Wpg: Chief Peguis Trail Extension

[Reignman]

Originally Posted by cllew

City of Wpg has out out a RFP for the westward extension of CPT to Brookside Blvd.

http://www.winnipeg.ca/finance/finda...r_Proposal.pdf

and the route to be studied (includes interchage / signal /roundabout locations)

http://www.winnipeg.ca/finance/finda...y_Overview.pdf

Looks great right now but I wonder how many of those diamonds will ever get built. I mean, they couldn't even put a diamond at CPT/Henderson for gods sake. But they will put them at Pipeline and Ferrier? Right..

[Reignman]

Originally Posted by JamieDavid Exchange

7 new traffic lights to be included. Must be a Winnipeg thing......

So pathetic...will look like Bishop Grandin, maybe even Lagimodiere in no time flat. Do it right or don't do it at all...I say put that money into getting the current "expressways" we have flowing better first.

[bomberjet]

Actually two signalized intersections on Chief. The rest are diamonds or parclos, I know right! Part of the study will be to determine if there are alternatives/realignments to the two signalized intersections. All rail crossings will be at grade. That's from my quick skim of the RFP. Does it say the diamonds/parclos are future or part of the initial build?

[Reignman]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Actually two signalized intersections on Chief. The rest are diamonds or parclos, I know right! Part of the study will be to determine if there are alternatives/realignments to the two signalized intersections. All rail crossings will be at grade. That's from my quick skim of the RFP. Does it say the diamonds/parclos are future or part of the initial build?

Anybody have access to the RFP for the Henderson to Lag CPT extension ? My guess is that original plan called for interchange at Lag with diamonds at Gateway and Henderson.

Also, when I see an interchange symbol combined with a traffic light symbol I take that as "temporary" traffic light with "future grade separated interchange".

[esquire]

The north Perimeter has so little traffic that it basically hasn't changed since it was built in the 1960s... same number of lanes, same type of interchanges, still some at-grade intersections.

With that being the case, I don't get why CPT is so urgently needed. Unlike Bishop Grandin which is a good 5 km from the south Perimeter and is separated by several neighbourhoods with thousands of residents in between, there is virtually nothing between CPT west and the Perimeter... the two will be barely a mile apart at their closest point, with only open fields separating them.

I don't get it... why not work out a deal with the province to have them upgrade and improve (add lanes, interchanges, etc.) their existing expressway that is only 1.5-3 km away from a proposed new road that will undoubtedly cost hundreds of millions of dollars? The CPT extension will be redundant before it's even built.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by esquire

The north Perimeter has so little traffic that it basically hasn't changed since it was built in the 1960s... same number of lanes, same type of interchanges, still some at-grade intersections.

With that being the case, I don't get why CPT is so urgently needed. Unlike Bishop Grandin which is a good 5 km from the south Perimeter and is separated by several neighbourhoods with thousands of residents in between, there is virtually nothing between CPT west and the Perimeter... the two will be barely a mile apart at their closest point, with only open fields separating them.

I don't get it... why not work out a deal with the province to have them upgrade and improve (add lanes, interchanges, etc.) their existing expressway that is only 1.5-3 km away from a proposed new road that will undoubtedly cost hundreds of millions of dollars? The CPT extension will be redundant before it's even built.

I'm far from an expert on the matter but I don't think the majority of traffic coming from the East on CPT is heading north to the Perimeter to continue their journey west, they head south and use the residential streets like Templeton, Leila, jefferson. The point of the extension is to alleviate this traffic not cause the perimeter is over used.

[bomberjet]

Actually, the north Perimeter is the busiest highway in the province.

Full map is here: http://umtig.eng.umanitoba.ca/mhtis/flowmap2012.pdf

[esquire]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Actually, the north Perimeter is the busiest highway in the province.

Maybe it's busy, but is it being used to anywhere near its capacity in the way that, say, Lagimodiere or Bishop Grandin are? I certainly don't think so. It has been fast-moving, free-flowing traffic every time that I've driven it.

Instead of forking out half a billion dollars to extend CPT, why not add another lane to the north Perimeter, build a diamond interchange to eliminate the lights at Pipeline, and leave it at that?

The whole CPT western extension project just seems like an expensive solution in search of a problem.

[Reignman]

Originally Posted by esquire

Maybe it's busy, but is it being used to anywhere near its capacity in the way that, say, Lagimodiere or Bishop Grandin are? I certainly don't think so. It has been fast-moving, free-flowing traffic every time that I've driven it.

Instead of forking out half a billion dollars to extend CPT, why not add another lane to the north Perimeter, build a diamond interchange to eliminate the lights at Pipeline, and leave it at that?

The whole CPT western extension project just seems like an expensive solution in search of a problem.

Totally agree. Hold off on CPT extension and fix our current issues first. But since they are moving ahead with CPT....do it right from the start. Forward thinking cities build the infrastructure ahead of time..so before the empty areas surrounding this new roadway fill up with residential, build these interchanges now! Don't wait like they did with Bishop. I assume a major reason why no grade separations have been built at Bishop/StAnnes and Bishop/StMarys is due to the absolute chaos closing off one of those intersections would cause. It's already terrible now, could you imagine the traffic when NB\SB had to use only one of StAnnes or StMarys, and where would Bishop traffic be re-routed to? The city has really put themselves in a bind in this case...so all I am saying is learn from the previous mistakes with Bishop and Lag and do CPT right during the initial build. But we all know Winnipeg never learns from mistakes of administrations past...

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by esquire

It has been fast-moving, free-flowing traffic every time that I've driven it.

That's because there are interchanges instead of traffic lights. The perimeter was built properly in the first place, the CPT (and Bishop) is being built the Winnipeg (wrong) way.

[rypinion]

Not that I'm necessarily against CPT and such, but I'm pretty sure that the true "forward thinking cities" today are realizing that Induced demand is a thing.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Riverman

That's because there are interchanges instead of traffic lights. The perimeter was built properly in the first place, the CPT (and Bishop) is being built the Winnipeg (wrong) way.

That's part of the reason, although anyone who has driven outside of Manitoba knows that even a full freeway with interchanges everywhere can be overwhelmed by traffic and have stop and go traffic as bad as anything you'd ever see on Lagimodiere.

It's strange to me that a costly new expressway through a relatively slow-growing part of town where there aren't major traffic issues to begin with is suddenly the city's major priority. Why not use the money to fix up some of the absolute abominations that some of the major commuting routes in this city have become? To me, the CPT money would be much better spent fixing up the brutal bottlenecks that plague Lagimodiere, Bishop Grandin, Kenaston, etc.

[jmt18325]

From that traffic count graphic, it seems the province is focusing on the wrong grade separations. It looks like Pipeline, Ste. Mary's, and Ste. Anne's should be the priorities (after Lagimodiere)

[CoryB]

One thing we need to keep in mind is that north Winnipeg, especially the areas that will benefit most from CPT, are on the high end of growth, far higher than those services by Bishop.

McPhillips and CPT are both four lane roadways and the intersection really should be planned are a parclo. The traffic on McPhillips is definitely still growing and only planning for a diamond seems extremely short sighted.

I also hope the study comes back and recommends a single grade separation that provides both Dr. Jose Rizal Way and Lelia Ave with a single access point to CPT. I also hope the city have enough foresight to require setbacks in Castlebury Meadows to allow for Dr. Jose Rizal Way to be upgraded to four lanes in the future.

I also hope the study plans for a future diamond at King Edward. Where King Edward will meet CPT is currently a low volume road however it does goes through to the Perimeter and having this in the plan from the start could support future growth in the city.

[Reignman]

Originally Posted by CoryB

One thing we need to keep in mind is that north Winnipeg, especially the areas that will benefit most from CPT, are on the high end of growth, far higher than those services by Bishop.

Not sure I agree with this...the area to the north and south along most of Bishop is full residential already with Waverley West and Sage Creek growing like crazy at both ends. Scares me to think how much worse Bishop will become when those are fully built out.

[bomberjet]

The pitch for CPT is that it's needed to support CentrePort. This includes the east extension form Lag to Perimeter. Not necessarily just for commuters. Why can't they just use the Perimeter? Maybe MIT sees the Perimeter as being the highest volume route in the Province and they don't want to add another boat load of traffic to it. Not sure if MIT really has any say or input into CPT within CoW land though. Of course, the Province will be providing funding.

I'm in agreement that it is in close proximity to the Perimeter and through a relatively undeveloped area. You have to remember though, when Bishop was built, that whole area was waaay less developed than it is today. South of CPT is basically fully built out (or will be in the next 5 years), north of CPT is pretty much empty once you get past the Main St. developments. Seems to me the next boom for development in Winnipeg, as I've said before, is the north McPhillips area. Lots of land within CoW boundaries. the last large swath of land. Similar to south Winnipeg 25 years ago.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

The pitch for CPT is that it's needed to support CentrePort.

Good Lord. Dave Wardrop should tell city council that the SW BRT is strategic infrastructure needed to support Centreport... that should bring all scrutiny to a screeching halt and cause politicians to whip out the chequebooks.

I'm not sold on the rapid development of the north side suburbs as a justification for the CPT extension. In the last 25 years, development has barely crept north at all in that area... Amber Trails has expanded a bit, and there is a bit of movement around Meadows West. It pales in comparison to what's going on in the southern and eastern parts of the city.

Besides, the proposed CPT route and the north Perimeter are much closer together than Bishop Grandin and the south Perimeter... there is much less urgency for the CPT extension as a result.

[bomberjet]

I'm just trying to think about it a bit, not defend the City for their stupid ideas.. There's precinct plans, etc going on there. Obviously there's not much movement right now compared to the south end. Sounds like there's big plans for wal-marts and the like out there in the near future. not saying a wal-mart is justification for building a freeway. But why couldn't the north end explode like the south end did after Bishop was built?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I'm just trying to think about it a bit, not defend the City for their stupid ideas.. There's precinct plans, etc going on there. Obviously there's not much movement right now compared to the south end. Sounds like there's big plans for wal-marts and the like out there in the near future. not saying a wal-mart is justification for building a freeway. But why couldn't the north end explode like the south end did after Bishop was built?

Why do we want it to? The south end is sprawling out fast, now Charleswood is set to sprawl out.

Now we're supposed to sink scarce public funds into building a highway no one needs on the north edge of town so that developers and landowners there don't miss out on the party?

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by esquire

Good Lord. Dave Wardrop should tell city council that the SW BRT is strategic infrastructure needed to support Centreport... that should bring all scrutiny to a screeching halt and cause politicians to whip out the chequebooks.

I'm not sold on the rapid development of the north side suburbs as a justification for the CPT extension. In the last 25 years, development has barely crept north at all in that area... Amber Trails has expanded a bit, and there is a bit of movement around Meadows West. It pales in comparison to what's going on in the southern and eastern parts of the city.

Besides, the proposed CPT route and the north Perimeter are much closer together than Bishop Grandin and the south Perimeter... there is much less urgency for the CPT extension as a result.

You might want to look at some of the major land holders in the North and North West area of the City. I might be mistaken, but I believe the Sharma (and extended) family holds a lot of the speculative land in this area, which could be why the area councillor is pushing for this so hard.