Vancouver should be lauded with Ottawa as well, and then burgeoning sectors in Calgary and Edmonton among other Canadian Metros.

Some forumers have shot it down by essentially saying Canada is just a branch town for American tech companies and that we only have a tech sector because we exploit immigration since America during Trump's admin made it harder for skilled workers to immigrate to Silicon Valley.

That's downplaying the quality of graduates that Waterloo, Toronto, McGill, UBC, Simon Fraser, U Alberta, Calgary, UdeM, Queen's, Western, McMaster etc that Canadian universities are pumping out.

"Talent is Toronto's little secret"
"The reasons for leaving Toronto are falling away one by one"
Meanwhile, one of the godfathers of AI, Geoffrey Hinton that was lured to Google for $44M USD has come back to Toronto to help grow the AI ecosystem in Canada with The Vector Institute.


Worthwhile short read, despite clickbait title
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ai-destination

And MaRS (Medical and Research Sciences) has grown into a large incubator of it's own in downtown Toronto, assisting over 1400+ science and tech companies.
Video outdated from October 2018 but I enjoy the walkthrough
• Video Link

Toronto-Waterloo corridor will never be Silicon Valley but if it can maintain the 3rd largest status in North America, a lot of innovation will happen here in the next couple of decades.
I foresee it, I don't know why other Canadians cannot.

Canadians are self deprecating to a fault

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Some forumers have shot it down by essentially saying Canada is just a branch town for American tech companies and that we only have a tech sector because we exploit immigration since America during Trump's admin made it harder for skilled workers to immigrate to Silicon Valley.

That's downplaying the quality of graduates that Waterloo, Toronto, McGill, UBC, Simon Fraser, U Alberta, Calgary, UdeM, Queen's, Western, McMaster etc that Canadian universities are pumping out.

We aren't downplaying talent. We are questioning opportunity for that talent. I think Canadian universities (especially the U15) produce some of the best talent in the world (though this is at risk with education funding cuts). But opportunities for the best are questionable. And all the rankings you discuss usually just talk about the size of the tech sector, not the quality of output and working conditions for those employees. These surveys see it as a net gain if we get two immigrants working paid development but lose a Waterloo trained data scientist to Boston or the Bay Area.

Originally Posted by Wigs

Worthwhile short read, despite clickbait title
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ai-destination

Great article. Let's see how long this supposed edge in AI lasts now that we're out of the largest government to government deal to develop AI (AUKUS).

Originally Posted by Wigs

And MaRS (Medical and Research Sciences) has grown into a large incubator of it's own in downtown Toronto, assisting over 1400+ science and tech companies.
Video outdated from October 2018 but I enjoy the walkthrough
• Video Link

Toronto-Waterloo corridor will never be Silicon Valley but if it can maintain the 3rd largest status in North America, a lot of innovation will happen here in the next couple of decades.
I foresee it, I don't know why other Canadians cannot.

Canadians are self deprecating to a fault

MaRS is great. I was part of a team that won a startup competition there. But our project went nowhere because scaling was impossible and we'd all have to quit our jobs and work full time on fundraising. It's not startups that Canada has a problem with. It's scaling businesses, when there's no real investment culture beyond real estate in this country.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Wigs

That's downplaying the quality of graduates that Waterloo, Toronto, McGill, UBC, Simon Fraser, U Alberta, Calgary, UdeM, Queen's, Western, McMaster etc that Canadian universities are pumping out.

Canadians are self deprecating to a fault

It's the other way around. If anything, Canadian graduates are over-represented in Silicon Valley, and make up a disproportionate share of talent down there (maybe have a visit through the City, South Bay, Seattle and SoCal to see how many Canadians have made themselves at home there working for the most innovative American companies or opening their own startups).

Silicon Valley companies are willing to shell out world beating compensation packages to attract top-shelf Canadian talent, especially graduates from UWaterloo. It's Canada that's failing to attract and retain these Canadians, who are absolutely not shy about or self-depreciating in regards to their talent.

[Acajack]

I don't think I know anyone who has moved back to Canada from the US out of a concern for personal safety. That seems to be something Canadians care about when still in Canada. If you're really concerned about that, you can just move to a safer part of the US. Often in the same metro or state.

Reasons for moving back to Canada from the US that I hear most often:

- being closer to family

- not wanting kids to have an ("ugly") American mindset

- wanting kids to grow up as francophones (for francophones)

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

How many of them left the US because of their concerns about safety?

I have military buddies with children who have refused postings in the US or gone unaccompanied. However, we get the same paycheque whether we are in Canada or the US. There's some additional economic benefits. But nothing like the folks that say double their salary by moving from Canada to the US.

Again, in all these discussions, we can nitpick all of America's flaws and yet talented people are coming to a completely different conclusion every day and voting with their feet. It doesn't serve us well to stick our head in the sand and ask why that is.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

MaRS is great. I was part of a team that won a startup competition there. But our project went nowhere because scaling was impossible and we'd all have to quit our jobs and work full time on fundraising. It's not startups that Canada has a problem with. It's scaling businesses, when there's no real investment culture beyond real estate in this country.

Sorry to hear that. Hopefully that won't be the case for many others in the near future.

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

It's the other way around. If anything, Canadian graduates are over-represented in Silicon Valley, and make up a disproportionate share of talent down there (maybe have a visit through the City, South Bay, Seattle and SoCal to see how many Canadians have made themselves at home there working for the most innovative American companies or opening their own startups).

Silicon Valley companies are willing to shell out world beating compensation packages to attract top-shelf Canadian talent, especially graduates from UWaterloo. It's Canada that's failing to attract and retain these Canadians, who are absolutely not shy about or self-depreciating in regards to their talent.

My response was to forumers like whatnext's borderline sneering attitude towards Canada's tech industry, as if the recent success was temporary and fleeting until America loosens IT foreign worker restrictions.

My ultimate point is
There's been a few articles in the past 5 years that the tide is turning. Many Canadians don't seem to realize this.

Those that made their fortune and/or cut their teeth in Silicon Valley are returning home to Canada after say 10-20 years. They're either encouraging more work from American tech firms to be done in Canada, or starting their own firms, or much more rarely becoming VCs for Canadian startups themselves.
More students are trying to see if they can make it work/start their career in Canada, before automatically fleeing to Silicon Valley immediately upon graduation.

Toronto capitalises on tech success
City’s start-up scene is maturing after years of dizzying growth
Charlie Mitchell April 28, 2023



https://www.ft.com/content/f9b97a19-...b-0ca28c6cc16e

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think I know anyone who has moved back to Canada from the US out of a concern for personal safety. That seems to be something Canadians care about when still in Canada. If you're really concerned about that, you can just move to a safer part of the US. Often in the same metro or state.

Reasons for moving back to Canada from the US that I hear most often:

- being closer to family

- not wanting kids to have an ("ugly") American mindset

- wanting kids to grow up as francophones (for francophones)

For childless Canadians who are talented and can get in, I say go for it: the US has more opportunities, better pay, and corporate America is more ambitious and innovative.

Once you want to have children - especially if you're the woman in a relationship - the US is a bad deal. Money will paper over a lot of these problems, but you need a lot of it. Depending on how many children you have, you may need more than the pay bump that America offers you.

[urbandreamer]

Meanwhile, in the real world, Caledon/King City and Mulmur areas continue to build these tasteless castle like mansions in fields across from horse farms, random hamlets full of densely packed SFH and luxury SUVs & Teslas everywhere. Essentially Kool Maudit/banker types have moved to the 905, leaving a bizarre mix of old stock Torontians and ultra wealthy but ultimately clueless newish immigrants downtown, with a shit ton of TFW/students packed into new hastily built glass condo towers.

I sometimes wonder what/how newcomers from India/China/Africa/Ukraine etc think of our Old Stock street names, history, churches and institutions? (For example, today in Elora, these SA taking selfies everywhere. I would feel weird going to some random village in India and posting selfies on Tiktok.)

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Wigs

My response was to forumers like whatnext's borderline sneering attitude towards Canada's tech industry, as if the recent success was temporary and fleeting until America loosens IT foreign worker restrictions.

My ultimate point is
There's been a few articles in the past 5 years that the tide is turning. Many Canadians don't seem to realize this.

Those that made their fortune and/or cut their teeth in Silicon Valley are returning home to Canada after say 10-20 years. They're either encouraging more work from American tech firms to be done in Canada, or starting their own firms, or much more rarely becoming VCs for Canadian startups themselves.

More students are trying to see if they can make it work/start their career in Canada, before automatically fleeing to Silicon Valley immediately upon graduation.

Toronto capitalises on tech success
City’s start-up scene is maturing after years of dizzying growth
Charlie Mitchell April 28, 2023



https://www.ft.com/content/f9b97a19-...b-0ca28c6cc16e

It's kind of great that these articles try to market Toronto as an alpha tech centre, but these articles have an agenda and obscure the reality on the ground.

As TrueNorth has alluded to, Toronto has not been able to attract Big Tech to locate some of their highest value and cutting edge tech projects here. Toronto has not been a prolific centre for tech unicorns, despite being a burgeoning tech ecosystem. There's very few homegrown Canadian companies that have scaled up, the reality is no better than Australia. It's clearly an issue where we have a lot of quantity, but a dearth of quality. On the ground this has not improved in 2023-2024.

Waterloo is often a good barometer. Overwhelmingly, students in the most prestigious CS programs are still jumping to opportunities in the Valley, and there's no detectable shift that they're choosing to stay in Canada over the US. If anything, the housing crisis up here has only reinvigorated their desire to move to the US.

Pre-COVID, there was actually much more of a concerted effort by the Toronto tech ecosystem to attract Canadian tech stars in Silicon Valley to relocate back to Toronto. The biggest draw at the time was that Toronto still had relatively reasonable housing costs relative to the Valley, despite all the other drawbacks. Given that the Valley was experiencing the peak of the RE bubble at the time, there were many programs and initiatives targeted at Canadian expats to bring them home.

With Trudeau's decision to double down on inflating the real estate super bubble during COVID, Toronto's main advantage has been ripped to shreds, and now that the RE bubble in the valley has deflated a bit, it's much harder to justify a move back to Canada. Accordingly these marketing initiatives have pretty much wound down and disappeared. Maybe Canadian boomers are in denial, but this ongoing housing super bubble has dire long-term consequences, and top talent retention is one of them.

Trudeau's tech visa giveaway bonanza is now targeted towards foreigners who need a foothold to get into the US, because it's just so much easier from Ottawa's view to run an immigration ponzi scheme. Issue is that this program is really a backdoor for IT outsourcing firms like Tata to bring in a ton of cheap IT labour doing relatively low value tech work. Another issue is that Canada is now a temporary springboard for foreign tech workers who are waiting to get their US Visas.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I foresee it, I don't know why other Canadians cannot.

I’m going to assume you never tried to launch a high-tech startup in Canada, you’d see things differently (I did just that with buddies of mine, physicists with PhDs, second worst financial decision of my life; there’s just no way to get any venture capital here, the only leverage you can get is when you want to buy more real estate. Taught me a good lesson — real estate only in Canada from now on, if I invest in startups again it’ll have to be in the US)

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by lio45

I’m going to assume you never tried to launch a high-tech startup in Canada, you’d see things differently
...
if I invest in startups again it’ll have to be in the US)

As another graduate from the "school of hard knocks" I third what you an Tn say.

When I launched my startup, we secured $6M in angel pre-seed. 3 years later we had marketable product, sales and even meetings with possible purchasers. Unfortunately we couldn't secure any furthter VC money as they felt that if we couldn't make a viable business at that point, we were doomed.

Yes Canadian uni's had/have good programs and produce smart kids. Yes there are tech jobs in Canada, but to try and compare it the major US tech nodes is a bit of a stretch. We have a few unicorns and lots of great back office shops, but we really aren't seen as a major player (yet?)

In my experience working 3 decades in tech, the one thing that hasn't changed in Canada vice the US is the appetite for risk. Whether it's financial or technical, we're just not on the same level. And to really succeed in tech, risk is the be all, end all.

[shreddog]

FWIW, Wigs I'm not trying to dump on you ... I'm as big a Canada booster as there is. the problem is if we don't focus on the foundational issues and just say everything is positive, we'll find ourselves as frogs in a lovely bath. Canada is still a great place to live ... but I honestly can't say it's the best anymore.

My last ex-pat stint was 10 years ago, and I can honestly say Canada doesn't "look the same" from the outside anymore. When one hears about Canada in any context, it's rarely in an exuberant manner - unless it's about bears and mountains

It's good you find these positive examples of what could be happening, but don't assume that it's all rosy.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I sometimes wonder what/how newcomers from India/China/Africa/Ukraine etc think of our Old Stock street names, history, churches and institutions? (For example, today in Elora, these SA taking selfies everywhere. I would feel weird going to some random village in India and posting selfies on Tiktok.)

Have you ever seen a travel-themed YouTube channel? White people showing up in random villages taking selfies is half of YouTube.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Trudeau's tech visa giveaway bonanza is now targeted towards foreigners who need a foothold to get into the US, because it's just so much easier from Ottawa's view to run an immigration ponzi scheme. Issue is that this program is really a backdoor for IT outsourcing firms like Tata to bring in a ton of cheap IT labour doing relatively low value tech work. Another issue is that Canada is now a temporary springboard for foreign tech workers who are waiting to get their US Visas.

Originally Posted by shreddog

As another graduate from the "school of hard knocks" I third what you an Tn say.

When I launched my startup, we secured $6M in angel pre-seed. 3 years later we had marketable product, sales and even meetings with possible purchasers. Unfortunately we couldn't secure any furthter VC money as they felt that if we couldn't make a viable business at that point, we were doomed.

Yes Canadian uni's had/have good programs and produce smart kids. Yes there are tech jobs in Canada, but to try and compare it the major US tech nodes is a bit of a stretch. We have a few unicorns and lots of great back office shops, but we really aren't seen as a major player (yet?)

In my experience working 3 decades in tech, the one thing that hasn't changed in Canada vice the US is the appetite for risk. Whether it's financial or technical, we're just not on the same level. And to really succeed in tech, risk is the be all, end all.

Like I said earlier, these surveys are rather poor at really assessing ground truth. Mostly because they are looking at the size of the sector rather than output or quality of life or ability to raise capital. And lastly, what nobody ever talks about is the size difference between the Valley and everybody else. It's not like the talent and capital in the valley is 10% better. More like multiples. How many of those mythical 10x engineers stay in Canada?

Something, non-techies don't realize is that quality matters a lot more than quantity in tech. It's not like manufacturing. You can't always just throw bodies and money at the problem. When you understand this, it's much more easier to understand that the current Toronto "tech boom" is a charade. Turning TO into Bangalore keeps people employed and keeps housing propped up. Far less likely to make successful unicorns like Shopify. We're probably back to startup kids running to YCombinator. And now the worst part for Canada is that there are lower cost hubs emerging as alternatives to the Valley. Boston and New York are in same time zone and cheaper than Toronto, with more access to capital.

That spate of articles from 2023 was nice. Let's see if they continue into 2025, as the cost of living crisis catches up with our talent. Every tech scene relies on two things. Talent and capital. Capital continues to be difficult (even if it's better today what the past). Talent is actually getting worse. Cost of living and low pay drives away the best and leaves us with worker drones not entrepreneurs. The best for for Canadian tech is literally the return of Trump cutting off H1s. That says it all.

[niwell]

I'm not sure I fully share the ultra-pessimistic view of our top talent shared above. It's true that there's a certain percentage that will gravitate towards places like Silicon Valley but this has always been the case (and is true globally). But if anything this seemed more pronounced in the past than today - I've known a few people who moved Stateside for tech and ultimately moved back to the greater number of well-paid opportunities here compared to a decade ago. There are a lot of backoffice jobs but those I know in cybersecurity (for instance) have no dearth of well-paid opportunity in Toronto. Ditto my friend who was on the bleeding edge of blockchain tech (even though he thinks it's mostly smoke and mirrors) and could easily land a job in SV tomorrow if he wanted. My wife works for a rather large Canadian tech company that employees talent from all over the world however the largest number are based in Toronto. They would offer a pay bump if she moved to the Bay area or NYC but it wouldn't be significant enough to offset other costs involved in that.

Also not sure why we always focus on tech. I was actually surprised to hear from a Hedge Fund manager friend who makes an obscene amount of money that in his opinion the talent here is only matched by NYC and maybe London. Neither of which are enticing enough to make the move to. He spends a significant amount of time doing work in those centres as well as Asia to manage their acquisitions.

Over the years I've known probably a dozen or so people who've moved to the US for work in various fields. I can only think of one who's stayed for good - she went to Berkeley Law and now lives in Dallas. It's not really a money thing either as they don't have kids and her partner's family is all in the US. Everyone else has moved back and doing fairly well for themselves.

The cost of living crisis is acute in Canada but we still have a LOT of people who are insulated from it. If you already own property in Toronto and work in tech or any of the FIRE industries you're probably doing fine. It's not a particularly expensive city *IF* (and this is a big if) you already have an established setup. It's getting into the market as a young person or immigrant that's increasingly difficult. I don't see the need to compete as a direct peer with Silicon Valley and the massive amount of VC funding that can be available in the US but rather focus on our strengths to alleviate things - a path we have indeed strayed from. Don't focus on the small percentage that will likely move regardless of the opportunities that are present here - SV is not a place to emulate for many, many reasons. Places like Boston (a fiendishly expensive city in every respect) and NYC are only enticing for those at a very high level of expertise and at a certain level of their career. Again, I've known enough people who have done it and found it not worthwhile given the tradeoffs.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by niwell

I'm not sure I fully share the ultra-pessimistic view of our top talent shared above. It's true that there's a certain percentage that will gravitate towards places like Silicon Valley but this has always been the case (and is true globally). But if anything this seemed more pronounced in the past than today - I've known a few people who moved Stateside for tech and ultimately moved back to the greater number of well-paid opportunities here compared to a decade ago. There are a lot of backoffice jobs but those I know in cybersecurity (for instance) have no dearth of well-paid opportunity in Toronto. Ditto my friend who was on the bleeding edge of blockchain tech (even though he thinks it's mostly smoke and mirrors) and could easily land a job in SV tomorrow if he wanted. My wife works for a rather large Canadian tech company that employees talent from all over the world however the largest number are based in Toronto. They would offer a pay bump if she moved to the Bay area or NYC but it wouldn't be significant enough to offset other costs involved in that.

Also not sure why we always focus on tech. I was actually surprised to hear from a Hedge Fund manager friend who makes an obscene amount of money that in his opinion the talent here is only matched by NYC and maybe London. Neither of which are enticing enough to make the move to. He spends a significant amount of time doing work in those centres as well as Asia to manage their acquisitions.

Over the years I've known probably a dozen or so people who've moved to the US for work in various fields. I can only think of one who's stayed for good - she went to Berkeley Law and now lives in Dallas. It's not really a money thing either as they don't have kids and her partner's family is all in the US. Everyone else has moved back and doing fairly well for themselves.

The cost of living crisis is acute in Canada but we still have a LOT of people who are insulated from it. If you already own property in Toronto and work in tech or any of the FIRE industries you're probably doing fine. It's not a particularly expensive city *IF* (and this is a big if) you already have an established setup. It's getting into the market as a young person or immigrant that's increasingly difficult. I don't see the need to compete as a direct peer with Silicon Valley and the massive amount of VC funding that can be available in the US but rather focus on our strengths to alleviate things - a path we have indeed strayed from. Don't focus on the small percentage that will likely move regardless of the opportunities that are present here - SV is not a place to emulate for many, many reasons. Places like Boston (a fiendishly expensive city in every respect) and NYC are only enticing for those at a very high level of expertise and at a certain level of their career. Again, I've known enough people who have done it and found it not worthwhile given the tradeoffs.

I agree with all of this.

Like you, I think the comparison is limited to professions in computer science, and the cost comparisons are limited to homes for purchase and, to a lesser extent, consumer goods that make up a declining share of household spending and where, frankly, the US used to be even cheaper.

Also, even though Toronto is a tougher place to live than it used to be, if you consider a job in finance, it's still a lot easier to live in Toronto than New York or London.

I have much more experience with NYC, since I "lived" there for about 6 weeks in my twenties. An apartment in a good neighbourhood, close to where the jobs are in Midtown or Lower Manhattan is astronomical and of a much lower quality than what you'll find in Toronto. Sure, you can buy cheaper places in outer New Jersey or rent cheaper apartments in the far reaches of Queens or Southern Brooklyn but these places are (a) not at all cool, and don't have any of the excitement of what we think of when we think of New York, and, (b) are so far away on public transit that riding into Manhattan takes an hour at least, and is the same as living in Mississauga or Malvern and commuting to downtown Toronto.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

I’m going to assume you never tried to launch a high-tech startup in Canada, you’d see things differently (I did just that with buddies of mine, physicists with PhDs, second worst financial decision of my life; there’s just no way to get any venture capital here, the only leverage you can get is when you want to buy more real estate. Taught me a good lesson — real estate only in Canada from now on, if I invest in startups again it’ll have to be in the US)

They are being launched all the time in Kitchener, istm.

[MonctonRad]

This isn't just an issue with computer science and engineering grads. Everyone is worried about the STEM fields (and rightfully so), but many of the best and brightest minds in Canadian medicine end up south of the border too.

The siren song is strong if you are bright, and interested in medical research or academia. It's easy to do. Many of the best residency programs are in the US. The academic and research establishment down there is strong. Some Canadians opt for US residency programs, but, even if you decide to stay home, top Canadian medical researchers and academics are frequently headhunted for top positions in US hospitals. We are losing many of our best and brightest, because, exempt for a few institutions in ON, AB & BC, the support for high quality medical research in Canadian institutions is anemic at best. And, as noted above, if a new product is developed that is potentially marketable, the ability to get venture capitalists interested is nigh on impossible. Quality Canadian medical researchers are a hot commodity in the US. We speak the same language, have comparable education and skills, and do high quality work.

And, or course, on the clinical front, Canadian physicians are highly sought after for patient care. Fun fact - there are as many physician vacancies in the US as there is physicians in all of Canada! The sucking sound from south of the border is deafening. As I mentioned before, fully 25% of my med school class now practices in the US.

[Innsertnamehere]

the worst brain drain is honestly likely medicine due to the socialized nature of it here. Government salaries simply can't compete with US private sector medical companies. Tech is still private here at least - salaries may be lower, but they can compete in the market unlike union-banded government salaries.

Anecdotally the one couple I know who moved south of the border did so as one of them has a PhD in biomedical science or something like that. They claim his salary is triple that in Michigan than it would be in Ontario.