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  #21  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2015, 2:37 PM
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Yeah, this is a shame. Luckily most of the arable land is higher up outside of the canyon area, but a lot of unique micro-climates exist along those canyon walls...
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  #22  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2015, 10:22 PM
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i grew up there, mixed feelings

but the city of ft st john is booming, they just built a new microtel hotel, and now a new hilton hotel brand is going up and a burger king and a lot more retail space. And they are looking to open a new elementary school. And lots of houses and apartments going up when i was there in the spring.

there are also a few camps going up in the area, i think one is 2500 man camp, one is either 800 or 1400 man camp
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  #23  
Old Posted May 4, 2019, 5:35 AM
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I will put this in here since its housing for BC Hydro.

Canada's Largest Affordable Passive Housing Project
Six storey wood construction

Completed in early 2019, this 6 storey and 50 unit building is slated to become one of Canada's largest certified Passive House Building located in Fort St. John, Canada. It is also a first worldwide, as it is slated to become he Northernmost multi-storey Multifamily Building achieving the stringent international Passive House Standard.

This collaboration project between BC Hydro and BC Housing is scheduled for occupancy in early 2019 and will be home to some BC Hydro workers and their families and provide affordable rental housing to the community.







More pics at the source: https://markendc.com/multifamily-pas...GSSkHAUYb3iZ9s
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  #24  
Old Posted May 5, 2019, 5:33 PM
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The amount of flooded land is insignificant. Environmental impacts are also overblown as Site C is basically a run of river facility that leverages existing storage of the Bennett Dam. The damage is already done. That being said, the cost is completely out of range. Even at half the cost, Site C makes no sense. In inflation adjusted terms, it will cost far more than the Bennett Dam, which was a far larger project (more than 2X the capacity, 19x flooded area, 3x height, 2X width).

Last edited by Doug; May 5, 2019 at 6:20 PM.
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  #25  
Old Posted May 6, 2019, 5:10 AM
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The amount of flooded land is insignificant. Environmental impacts are also overblown as Site C is basically a run of river facility that leverages existing storage of the Bennett Dam. The damage is already done. That being said, the cost is completely out of range. Even at half the cost, Site C makes no sense. In inflation adjusted terms, it will cost far more than the Bennett Dam, which was a far larger project (more than 2X the capacity, 19x flooded area, 3x height, 2X width).
Bennett is the dam, GMS is the generating station. And no shit Site C costs more. The design phase of this project alone costs more than the entire construction of GMS. We lived in a different time
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  #26  
Old Posted May 7, 2019, 7:52 PM
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Bennett is the dam, GMS is the generating station. And no shit Site C costs more. The design phase of this project alone costs more than the entire construction of GMS. We lived in a different time
And we call it progress!

PS: I still support geothermal over Site C. Allows us to build a facility half the size so its not such a large upfront investment. Estimates have shown it would be cheaper as well.
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  #27  
Old Posted May 7, 2019, 8:52 PM
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Then why is no one building it? I don't have the answer, but if it was the magic bullet everybody says it is you'd think some progress would have been made into using it.
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  #28  
Old Posted May 7, 2019, 8:57 PM
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Then why is no one building it? I don't have the answer, but if it was the magic bullet everybody says it is you'd think some progress would have been made into using it.
Didn't a Calgary-based company get a $7 million grant from the feds a few weeks ago to do a geothermal test project?
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  #29  
Old Posted May 7, 2019, 9:10 PM
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Then why is no one building it? I don't have the answer, but if it was the magic bullet everybody says it is you'd think some progress would have been made into using it.
There are a couple of different types of geothermal systems. One is simply using the ground as a giant heat sink. That can be done almost anywhere as the ground below the frost line maintains a constant 10C temperature. Systems that use this type of shallow geothermal system are generally heat pumps that uses the refrigeration cycle by removing heat from the ground and moving it to a condenser that heats air or water. Deep geothermal actually gets you hot water or even steam, but the viability of that is wholly determined by how far down you need to drill to access that thermal energy. That's not something you can do just anywhere. That geothermal community around Okotoks uses deep geothermal so they're able to pump hot water directly out of the ground and use it as a heating medium. But if I remember correctly that was a very costly system to install which required a lot of grant money from government to make viable.
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  #30  
Old Posted May 7, 2019, 9:28 PM
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Blatchford DEC is using a one kilometre distribution piping system for first phase and is almost complete ,along with a 570 borehole geoexchange field under the future storm water retention pond. The 3 MW Energy Centre is weeks away from commissioning. This will be used in association with High efficiency heat pumps. The centre is design to triple its capacity over the next few years. You will also see a lot of solar PV used on site.

We need to look at a number of combined systems since one cannot always provide the required energy needs especially at the large scale.
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  #31  
Old Posted May 7, 2019, 10:34 PM
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There are a couple of different types of geothermal systems. One is simply using the ground as a giant heat sink. That can be done almost anywhere as the ground below the frost line maintains a constant 10C temperature. Systems that use this type of shallow geothermal system are generally heat pumps that uses the refrigeration cycle by removing heat from the ground and moving it to a condenser that heats air or water. Deep geothermal actually gets you hot water or even steam, but the viability of that is wholly determined by how far down you need to drill to access that thermal energy. That's not something you can do just anywhere. That geothermal community around Okotoks uses deep geothermal so they're able to pump hot water directly out of the ground and use it as a heating medium. But if I remember correctly that was a very costly system to install which required a lot of grant money from government to make viable.
The heat pumps you mention have been talked about in the UK in recent times as a way to achieve a goal of having no natural gas heating installed in new homes after 2025. Probably it's a fair bit easier over there though with less of a temperature differential, but we'll see from them how feasible it ends up being.

This isn't the mythical large scale geothermal electricity we hear of though. I have no idea if it actually is feasible or not, I just am skeptical given how few projects there are.
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  #32  
Old Posted May 7, 2019, 11:08 PM
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^ well there’s no such thing as geothermal electricity perse. To make electricity out of geothermal energy you need very high temperatures from the ground capable of making steam to power a turbine. That’s doable in some places but not everywhere

Heat pumps work great in places like Vancouver where the climate is mild, down there you don’t need a ground source, just air to air. So down there, coupled with the province’s hydro electricity capacity they could easily transition away from natural gas. In places like Alberta you need to get heat from somewhere ie: shallow geothermal
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  #33  
Old Posted May 8, 2019, 11:54 PM
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There are a couple of different types of geothermal systems. One is simply using the ground as a giant heat sink. That can be done almost anywhere as the ground below the frost line maintains a constant 10C temperature. Systems that use this type of shallow geothermal system are generally heat pumps that uses the refrigeration cycle by removing heat from the ground and moving it to a condenser that heats air or water. Deep geothermal actually gets you hot water or even steam, but the viability of that is wholly determined by how far down you need to drill to access that thermal energy. That's not something you can do just anywhere. That geothermal community around Okotoks uses deep geothermal so they're able to pump hot water directly out of the ground and use it as a heating medium. But if I remember correctly that was a very costly system to install which required a lot of grant money from government to make viable.
Drake landing doesn’t use geothermal as a heat source. Solar is the heat source and the roof panel heated water mixture is pumped underground for storage to use later in the evening. Governments provided about $100,000 per house subsidy for this community system so not likely to be repeated.

Shallow GT works in Alberta but the power costs to upgrade the heat is quite high so you get a big power bill each month.

Quite often, geothermal heating systems are mistakenly confused with Geyser type installations we find in countries with underground volcano activity like Iceland. The constant ground temperatures (6-8° C) we find below the frost line are not hot enough to heat your home directly, which is why you will have a geothermal heat pump inside your house. The geothermal heat pump is able to convert this 6-8°C to 40-50°C through a refrigeration process. Sounds like magic? Think of a geothermal system like a giant refrigerator. Your fridge is able to cool by extracting heat from the air inside the fridge and ‘dumping’ that heat in the back (notice how your fridge is very warm on the backside?). Even when your freezer section is already below 0° C, the refrigerant is still able to extract heat from the air. A geothermal system works based on the same scientific principles. The ground loop pipes are run into the home’s mechanical room where a geothermal heat pump with environmentally friendly refrigerant is able to extract energy from the ground loop fluid. In this extracting process, the refrigerant in the heat pump turns from liquid state into a vapor state. This refrigerant vapor is injected into a compressor, where it is compressed. The compression of the vapor drastically increases the temperature of the vapor, making it hot enough to heat your home. Through either an Air or Water heat exchanger in the heat pump, the hot vapor refrigerant is able to release its heat to your home. By extracting energy from the ground loop fluid, the temperature of the fluid drops to values typically below 0° C, making it much cooler than the surrounding ground temperature. This colder ground loop fluid is pumped back into the much warmer ground where it will absorp heat from the ground again to make the cycle complete. The neat aspect of a geothermal heat pump is that it can also work in reverse for cooling purposes. In this process, heat is extracted from the warm air inside the house and ‘dumped’ back into the much cooler ground.

https://www.thermalcreek.com/frequen...ked-questions/


https://www.dlsc.ca/
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  #34  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 2:17 PM
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Drake landing doesn’t use geothermal as a heat source. Solar is the heat source and the roof panel heated water mixture is pumped underground for storage to use later in the evening. Governments provided about $100,000 per house subsidy for this community system so not likely to be repeated.

Shallow GT works in Alberta but the power costs to upgrade the heat is quite high so you get a big power bill each month.

Quite often, geothermal heating systems are mistakenly confused with Geyser type installations we find in countries with underground volcano activity like Iceland. The constant ground temperatures (6-8° C) we find below the frost line are not hot enough to heat your home directly, which is why you will have a geothermal heat pump inside your house. The geothermal heat pump is able to convert this 6-8°C to 40-50°C through a refrigeration process. Sounds like magic? Think of a geothermal system like a giant refrigerator. Your fridge is able to cool by extracting heat from the air inside the fridge and ‘dumping’ that heat in the back (notice how your fridge is very warm on the backside?). Even when your freezer section is already below 0° C, the refrigerant is still able to extract heat from the air. A geothermal system works based on the same scientific principles. The ground loop pipes are run into the home’s mechanical room where a geothermal heat pump with environmentally friendly refrigerant is able to extract energy from the ground loop fluid. In this extracting process, the refrigerant in the heat pump turns from liquid state into a vapor state. This refrigerant vapor is injected into a compressor, where it is compressed. The compression of the vapor drastically increases the temperature of the vapor, making it hot enough to heat your home. Through either an Air or Water heat exchanger in the heat pump, the hot vapor refrigerant is able to release its heat to your home. By extracting energy from the ground loop fluid, the temperature of the fluid drops to values typically below 0° C, making it much cooler than the surrounding ground temperature. This colder ground loop fluid is pumped back into the much warmer ground where it will absorp heat from the ground again to make the cycle complete. The neat aspect of a geothermal heat pump is that it can also work in reverse for cooling purposes. In this process, heat is extracted from the warm air inside the house and ‘dumped’ back into the much cooler ground.

https://www.thermalcreek.com/frequen...ked-questions/


https://www.dlsc.ca/
Actually it's something of a hybrid it looks like. It's effectively using the ground as a heat sink to store thermal energy which it extracts to transfer heat through the condenser of the heat pump, used to effectively heat buildings when there is demand. What I'd be curious about is how much you can raise the ground temperature and how long that heat will remain. The last thermal storage project I worked on was a large storage tank buried under a building at the Edmonton airport which was designed to be cooled overnight when capacity was low and drawn out during the day when demand was high. It worked okay.. not great but okay.

The power costs you refer to are simply a factor of the size of compressor, condenser and associated specialties required for a heat pump to work in Alberta. I know they work here, our neighour has a shallow geothermal system with piping buried down underneath his slab on grade garage and a heat pump for the house. I believe he supplements heating with electric.

As I said heat pumps have their greatest potential in places like Vancouver where the climate is mild and heat from outside air can simply be transferred inside. An air-to-air heat pump. Once you get into cold climates you need to provide heat to the evaporator (Which is what the heat sink is in a shallow geothermal application) so a lot of condo buildings that use heat pumps will supplement the heat required for them to work by piping hot water from a heating boiler to the evaporators on the fan coils.

EDIT: I found some interesting information about the thermal storage system at that site. It looks like it took some time for the temperatures to get to a point where the system was effective (I actually think I remember that from the news when it first started) but over a number of years the system has reach equilibrium and is now working effectively

https://www.dlsc.ca/borehole.htm
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  #35  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 3:16 PM
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Actually it's something of a hybrid it looks like. It's effectively using the ground as a heat sink to store thermal energy which it extracts to transfer heat through the condenser of the heat pump, used to effectively heat buildings when there is demand. What I'd be curious about is how much you can raise the ground temperature and how long that heat will remain. The last thermal storage project I worked on was a large storage tank buried under a building at the Edmonton airport which was designed to be cooled overnight when capacity was low and drawn out during the day when demand was high. It worked okay.. not great but okay.

The power costs you refer to are simply a factor of the size of compressor, condenser and associated specialties required for a heat pump to work in Alberta. I know they work here, our neighour has a shallow geothermal system with piping buried down underneath his slab on grade garage and a heat pump for the house. I believe he supplements heating with electric.

As I said heat pumps have their greatest potential in places like Vancouver where the climate is mild and heat from outside air can simply be transferred inside. An air-to-air heat pump. Once you get into cold climates you need to provide heat to the evaporator (Which is what the heat sink is in a shallow geothermal application) so a lot of condo buildings that use heat pumps will supplement the heat required for them to work by piping hot water from a heating boiler to the evaporators on the fan coils.

EDIT: I found some interesting information about the thermal storage system at that site. It looks like it took some time for the temperatures to get to a point where the system was effective (I actually think I remember that from the news when it first started) but over a number of years the system has reach equilibrium and is now working effectively

https://www.dlsc.ca/borehole.htm
Looks like a similar system out at Blatchford.
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  #36  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 3:45 PM
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^ well there’s no such thing as geothermal electricity perse. To make electricity out of geothermal energy you need very high temperatures from the ground capable of making steam to power a turbine. That’s doable in some places but not everywhere

Heat pumps work great in places like Vancouver where the climate is mild, down there you don’t need a ground source, just air to air. So down there, coupled with the province’s hydro electricity capacity they could easily transition away from natural gas. In places like Alberta you need to get heat from somewhere ie: shallow geothermal
The way that conversations go, I would be fooled into thinking that there is some vast source of geothermal electricity out there just waiting to be tapped.

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Actually it's something of a hybrid it looks like. It's effectively using the ground as a heat sink to store thermal energy which it extracts to transfer heat through the condenser of the heat pump, used to effectively heat buildings when there is demand. What I'd be curious about is how much you can raise the ground temperature and how long that heat will remain. The last thermal storage project I worked on was a large storage tank buried under a building at the Edmonton airport which was designed to be cooled overnight when capacity was low and drawn out during the day when demand was high. It worked okay.. not great but okay.

The power costs you refer to are simply a factor of the size of compressor, condenser and associated specialties required for a heat pump to work in Alberta. I know they work here, our neighour has a shallow geothermal system with piping buried down underneath his slab on grade garage and a heat pump for the house. I believe he supplements heating with electric.

As I said heat pumps have their greatest potential in places like Vancouver where the climate is mild and heat from outside air can simply be transferred inside. An air-to-air heat pump. Once you get into cold climates you need to provide heat to the evaporator (Which is what the heat sink is in a shallow geothermal application) so a lot of condo buildings that use heat pumps will supplement the heat required for them to work by piping hot water from a heating boiler to the evaporators on the fan coils.

EDIT: I found some interesting information about the thermal storage system at that site. It looks like it took some time for the temperatures to get to a point where the system was effective (I actually think I remember that from the news when it first started) but over a number of years the system has reach equilibrium and is now working effectively

https://www.dlsc.ca/borehole.htm
Very interesting - thanks!

I'm fairly skeptical that 'community' type heating sources like that one will ever provide a meaningful contribution in Alberta. We just don't have the socialisty attitude neccesary that any builders would have to possess to implement it in new communities. And retrofitting old communities I guess would be near impossible.

Is there much information on the economics of this?

Also - how does the glycol get to 80C? The sun can't possibly heat it up that much, can it?
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  #37  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 5:40 PM
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The way that conversations go, I would be fooled into thinking that there is some vast source of geothermal electricity out there just waiting to be tapped.



Very interesting - thanks!

I'm fairly skeptical that 'community' type heating sources like that one will ever provide a meaningful contribution in Alberta. We just don't have the socialisty attitude neccesary that any builders would have to possess to implement it in new communities. And retrofitting old communities I guess would be near impossible.

Is there much information on the economics of this?

Also - how does the glycol get to 80C? The sun can't possibly heat it up that much, can it?
As Airboy noted a similar project is currently under construction for the old city centre airport land here in Edmonton. I can't speak to the economics, I guess it'll all depend on how many people are willing to buy into that community and at what cost. It's certainly ambitious but not unheard-of. Definitely challenges retrofitting existing neighborhoods as it'd require both the installation of the infrastructure and retrofit of the heating systems in each individual home. I don't think it'd be viable to try this.

No problem getting fluid that hot in solar collectors though. they're different than solar panels in that they concentrate solar radiation and focus that energy to heat fluid. You can get crazy hot water out of a solar collector if it's positioned right and it's sunny out.
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  #38  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 5:47 PM
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As Airboy noted a similar project is currently under construction for the old city centre airport land here in Edmonton. I can't speak to the economics, I guess it'll all depend on how many people are willing to buy into that community and at what cost. It's certainly ambitious but not unheard-of. Definitely challenges retrofitting existing neighborhoods as it'd require both the installation of the infrastructure and retrofit of the heating systems in each individual home. I don't think it'd be viable to try this.

No problem getting fluid that hot in solar collectors though. they're different than solar panels in that they concentrate solar radiation and focus that energy to heat fluid. You can get crazy hot water out of a solar collector if it's positioned right and it's sunny out.
There is a fluid solar collector on the Edmonton Airport for the SETE. I remember being in the service tunnels and putting my hand on one of the lines. Quite hot even on a cloudy day. Its a small system for domestic water use.

As for Blatchford DEC there are going to be solar collectors on the plant building to offset the cost of operating the pumps
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  #39  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 5:57 PM
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^ I actually built a prototype solar collector when I still lived in my other place based on plans I got off the internet. The idea was to use it to heat the garage by passing fluid through the collector and then through small fan coil unit that I had scrounged from somewhere. It actually worked insanely well in the late summer when I first built it but its efficacy dropped as the temperature outside went down. But I think that was the result of it being a fairly rudimentary prototype and quite small, and not insulated. But I did prove that it worked. I always intended to build a larger permanent one but never got around to it. I still have all the concave polished stainless, plexi and black ABS pipe sitting in the garage at the new house. I doubt I'd be allowed to put it on the roof though
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  #40  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 6:00 PM
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As Airboy noted a similar project is currently under construction for the old city centre airport land here in Edmonton. I can't speak to the economics, I guess it'll all depend on how many people are willing to buy into that community and at what cost. It's certainly ambitious but not unheard-of. Definitely challenges retrofitting existing neighborhoods as it'd require both the installation of the infrastructure and retrofit of the heating systems in each individual home. I don't think it'd be viable to try this.

No problem getting fluid that hot in solar collectors though. they're different than solar panels in that they concentrate solar radiation and focus that energy to heat fluid. You can get crazy hot water out of a solar collector if it's positioned right and it's sunny out.
Interesting. Seems like a no brainer if they can make it cost competitive.
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