[San Antonio] New large scale downtown planned for Cibolo.

[Paul in S.A TX]

Originally Posted by Trae

Thanks for the explanation.

[/b]

I fail to see this.

Even another forumer mentioned, San Antonio is building more of these type of projects. There has to be at least 9 or 10 of these massive mixed use projects planned or under construction in San Antonio suburbs. I'm not talking about downtown projects, seems all cities in Texas are improving their downtowns.

[Trae]

I don't know. There are quite a few projects like those mixed-use ones going up in SA, going up in other Texas cities. They aren't as large though.

[chadpcarey]

Paul -

Put down your weapons - I come in peace! It wasn't my intention to trash or be dismissive of your post - I think that it's great that people like you are posting these things and generating (occassionally heated) discussion about urban planning in SA. I'm sure we agree on most planning-related issues; but we might disagree about some of the minutia. That said:

"Why wouldn't it work anywhere for that matter!"

My opinion (and, of course, it is just that!) as to why it won't work is based on my experience developing and/or permitting four subdivisions in Cibolo.

WHY PEOPLE BUY HOUSES IN CIBOLO - The reason Cibolo has experienced a high quantity of "growth" because it offers very cheap, cheap, cheap new single-family homes, located close to highways, and in a good school district. This, of course, is why the suburbs work (not just here, but everywhere). Schertz & Selma are virtually built-out (with respect to single-family property with I-35 access), and Cibolo is just the next submarket to the northeast, much like Windcrest was 35 years ago, Universal City 20 years ago, and Schertz 10 years ago. As you know, NU/TND projects are quite expensive to construct, and if you make housing in Cibolo more expensive, you've eliminated the main reason people move there (big houses, small prices). They'll simply go to the next submarket, where single-family housing is cheaper.

This doesn't even begin to address how you market NU housing typologies to a buyer that, for the most part, expects low-density suburban housing. Or how you expect retailers to survive in an NU town center (with higher rents and poorer visibility) when SuperTarget, CostCo, and Wal-Mart are all on I-35.

Does this mean I'm a complete cynic? I don't think so. I love NU/TND principles, and believe it offers a compelling and sustainable vision for growth in our country (something we've never been particularly concerned with, unfortunately). But you're talking about individual homebuyers who are accustomed to very cheap housing. And you're talking about shoppers who are accustomed to buying their groceries, home furnishings, hardware, etc. as cheaply as possible. And people who choose to live in places like Cibolo make that choice even though it means driving long distances in maddening traffic and living in homes devoid of character or beauty.

NU/TND could work (even in Texas!). But in Greenfield locations (like Cibolo), they’re almost always wildly expensive (Seaside, Kentlands, Celebration, Harbortown, etc.). And “wildly expensive” doesn’t have a chance in hell in Cibolo, Texas.

I believe that people concerned with "good" growth (like most people on this board) need to acknowledge that there are some planning goals that are just not realistic. In other words, it does a real disservice to the goals of NU/TND to plan something that the market won't support. I mean, did you look at those renderings? The quantity of commercial/retail/office space? The cost to construct 5-story mixed-use buildings with structured parking? You really think it's going to work in Cibolo?

I would argue for a more modest plan, mostly single-family (because that's why people want to live in Cibolo) based on TND principles, providing for adequate civic/public space, with the potential for a small amount of commercial space. That would be a step in the right direction, and would actually have a chance of working (note the success of Plum Creek just up the highway in Kyle).

Beyond the “theoretical” issues I have with this, Cibolo is not the sort of municipality that could make something this ambitious work. I won’t go into details, for reasons I hope everyone can understand, but they have a well-earned reputation as a very, very difficult place to do business.

Sorry for the verbose response, but I wanted to make sure you understood my initial (and, admittedly, flippant) response. I also think you should be commended for promoting big ideas like NU/TND. That said, I stand by my initial assessment: “pure fantasy”.

[Paul in S.A TX]

What do high end developments have to do with this subject and project?

If someone wants to live in a high end area or if they want affluent surroundings, Cibolo isn't for them.
High end developments don't have anything to do with the subject of new urbanisim. Urbanity and affluent neighborhoods are two different subjects.
You took a topic on an urban project and turned it into, "it's cheap housing!" Sorry bud but who really cares?

Please stick to the title!
San Antonio:New large scale downtown planned for Cibolo.

I don't see anything said about Cibolo is exlpoding with high end custom builder's.

There is always seems to be a forumer turning threads into nonsense!

[chadpcarey]

Paul -

You posted the title "San Antonio: New large scale downtown planned for Cibolo", and I responded with my opinion that the development described in your post wouldn't work. I don't think that commenting directly to your post is "turning it into nonsense".

It seems like you wanted to post this story, and didn't want commentary or inspection. But that's sometimes what happens on internet forums (and in real life) - people disagree. And I don't think having alternative positions expressed and articulated diminish the value of your post or this forum in general.

"If someone wants to live in a high end area or if they want affluent surroundings, Cibolo isn't for them."

We're in complete agreement. But I argued in my previous point that the plan (as shown) will only work if the development is "high end". Hence the "pure fantasy" comment.

Lastly, urbanism/urban planning issues and real estate economics are interdependent. You can't talk about one without talking about the other.

Again, I appreciate very much your thoughts and efforts regarding these issues - we can disagree civily!

Chad (a.k.a. "Bud").

[sirkingwilliam]

Chad, it's a no win when dealing with Paul. You'll come to learn this.

[arbeiter]

Originally Posted by chadpcarey

Paul -

You posted the title "San Antonio: New large scale downtown planned for Cibolo", and I responded with my opinion that the development described in your post wouldn't work. I don't think that commenting directly to your post is "turning it into nonsense".

It seems like you wanted to post this story, and didn't want commentary or inspection. But that's sometimes what happens on internet forums (and in real life) - people disagree. And I don't think having alternative positions expressed and articulated diminish the value of your post or this forum in general.

"If someone wants to live in a high end area or if they want affluent surroundings, Cibolo isn't for them."

We're in complete agreement. But I argued in my previous point that the plan (as shown) will only work if the development is "high end". Hence the "pure fantasy" comment.

Lastly, urbanism/urban planning issues and real estate economics are interdependent. You can't talk about one without talking about the other.

Again, I appreciate very much your thoughts and efforts regarding these issues - we can disagree civily!

Chad (a.k.a. "Bud").

No amount of reasoning will penetrate the helium that fills Paul's head. I think the lack of flouride in the water screwed with his equilibrium.

[Paul in S.A TX]

Originally Posted by arbeiter

No amount of reasoning will penetrate the helium that fills Paul's head. I think the lack of flouride in the water screwed with his equilibrium.

Mo nonsense, mo nonsense!

[arbeiter]

That was the point.

The reference was perhaps beyond your realm of understanding: helium is hot air, because you're full of hot air. And the fluoride was a reference to the fact that San Antonio is or was one of the only major cities to not fluoridate its water, seen as kind of backwoods.

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by arbeiter

That was the point.

The reference was perhaps beyond your realm of understanding: helium is hot air, because you're full of hot air. And the fluoride was a reference to the fact that San Antonio is or was one of the only major cities to not fluoridate its water, seen as kind of backwoods.

Way to insult the natives to make a point.

[Paul in S.A TX]

Originally Posted by arbeiter

That was the point.

The reference was perhaps beyond your realm of understanding: helium is hot air, because you're full of hot air. And the fluoride was a reference to the fact that San Antonio is or was one of the only major cities to not fluoridate its water, seen as kind of backwoods.

My realm of understanding? I understood the jeperish which was not the focus of this thread. I'm not the one blowing hot air.

Example, San Antonio water not fluoridated! More hot air blown. I guess this hot air has fried the brains of many Austin forumers, keep "Austin Weird." That slogan should mean just that! Ha Ha, Many Austin forumers are wierd alright in here. Or is it just one individual? Who knows?

Let off some steam and come back to reality! BTW, who drinks tap water anyway?
http://www.saws.org/our_water/fluoride.shtml

[arbeiter]

Originally Posted by Paul in S.A TX

My realm of understanding? I understood the jeperish which was not the focus of this thread. I'm not the one blowing hot air.

Example, San Antonio water not fluoridated! More hot air blown. I guess this hot air has fried the brains of many Austin forumers, keep "Austin Weird." That slogan should mean just that! Ha Ha, Many Austin forumers are wierd alright in here. Or is it just one individual? Who knows?

Let off some steam and come back to reality! BTW, who drinks tap water anyway!
http://www.saws.org/our_water/fluoride.shtml

That's why I said is or was

There are a lot of people with fried brains in Austin, but I'm not one of them!

[Paul in S.A TX]

I wonder which builders will build here? They don't look typical cookie cutter.

[Chicago3rd]

For such an official plan I am finding nothing on it. It looks like a pipe dream....by the time Cibilo gets their act together we will be talking about a project like this in Marion.

[sirkingwilliam]

Originally Posted by Chicago3rd

For such an official plan I am finding nothing on it. It looks like a pipe dream....by the time Cibilo gets their act together we will be talking about a project like this in Marion.

Well, it seems to be official as the Cibolo assistant city manager made mention of it. When or if it'll ever be built is unknown but at least they're trying.

[sirkingwilliam]

I hate bringing this thread back up but I found this SA Bizjournal interview from four months ago.

Cibolo beefs up its economic development efforts

Editor's Note: The City of Cibolo, northeast of San Antonio, recently established the City Economic Development Corp. The Business Journal recently asked Nancy McBeth, director of community development, to talk about the goals of the new Cibolo Community Development office.

Q. What prompted Cibolo to establish a community development division?

A. Cibolo is the fastest growing city in the fastest growing state in the nation (October 2006 U.S. Census). Cibolo projected its population at 14,400 by December 2007. In January 2007, population was already 11,400, experiencing a 20 to 25 percent growth for five years. In two years, Cibolo expects to have more than 20,000 residents. This phenomenal growth began in 2000 with the housing boom. With its access to IH-35, FM 78 and IH-10, Cibolo residents can reach local, regional and statewide jurisdictions easily. Its population includes a median age of 34 with higher than average incomes, a populace of entrepreneurs and above average educational attainment.

City Manager Todd Parton saw the need for economic development and the potential for fast growth. Before she was mayor, Jennifer Hartman spearheaded the Cibolo Land Use Master Plan, as well as Cibolo's New Town Center. Planning and economic development go hand-in-hand, but most cities separate them, creating internal battles and slowing down progress. With our hybrid division, we are a team, coordinating our efforts into a seamless transition.

To keep up with overwhelming growth, the city manager recruited me to create a new community development division in 2006. A 4-B sales tax to fund the Cibolo Economic Development Corporation (CEDC) was implemented on April 1, 2007. The Cibolo Community Development office encompasses all land-use planning and economic development. In 2006, Blue Clover was hired to create a new brand identity for Cibolo; the city's new Web site is expected to go live by mid-October.

Q. How did the development of the city's master plan fit in with the development and establishment of the community development office?

A. In 2007, the city council adopted a master plan update, including a new mixed-use development designation, defined interconnectivity, and expansion of roadway infrastructure, including an urban section of FM 1103 from IH-35 to IH-10, as well as a FM 1103 bypass. It explores several core areas of mixed-used, commercial and industrial developments, and a variety of housing. A $100-million development on IH-35 will offer plazas, hotels, offices, retail and possibly a residential component. This project is the beginning of an exciting vision for the future of Cibolo -- the gateway of what is to come.

The city's master plan focuses on the 1,000-acre new Cibolo Town Center -- a central point that partners old town with new town. It will feature natural elements, culture, open spaces, civic and cultural centers, retail, businesses, corporate headquarters, single-family homes, public structures, and plazas -- all in a walkable location adjacent to rail. We are working with the Austin-San Antonio Corridor Council for a future commuter rail along FM 78.

Q. What expectations does the city have from the master plan?

A. Cibolo hopes to bring a wide range of jobs, residents, retail businesses, industrial and corporate offices to its community through a partnership with the city, CEDC, and master and specific-use developers. The Cibolo New Town Center features a 300-acre park that will connect several sections of the city to other parks, trails and cultural activities. With our athletic population, the center will welcome these outdoor enthusiasts with activities, hotels, outdoor auditoriums, a conference center, sports and local/regional events.

Q. Other cities have well-developed EDFs. How do you plan to set your development office apart -- and compete with -- surrounding destinations?

A. Cibolo partnered with TIP Strategies to establish a Target Market Study and Economic Development Strategic Plan. The plan has an implementation guideline to identify development and business prospects by establishing non-traditional opportunities. There is a place for tradition here, but Cibolo is creating uniqueness.

Q. What are the successes the community development division has had thus far for the City of Cibolo, and how do you plan to capitalize on those?

A. In the last 12 months, Cibolo has seen a 20 percent increase in commercial development -- most in small businesses -- without any business-related incentives. Owners saw the investment that planting roots here could bring. Many mentioned they like Cibolo because we bend over backward to help them. We try to find different ways of looking at projects, becoming partners in the development.

We have found that little things make the biggest difference. A mixer in May to give business owners the opportunity to network and chat in an informal setting ended up a celebration of community. It was so well-received that we are planning the next one for late October.

[Paul in S.A TX]

I hope this one doesn't get the ax.