Lamenting the decline of the car

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Practically read the fear in this post. "I really hope this doesn't happen."

Your processing of this discussion seems really strange to me. What fear? What's to be afraid of? I don't understand.

If there is something to be afraid of, IMHO, it is purchasing a VW electric vehicle that was rushed to production in order to improve the 'green' reputation of a company that was recently busted for cheating on their emissions testing of their diesel-powered vehicles. I won't be buying one from VW, but I do look forward to buying an electric vehicle once they become mainstream and the bugs have been worked out by the manufacturers.

That's usual for me because I always prefer to let the early adopters experience all the actual real world problems with new designs (automotive R&D divisions love early adopters to help discover problems with new designs on their dime). Once electric vehicles are perfected I will be more than happy to own one - they are quiet, have all their torque available at 0 rpm (i.e. can be fun to drive), have instant heat in the winter thanks to electric heating elements (rather than waiting for engine coolant to be heated by all the wasted thermal energy created through combustion), will be simpler to maintain because you don't have fuel systems, exhaust systems, valve clearances, multiple mechanisms to optimize cam timing, intake runner length, etc etc. You will still have a cooling system (electric vehicles still generate waste heat) but it will all be simpler than ICE systems.

They are going to have to solve the range/recharging issues before they are widely accepted though. And even then there are still issues with battery life and ability to recycle used EV batteries. But, I'm confident that it will all be worked out and in mass production in 10 years time.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Companies don't commit to spending tens of billions of Euros (60 billion in the case of VW) on a whim.

Well-run companies don't do stupid things like getting cute with emissions testing to attempt to convince the public that their diesel engines are low emission. This 30 billion Euro mistake (which translates to $44.6 billion Canadian dollars) -though "mistake" doesn't really cover this foolhardy dishonest business decision- has put VW in a precarious position, and one would think that one more huge financial hit could put them on the brink of extinction (though one would also expect the German govt. to bail them out).

So for anyone to have blind faith that anything VW is doing now is 100% in good judgement, you have to seriously have the rose coloured glasses on. That said, I hope it works out for them. There are a lot of VW diehards out there and it would be sad to see their favourite car company die a death at the hands of fools. Their concept cars look great though (as concept cars are supposed to).

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And I think you don't yet understand what Europe's emissions mandates mean. There's billions in fines to be paid if they don't meet targets. Better to invest that in product development than to boost government coffers.

From what I've read of your posts, I get the impression that you don't have a great understanding of how the auto industry works. It's all good, though, we can't all know everything. Keep learning, but in the mean time don't embarrass yourself by pretending you know everything there is to know - others can see right through it (a tip). I'll still read your stuff, but the inflammatory comments and such (that you tend to default to) are quite unnecessary, and thus it's really hard to take you seriously.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is now a whole different topic that your earlier assertions. Those goalposts getting heavy bro?

I said that Volkswagen would have to "ramp up production" (i.e. the thing that happens at the factory, not at the dealer) to the millions in two years. My further explanations trying to explain basics of how the auto industry works is not changing the goal posts.

Volkswagen has 37,000 preorders (compared to Tesla's Model 3 preorders in the half million range), has made no shipments to dealers despite production starting 4 months ago, yet it says it is going to produce 330,000 units at Zwickau in 2021 (i.e. next year). It is also said it has started "pre-production" at its factory, near Shanghai, with again zero shipments.

The only other factory it has identified as being for electric vehicle production is Chattanooga, which only broke ground in December.

So in short, few pre-orders, two factories dedicated to EV production, one hole in the ground that will not come online for 2 years, no sales this year of the much-hyped lower-priced models that are allegedly going to be the game changer for making EVs price competitive.

And I know you think VW is full of forward-thinking geniuses (mainly because it aligns with a narrative you are trying to push, I remember when you thought the builders of Ottawa's LRT were forward-thinking geniuses), but this is a company that just paid $25 billion in fines for its diesel fraud.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I remember when you thought the builders of Ottawa's LRT were forward-thinking geniuses),

Red herring. And weak.

I've suggested before that the system should have been HRT with platform screen doors.

I used to think your posts were respectable, but all I see here is bad faith arguments, strawmen and red herrings.....

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I said that Volkswagen would have to "ramp up production" (i.e. the thing that happens at the factory, not at the dealer) to the millions in two years. My further explanations trying to explain basics of how the auto industry works is not changing the goal posts.

Volkswagen has 37,000 preorders (compared to Tesla's Model 3 preorders in the half million range), has made no shipments to dealers despite production starting 4 months ago, yet it says it is going to produce 330,000 units at Zwickau in 2021 (i.e. next year). It is also said it has started "pre-production" at its factory, near Shanghai, with again zero shipments.

The only other factory it has identified as being for electric vehicle production is Chattanooga, which only broke ground in December.

So in short, few pre-orders, two factories dedicated to EV production, one hole in the ground that will not come online for 2 years, no sales this year of the much-hyped lower-priced models that are allegedly going to be the game changer for making EVs price competitive.

1) Preorders don't matter. VW doesn't have a fan club like Tesla. And they don't hype their cars. They sell them as appliances like other automakers.

2) You aren't helping your earlier post which was a strawman to begin with.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

If there is something to be afraid of, IMHO, it is purchasing a VW electric vehicle that was rushed to production...

I suggest you look up when they came up with the MEB platform. Arguing something half a decade in the making is "rushed to production" is an interesting take.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

They are going to have to solve the range/recharging issues before they are widely accepted though.

This is projecting your personal threshold for these. The broader public seems to be taking up the cars with ranges and charging times as they are today. Range is now suitable for a standard 1 day roadtrip with 1-2 charge stops. The bigger issue is the lack of fast chargers that can facilitate 15-30 min charge stops.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

And even then there are still issues with battery life and ability to recycle used EV batteries.

This is just not an issue that's going to stop adoption. And the only people who keep bringing this up in my experience are the trolls who seem oh so concerned about the environment all of a sudden.....

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Well-run companies don't do stupid things like getting cute with emissions testing to attempt to convince the public that their diesel engines are low emission. This 30 billion Euro mistake (which translates to $44.6 billion Canadian dollars) -though "mistake" doesn't really cover this foolhardy dishonest business decision- has put VW in a precarious position, and one would think that one more huge financial hit could put them on the brink of extinction (though one would also expect the German govt. to bail them out).

So for anyone to have blind faith that anything VW is doing now is 100% in good judgement, you have to seriously have the rose coloured glasses on. That said, I hope it works out for them. There are a lot of VW diehards out there and it would be sad to see their favourite car company die a death at the hands of fools. Their concept cars look great though (as concept cars are supposed to).

Dieselgate was indeed expensive. They gambled on not getting caught. What people really forget is how every Germany automaker got busted. Not just VW. The problem for VW is that they just had more diesel sales so they took a harder hit. Which is exactly why pivoting to electrics is so vitally important for them, because they need to replace the diesels in their portfolio.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

From what I've read of your posts, I get the impression that you don't have a great understanding of how the auto industry works. It's all good, though, we can't all know everything. Keep learning, but in the mean time don't embarrass yourself by pretending you know everything there is to know - others can see right through it (a tip). I'll still read your stuff, but the inflammatory comments and such (that you tend to default to) are quite unnecessary, and thus it's really hard to take you seriously.

And I get the impression that you (and a few others) think the old business model for the auto sector is going to be exactly how things work a decade from now. Despite watching sectors and industries get disrupted many times in our lifetimes, it always amazes me how people never learn from it.

Keep up with condescending nonsense. It reflects more on you than you think.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And I get the impression that you (and a few others) think the old business model for the auto sector is going to be exactly how things work a decade from now. Despite watching sectors and industries get disrupted many times in our lifetimes, it always amazes me how people never learn from it.

Keep up with condescending nonsense. It reflects more on you than you think.

One of Tesla's massive advantages is their direct sales and lack of dealer shenanigans getting in the way. It will be interesting to see when (not if) one of the large manufacturers goes back to this system, legal issues and lobbyists be damned.

Maybe BYD or another Chinese manufacturer will enter North America this way.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I suggest you look up when they came up with the MEB platform. Arguing something half a decade in the making is "rushed to production" is an interesting take.



This is projecting your personal threshold for these. The broader public seems to be taking up the cars with ranges and charging times as they are today. Range is now suitable for a standard 1 day roadtrip with 1-2 charge stops. The bigger issue is the lack of fast chargers that can facilitate 15-30 min charge stops.



This is just not an issue that's going to stop adoption. And the only people who keep bringing this up in my experience are the trolls who seem oh so concerned about the environment all of a sudden.....



Dieselgate was indeed expensive. They gambled on not getting caught. What people really forget is how every Germany automaker got busted. Not just VW. The problem for VW is that they just had more diesel sales so they took a harder hit. Which is exactly why pivoting to electrics is so vitally important for them, because they need to replace the diesels in their portfolio.



And I get the impression that you (and a few others) think the old business model for the auto sector is going to be exactly how things work a decade from now. Despite watching sectors and industries get disrupted many times in our lifetimes, it always amazes me how people never learn from it.

Keep up with condescending nonsense. It reflects more on you than you think.

Don't disagree with all your points, though some tellingly viewed through a narrow viewpoint.

It was more than just German automakers, but senseless why VW would take such a risk with such a large segment of their sales. Says a lot about the company, but in the end they are the ones paying the price.

I see you are keeping it up with the insults and tone of your posts. I would not want to view the world in the way it must look from your side of things. Yes I did add some condescension to my last post, but I should have realized it's no way to get a poster like yourself to realize how you come off to people.

Carry on and have fun with it.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

One of Tesla's massive advantages is their direct sales and lack of dealer shenanigans getting in the way. It will be interesting to see when (not if) one of the large manufacturers goes back to this system, legal issues and lobbyists be damned.

Maybe BYD or another Chinese manufacturer will enter North America this way.

I remember discussions before Tesla on "Why can't I just buy a car online?"

It's not just Tesla. Rivian, for example, rejected a deal with GM and chose Ford, because the former wouldn't allow direct sales. All the new automakers are realizing that dealers don't add as much value as they claim to. And since most are large multi brand conglomerates, they aren't particularly loyal to your brand either.

Personally, I've always hated the song and dance of "Let me take this offer to my manager." Used a broker for the last car I bought. I would genuinely consider a brand simply if they chose not to sell through dealerships. That's how much I despise the rent seekers (realtors are a close second).

There are downsides. Tesla has some notoriety on service. And of course, getting a test ride is difficult. That said, over the long run I think the bigger companies will start adopting the same model.

[OldDartmouthMark]

The buying a car online thing is a recent phenomenon. I'm curious as to how that works out for people.

For new cars, it seems simple enough, as each car should be the same (other than colour and trim level), and as long as you get to have some seat time in it (for those for whom it matters) it's all good to go. I don't think anybody enjoys the sales experience at a traditional dealer.

For Tesla, I'm a little curious. For somebody in, say, Halifax, the nearest Tesla store and service outlet is in Quebec City. I wonder how that works out for people If you need to have your brakes serviced, for example. How is it done? Do you ship the car to Quebec City, or do they have agreements with local shops to do the work? It would be easy for them to courier parts anywhere, but you still need somebody who is trained and certified to do the work, who also has access to Tesla service information and diagnostic tools/software.

I've also seen many ads for online used car purchasing - you can do it all from your phone apparently. It makes me wonder how somebody determines if a used car they are interested is alright, as there are many items that can have increased wear or damage depending on how it was used. Not as simple as buying a new car where everything on it is new. Anybody have experience with that?

Interestingly, the talk about the negative dealership experience makes me wonder why Saturn's dealer philosophy didn't catch on, where the price was set with no haggling from the dealer (which has always confounded me - why should a dealer be able to sell new cars at different prices?). To me it always sounded like a great situation - the price is "X", so you pay "X" - no "let me run this by the sales manager" BS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Corporation

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

The buying a car online thing is a recent phenomenon. I'm curious as to how that works out for people.

For new cars, it seems simple enough, as each car should be the same (other than colour and trim level), and as long as you get to have some seat time in it (for those for whom it matters) it's all good to go. I don't think anybody enjoys the sales experience at a traditional dealer.

For Tesla, I'm a little curious. For somebody in, say, Halifax, the nearest Tesla store and service outlet is in Quebec City. I wonder how that works out for people If you need to have your brakes serviced, for example. How is it done? Do you ship the car to Quebec City, or do they have agreements with local shops to do the work? It would be easy for them to courier parts anywhere, but you still need somebody who is trained and certified to do the work, who also has access to Tesla service information and diagnostic tools/software.

I've also seen many ads for online used car purchasing - you can do it all from your phone apparently. It makes me wonder how somebody determines if a used car they are interested is alright, as there are many items that can have increased wear or damage depending on how it was used. Not as simple as buying a new car where everything on it is new. Anybody have experience with that?

Interestingly, the talk about the negative dealership experience makes me wonder why Saturn's dealer philosophy didn't catch on, where the price was set with no haggling from the dealer (which has always confounded me - why should a dealer be able to sell new cars at different prices?). To me it always sounded like a great situation - the price is "X", so you pay "X" - no "let me run this by the sales manager" BS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Corporation

Tesla has mobile service techs, but for more involved work it would need go to a local service centre.

It's important to note that Tesla has really no regular scheduled maintenance required. They used to require a brake fluid flush every 2 years and battery coolant replacement every 5 years. They've recently revised that to test the condition of the brake fluid (water content/corrosiveness) and replace as necessary. The battery coolant does not have to be replaced now. They should be very inexpensive cars to own. Also, regenerative braking extends the life of the brakes so I'm pretty confident they'll last the life of the car.

edit: The cabin air filter also needs to be replaced periodically.

I'm sure traditional dealerships are no too happy about the lack of required maintenance. And, I'd bet that as BEVs become more mainstream there will be a contraction of the number of dealers, and, I think other manufacturers will start selling direct.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

The buying a car online thing is a recent phenomenon. I'm curious as to how that works out for people.

For new cars, it seems simple enough, as each car should be the same (other than colour and trim level), and as long as you get to have some seat time in it (for those for whom it matters) it's all good to go. I don't think anybody enjoys the sales experience at a traditional dealer.

For Tesla, I'm a little curious. For somebody in, say, Halifax, the nearest Tesla store and service outlet is in Quebec City. I wonder how that works out for people If you need to have your brakes serviced, for example. How is it done? Do you ship the car to Quebec City, or do they have agreements with local shops to do the work? It would be easy for them to courier parts anywhere, but you still need somebody who is trained and certified to do the work, who also has access to Tesla service information and diagnostic tools/software.

I've also seen many ads for online used car purchasing - you can do it all from your phone apparently. It makes me wonder how somebody determines if a used car they are interested is alright, as there are many items that can have increased wear or damage depending on how it was used. Not as simple as buying a new car where everything on it is new. Anybody have experience with that?

Interestingly, the talk about the negative dealership experience makes me wonder why Saturn's dealer philosophy didn't catch on, where the price was set with no haggling from the dealer (which has always confounded me - why should a dealer be able to sell new cars at different prices?). To me it always sounded like a great situation - the price is "X", so you pay "X" - no "let me run this by the sales manager" BS.

I don't think it's so much about buying a car online. That has come with regular dealerships too. They have eliminated most (but not all) of the price haggling that way too. I can look up the price of a brand new Toyota whatever, see dealer availability, etc.

It's more about the relationship between the dealer and the manufacturer. Their incentives are not aligned. The manufacturer wants to get more cars sold, no warranty repairs, etc. The dealer wants to suck as many extras out of you as possible, including maintenance, repairs, etc.

Tesla has mobile service. It's even an option for me living close to a service center. They will send somebody to my place to do work. I can request it directly and/or they triage the incident and what the fix might be. There must be limitations to what a mobile tech can do, depending on the issue.

I'm not sure about brakes specifically, but tires and other stuff can be done by "regular" mechanics.

But for the major work, Tesla does it all. All parties (you and them) have an incentive not to do unnecessary work or spend too much money. Tesla has a complete service record, and constantly updated diagnostic information for literally every car they've sold. They know specific production runs, potential issues, and can pro-actively contact YOU if there is a problem. It takes mandatory recalls to another level.

I don't want to come off like too much of a fanboy, but so much of this stuff isn't that complicated, they are just doing it better than anyone else.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Thanks Warren and Jaws, It sounds like Tesla has thought through much of the details.

I would be interested in seeing how things fare as their vehicles age, but it sounds promising thusfar.

Regarding brakes specifically, and why I asked, is that often in climates such as the east coast, corrosion of brake parts cause more problems or premature wear than just use per se. For example, if the brake rotors are iron-based, then rust will tend to build up on the surfaces and become polished by the brake pads, resulting in runout or thickness variation issues (brake vibration), or, brake pads will become rusted and stuck in the calipers, causing the pads to wear out more quickly. Regenerative braking usually results in accelerating these issues slightly as reduced use tends to allow more corrosion to set in.

That said, a tech could potentially do a brake job (parts replacement, but not resurfacing) remotely, in your driveway or garage, but typically that type of work is better done in an equipped shop.

I appreciate the benefit of your insight!

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Thanks Warren and Jaws, It sounds like Tesla has thought through much of the details.

I would be interested in seeing how things fare as their vehicles age, but it sounds promising thusfar.

Regarding brakes specifically, and why I asked, is that often in climates such as the east coast, corrosion of brake parts cause more problems or premature wear than just use per se. For example, if the brake rotors are iron-based, then rust will tend to build up on the surfaces and become polished by the brake pads, resulting in runout or thickness variation issues (brake vibration), or, brake pads will become rusted and stuck in the calipers, causing the pads to wear out more quickly. Regenerative braking usually results in accelerating these issues slightly as reduced use tends to allow more corrosion to set in.

That said, a tech could potentially do a brake job (parts replacement, but not resurfacing) remotely, in your driveway or garage, but typically that type of work is better done in an equipped shop.

I appreciate the benefit of your insight!

Electric vehicles should require a lot less maintenance over the long term. They definitely eliminate a lot of the standard maintenance items, and have far fewer moving parts. That's part of the reason many dealers are hesitant to sell them. That's their income stream!

Regenerative braking has extended the pad life of brakes significantly. Rust and other age based issues would crop up though.

I don't see why any shop that takes care of tires and wheels couldn't also do Tesla brakes. My only concern would be parts availability. There are very limited 3rd party parts for Tesla right now. Only things like wipers (and wheels, and tires). But they aren't using anything revolutionary with respect to brakes and pads, or even rotors. Those should be out there on the market soon if not already.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Electric vehicles should require a lot less maintenance over the long term. They definitely eliminate a lot of the standard maintenance items, and have far fewer moving parts. That's part of the reason many dealers are hesitant to sell them. That's their income stream!

Regenerative braking has extended the pad life of brakes significantly. Rust and other age based issues would crop up though.

I don't see why any shop that takes care of tires and wheels couldn't also do Tesla brakes. My only concern would be parts availability. There are very limited 3rd party parts for Tesla right now. Only things like wipers (and wheels, and tires). But they aren't using anything revolutionary with respect to brakes and pads, or even rotors. Those should be out there on the market soon if not already.

That's why I was wondering if they would have service agreements with local shops to extend their service area, and why I was wondering how they will make out once the vehicles age.

I do get that electric vehicles get rid of all the ICE stuff, like complex engines, fuel/emissions systems, exhaust systems for example. But they still have the brakes as mentioned, suspension systems, steering systems, and other electric/mechanical parts like power window mechanisms, HVAC systems, etc., that do wear or fail over time. That said, most of those items can go for many years without maintenance/repair required, but eventually they will need somewhere to service them, as I'm sure owners won't want to recycle the cars just because they need light/moderate repairs.

And then there is corrosion, which isn't a wear item exactly, but it is an age item that can cause all kinds of system failures. All that makes me wonder if they will be able to go forever without some kind of service department or external agreement with independent shops.

Of course, once they are out of warranty maybe independent shops should be able to do much of the work as long as there is a parts supply (aftermarket) and diagnostic software available to the aftermarket (required by law IIRC). In that way they shouldn't be much different than any other car.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

That's why I was wondering if they would have service agreements with local shops to extend their service area, and why I was wondering how they will make out once the vehicles age.

So far no, I haven't seen anything suggesting they are interested in partnering. But time will tell. The oldest Model S is 8 years old now, but I suspect they were primarily sold in areas that have a local-ish service center.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I do get that electric vehicles get rid of all the ICE stuff, like complex engines, fuel/emissions systems, exhaust systems for example. But they still have the brakes as mentioned, suspension systems, steering systems, and other electric/mechanical parts like power window mechanisms, HVAC systems, etc., that do wear or fail over time. That said, most of those items can go for many years without maintenance/repair required, but eventually they will need somewhere to service them, as I'm sure owners won't want to recycle the cars just because they need light/moderate repairs.

And then there is corrosion, which isn't a wear item exactly, but it is an age item that can cause all kinds of system failures. All that makes me wonder if they will be able to go forever without some kind of service department or external agreement with independent shops.

Of course, once they are out of warranty maybe independent shops should be able to do much of the work as long as there is a parts supply (aftermarket) and diagnostic software available to the aftermarket (required by law IIRC). In that way they shouldn't be much different than any other car.

Legislation may have to pass that forces them to provide that diagnostic capability. Independent body shops do repairs now, which must include a lot of what you're talking about now, as I think about it.

Here in BC, Tesla can't do accident repairs on their own vehicles (by law).

[OldDartmouthMark]

There is an agreement in place (apparently not law, but a voluntary agreement) to allow independent shops access to service information:

https://www.ara.bc.ca/right-to-repair-casis/

I believe the US has something similar, but don't know if it's legislation or an agreement (doesn't matter to me as long as service info is available).

[thurmas]

GM really seems to be going all out to beat Tesla and dominate the electric vehicle market with a plan to sell 1 million by 2025. Below is what they are planning to do and I have to say I am impressed:

https://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...la/4905906002/

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I don't think it's so much about buying a car online. That has come with regular dealerships too. They have eliminated most (but not all) of the price haggling that way too. I can look up the price of a brand new Toyota whatever, see dealer availability, etc.

It's more about the relationship between the dealer and the manufacturer. Their incentives are not aligned. The manufacturer wants to get more cars sold, no warranty repairs, etc. The dealer wants to suck as many extras out of you as possible, including maintenance, repairs, etc.

Tesla has mobile service. It's even an option for me living close to a service center. They will send somebody to my place to do work. I can request it directly and/or they triage the incident and what the fix might be. There must be limitations to what a mobile tech can do, depending on the issue.

I'm not sure about brakes specifically, but tires and other stuff can be done by "regular" mechanics.

But for the major work, Tesla does it all. All parties (you and them) have an incentive not to do unnecessary work or spend too much money. Tesla has a complete service record, and constantly updated diagnostic information for literally every car they've sold. They know specific production runs, potential issues, and can pro-actively contact YOU if there is a problem. It takes mandatory recalls to another level.

I don't want to come off like too much of a fanboy, but so much of this stuff isn't that complicated, they are just doing it better than anyone else.

Doesn't Genesis do without dealerships? They'll bring a car to your house for you to test drive and when yours needs servicing they pick it up and leave you with another.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Doesn't Genesis do without dealerships? They'll bring a car to your house for you to test drive and when yours needs servicing they pick it up and leave you with another.

But they still need to take it somewhere to do the servicing. I don't know this, but without any factual information I would imagine they simply take it to a Hyundai dealership to do the service, and all they are actually doing is paying somebody to pick up the car so the customer doesn't have to go to a 'yucky' dealership service department.

It's a nice gesture, as it's never fun to go to the dealership, though I still would be slightly uncomfortable about some unknown character driving my expensive car. Most people are less protective of their vehicles than I am (me: ), so probably not an issue for most. Higher end luxury, or near-luxury brands tend to want to give their customers a more pampered experience as part of the draw of paying more for your car.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I don't see why any shop that takes care of tires and wheels couldn't also do Tesla brakes.

Yep, the undercarriage (brakes & suspension) is probably the maintenance & repair types that continue on with the least change with electric cars.