Atlantic Canada airport thread

[J81]

Originally Posted by nwalbert

I think we can all appreciate the YQM wants to hold onto their air cargo business with passenger traffic at the airport down so much. However the idea that there is no synergies between all of these shipping methods and the infrastructure and support required, that could be available at scale, is probably not accurate.

With the Port continuing to grow and we have already seen international firms starting to locate, they will have a need for air cargo as well, and it won't take long for YSJ to fill the need.

Ill ask you this. The major driver of port growth in SJ is container traffic correct? How much of that traffic is driven by the local economy? Would you say its minuscule at most? Almost all of it gets put on intermodal cars and ships west through NBSR and onto CP rails system ( i still dont feel right calling it CPKC ). I dont see any interconnectivity between marine shipping and air cargo. Fishing to air cargo obviously but there really is no reason to put anything on a ship to send it over water and then take it off said ship to put it on a plane for the last 2hrs of its journey. You would just put it on a plane at or close to the cargo’s origin.

Like i said. Ive been in transportation 25 years. Im speaking from experience.

[homebody]

Originally Posted by J81

Ill ask you this. The major driver of port growth in SJ is container traffic correct? How much of that traffic is driven by the local economy? Would you say its minuscule at most? Almost all of it gets put on intermodal cars and ships west through NBSR and onto CP rails system ( i still dont feel right calling it CPKC ). I dont see any interconnectivity between marine shipping and air cargo. Fishing to air cargo obviously but there really is no reason to put anything on a ship to send it over water and then take it off said ship to put it on a plane for the last 2hrs of its journey. You would just put it on a plane at or close to the cargo’s origin.

Like i said. Ive been in transportation 25 years. Im speaking from experience.

Yes you have mentioned this twice now that you’re in the transport business. Remember anything is possible.

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by J81

Ill ask you this. The major driver of port growth in SJ is container traffic correct? How much of that traffic is driven by the local economy? Would you say its minuscule at most? Almost all of it gets put on intermodal cars and ships west through NBSR and onto CP rails system ( i still dont feel right calling it CPKC ). I dont see any interconnectivity between marine shipping and air cargo. Fishing to air cargo obviously but there really is no reason to put anything on a ship to send it over water and then take it off said ship to put it on a plane for the last 2hrs of its journey. You would just put it on a plane at or close to the cargo’s origin.

Like i said. Ive been in transportation 25 years. Im speaking from experience.

I understand that you may be defensive since you work at YQM, however if you go back and read my post, I do not mention shipments moving from rail/sea to air.

Instead I mention the synergies within the transportation industry. As Port SJ, its rail connections, and air cargo business grow and thrive I hope that your business can also continue to grow. There is room for all.

[homebody]

Originally Posted by nwalbert

I understand that you may be defensive since you work at YQM, however if you go back and read my post, I do not mention shipments moving from rail/sea to air.

Instead I mention the synergies within the transportation industry. As Port SJ, its rail connections, and air cargo business grow and thrive I hope that your business can also continue to grow. There is room for all.

Well said!!

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by nwalbert

I understand that you may be defensive since you work at YQM, however if you go back and read my post, I do not mention shipments moving from rail/sea to air.

I believe it was mmmat that indicated they worked at YQM.

Instead I mention the synergies within the transportation industry. As Port SJ, its rail connections, and air cargo business grow and thrive I hope that your business can also continue to grow. There is room for all.

What do you mean by "synergies" between air and port?

[stephan.richard]

Originally Posted by Nashe

I believe it was mmmat that indicated they worked at YQM.

What do you mean by "synergies" between air and port?

If there would have been greater synergies between air and port YSJ should have been a major air cargo operator years ago but that never panned out. The reason why YQM succeeds over YSJ is the proximity to highway access and as well as the needed infrastructure needed to support such an operation. YQM has invested heavily in positioning the airport as the air cargo hub of the province where the majority of all the air cargo comes into the province is funneled throughout the province.

My main argument is why are we all fighting for the same chunk of the pie when I look at Nova Scotia you do not see Yarmouth or Sydney fight with Halifax to get their chunk of the air traffic. The people of Yarmouth and Sydney have to drive down to Halifax to fly out and with that model the Halifax international airport has a better selection of flights and better airport to work with.

In New Brunswick what ticks me off is that all the three airports in the province witch all have little to no varieties to work together to say that we will designate one airport as the international airport of the province and designate the others as regional airport. At the moment when I look at available infrastructure the YQM airport is well positionner with being a CBSA 300 airport capable of handling a widebody plane for international travel plus with one designated airport it would position us well for it to become a possible USBP pre-clearance port if we could attract a year round US flight. Then we could designate YSJ, YFC, ZBF as regional airport. And folks in these cities are only a maximum of 4 hours drive from YQM to fly out. Plus with more flights out of YQM would probably lower the airfares for us to fly out of New Brunswick.

Plus I was reading somewhere where Breeze Airways has applied to do Transatlantic flights using the Airbus A220 and if that is the case this could open the gate for an airport let’s say YQM to talk to Air Canada and ask them to deploy the A220 on a European route like Air Canada is offering the 737Max to Heathrow and WestJet using the 737 to do their European flights from Halifax and Saint-John’s.

This is just my take and new routes that airlines will announce will be based on the pilots and aircraft’s being available.

[NB_ExistsToo]

Originally Posted by stephan.richard

If there would have been greater synergies between air and port YSJ should have been a major air cargo operator years ago but that never panned out. The reason why YQM succeeds over YSJ is the proximity to highway access and as well as the needed infrastructure needed to support such an operation. YQM has invested heavily in positioning the airport as the air cargo hub of the province where the majority of all the air cargo comes into the province is funneled throughout the province.

My main argument is why are we all fighting for the same chunk of the pie when I look at Nova Scotia you do not see Yarmouth or Sydney fight with Halifax to get their chunk of the air traffic. The people of Yarmouth and Sydney have to drive down to Halifax to fly out and with that model the Halifax international airport has a better selection of flights and better airport to work with.

In New Brunswick what ticks me off is that all the three airports in the province witch all have little to no varieties to work together to say that we will designate one airport as the international airport of the province and designate the others as regional airport. At the moment when I look at available infrastructure the YQM airport is well positionner with being a CBSA 300 airport capable of handling a widebody plane for international travel plus with one designated airport it would position us well for it to become a possible USBP pre-clearance port if we could attract a year round US flight. Then we could designate YSJ, YFC, ZBF as regional airport. And folks in these cities are only a maximum of 4 hours drive from YQM to fly out. Plus with more flights out of YQM would probably lower the airfares for us to fly out of New Brunswick.

Plus I was reading somewhere where Breeze Airways has applied to do Transatlantic flights using the Airbus A220 and if that is the case this could open the gate for an airport let’s say YQM to talk to Air Canada and ask them to deploy the A220 on a European route like Air Canada is offering the 737Max to Heathrow and WestJet using the 737 to do their European flights from Halifax and Saint-John’s.

This is just my take and new routes that airlines will announce will be based on the pilots and aircraft’s being available.

The only reason these so called "synergies" work in NS is because Halifax dominates, it's literally over half of the province's population and has crushed the Sydney and Yarmouth competition, they would have fought if they had a chance. These two ends of the provinces have also struggled to maintain any semblance of growth.

Nobody wants to back off their airports because it would make growth more difficult, and I'm not sure the province would want to make any changes either, it would make growth more difficult for 3 of its 4 cities, plus wouldn't they likely have to spend more money? As they would no longer fall under the federal jurisdiction? (I don't know when airports fall under Transport Canada vs provincial ownership)

[Bishop2047]

Originally Posted by stephan.richard

If there would have been greater synergies between air and port YSJ should have been a major air cargo operator years ago but that never panned out. The reason why YQM succeeds over YSJ is the proximity to highway access and as well as the needed infrastructure needed to support such an operation. YQM has invested heavily in positioning the airport as the air cargo hub of the province where the majority of all the air cargo comes into the province is funneled throughout the province.

My main argument is why are we all fighting for the same chunk of the pie when I look at Nova Scotia you do not see Yarmouth or Sydney fight with Halifax to get their chunk of the air traffic. The people of Yarmouth and Sydney have to drive down to Halifax to fly out and with that model the Halifax international airport has a better selection of flights and better airport to work with.

In New Brunswick what ticks me off is that all the three airports in the province witch all have little to no varieties to work together to say that we will designate one airport as the international airport of the province and designate the others as regional airport. At the moment when I look at available infrastructure the YQM airport is well positionner with being a CBSA 300 airport capable of handling a widebody plane for international travel plus with one designated airport it would position us well for it to become a possible USBP pre-clearance port if we could attract a year round US flight. Then we could designate YSJ, YFC, ZBF as regional airport. And folks in these cities are only a maximum of 4 hours drive from YQM to fly out. Plus with more flights out of YQM would probably lower the airfares for us to fly out of New Brunswick.

Plus I was reading somewhere where Breeze Airways has applied to do Transatlantic flights using the Airbus A220 and if that is the case this could open the gate for an airport let’s say YQM to talk to Air Canada and ask them to deploy the A220 on a European route like Air Canada is offering the 737Max to Heathrow and WestJet using the 737 to do their European flights from Halifax and Saint-John’s.

This is just my take and new routes that airlines will announce will be based on the pilots and aircraft’s being available.

Crazy question. Would you like this idea if the city benefitting the most was not your own city (not looking for an answer, we all need to check ourselves for shameless boosterism even if subconscious).

Yarmouth and Sydney would kill to steal services from the HRM, it is not some collaboration, they just are not in the same ballpark.

SJ may not be competing with Moncton much at all in air cargo. In truth we really don't know if the project will happen, or who would be utilizing these services the most, so they may not be "fighting over the same piece of pie". As new opportunities for air cargo may come with new facilities in a new region.

[J81]

Originally Posted by nwalbert

I understand that you may be defensive since you work at YQM, however if you go back and read my post, I do not mention shipments moving from rail/sea to air.

Instead I mention the synergies within the transportation industry. As Port SJ, its rail connections, and air cargo business grow and thrive I hope that your business can also continue to grow. There is room for all.

Im not defensive at all nor do i work at YQM. I simply expressed my opinion based on my vast experience in the transportation sector. If you choose to dismiss it that is perfectly ok as well.

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by J81

Im not defensive at all nor do i work at YQM. I simply expressed my opinion based on my vast experience in the transportation sector. If you choose to dismiss it that is perfectly ok as well.

Sorry, I guess I got you confused with another poster who mentioned they work at YQM.

Regardless, I hope that both Moncton and Saint John can continue to grow and potentially even work together.

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by stephan.richard

If there would have been greater synergies between air and port YSJ should have been a major air cargo operator years ago but that never panned out. The reason why YQM succeeds over YSJ is the proximity to highway access and as well as the needed infrastructure needed to support such an operation. YQM has invested heavily in positioning the airport as the air cargo hub of the province where the majority of all the air cargo comes into the province is funneled throughout the province.

My main argument is why are we all fighting for the same chunk of the pie when I look at Nova Scotia you do not see Yarmouth or Sydney fight with Halifax to get their chunk of the air traffic. The people of Yarmouth and Sydney have to drive down to Halifax to fly out and with that model the Halifax international airport has a better selection of flights and better airport to work with.

In New Brunswick what ticks me off is that all the three airports in the province witch all have little to no varieties to work together to say that we will designate one airport as the international airport of the province and designate the others as regional airport. At the moment when I look at available infrastructure the YQM airport is well positionner with being a CBSA 300 airport capable of handling a widebody plane for international travel plus with one designated airport it would position us well for it to become a possible USBP pre-clearance port if we could attract a year round US flight. Then we could designate YSJ, YFC, ZBF as regional airport. And folks in these cities are only a maximum of 4 hours drive from YQM to fly out. Plus with more flights out of YQM would probably lower the airfares for us to fly out of New Brunswick.

Plus I was reading somewhere where Breeze Airways has applied to do Transatlantic flights using the Airbus A220 and if that is the case this could open the gate for an airport let’s say YQM to talk to Air Canada and ask them to deploy the A220 on a European route like Air Canada is offering the 737Max to Heathrow and WestJet using the 737 to do their European flights from Halifax and Saint-John’s.

This is just my take and new routes that airlines will announce will be based on the pilots and aircraft’s being available.

If you're asking why now then I suggest you review the SJ Port thread. For those of us interested in regional economic development, it's an interesting read and lots of exciting things happening for the region.

The new rail and sea connections make more logistics projects viable today that might not have been previously.

Unfortunately I think the idea of a centralized airport is not going to happen in our lifetimes.

[mmmatt]

Folks the synergy between air cargo and sea cargo is very minimal.

Air = high speed, high cost per pound.
Sea = low speed, low cost per pound.

They are essentially opposite ends of the logistics spectrum.

We can all rest assured that Saint John will be the NB king of SEA cargo for many years to come and Moncton will remain the king of AIR cargo for NB.

Everyone has their strengths and in both cases of the port in Saint John and YQM in Moncton work is being done to shore those up and huge gains are being made for both!

YSJ has seen the success other airports (including YQM) have had with offering up commercial lands on their periphery and wants a piece of that action to bolster their financial position and that’s commendable, they are making an attempt at least. The issue in the case of YSJ is it’s relatively distant from the city and has poor highway connectivity it’s not the likely hub of commercial developments. Compare this to YQM which is embedded into the fastest growing urban area in the province (Dieppe) and sits at the interchange of two busy divided highways, comparing the two areas on satellite imagery the difference is vast. It’s not to say nothing will develop around YSJ but they cannot expect similar results with a very different starting platform.

Working in the air cargo industry it is abundantly clear why YQM is the natural hub for air cargo in our region and why most large carriers continue to invest here. Sure YHZ is on par by gross tonnage but they are moving a lot of seafood and other bulk shipments whereas YQM is moving many more parcels and overall volume of goods because most parcel movement uses the efficient hub and spoke model where YQM lies geographically in the center of our region. YSJ by comparison sits in a “corner” with relatively poor road connectivity to the rest of the region. If you need a hub to connect to Bathurst, Halifax, PEI and Cape Breton imagine the inefficiency of launching everything from Saint John each morning, it just doesn’t make sense in our world of speed and efficiency.

Beyond parcel volume the next largest user of air cargo in our region is seafood, mainly lobster. There is a huge international market for lobster and it’s a product that makes sense to ship by air, the margins are high and it’s a perishable commodity. Again YHZ and YQM have an edge here being both in close proximity to the major Lobster fishing areas of our region. Both airports have significant cold storage and supply chains set up for this industry.

Saint John is an industry powerhouse, oil, forestry products, and the port. None of these are about speed they are about vast quantities of materials moving as smoothly and cost effectively as possible and that’s great too, we need both to succeed for NB to thrive.

All that said it’s absolutely commendable that YSJ would strive to improve and seek investments. My point is these announcements should be taken as what they are, an attempt to attract attention and investment. They are not a probable vision of the future.

A hotel for example would be great but YSJ has only a few regular scheduled flights per day, who will use it? The hotels near YQM are also imbedded into the community at large so they are not just “airport hotels” which lets be honest wouldn’t survive even at YQM with triple the passenger volume of YSJ if YQM were isolated in the same way in a rural outlying area of the city, it would be akin to building a hotel in Memramcook or Scoudouc, it just wouldn’t be viable relying solely on air passengers, many of which are locals or travelers from a nearby town and don’t need a hotel.

I apologize for the lengthy post but this is a subject I have a deal of insight on and it’s why I found the YSJ announcement somewhat comical at first but on further thought realize they have to do this, they are trying to survive like the rest of the small airports and want to stand out, good on them.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by mmmatt

Folks the synergy between air cargo and sea cargo is very minimal.

Air = high speed, high cost per pound.
Sea = low speed, low cost per pound.

They are essentially opposite ends of the logistics spectrum.

We can all rest assured that Saint John will be the NB king of SEA cargo for many years to come and Moncton will remain the king of AIR cargo for NB.

Everyone has their strengths and in both cases of the port in Saint John and YQM in Moncton work is being done to shore those up and huge gains are being made for both!

YSJ has seen the success other airports (including YQM) have had with offering up commercial lands on their periphery and wants a piece of that action to bolster their financial position and that’s commendable, they are making an attempt at least. The issue in the case of YSJ is it’s relatively distant from the city and has poor highway connectivity it’s not the likely hub of commercial developments. Compare this to YQM which is embedded into the fastest growing urban area in the province (Dieppe) and sits at the interchange of two busy divided highways, comparing the two areas on satellite imagery the difference is vast. It’s not to say nothing will develop around YSJ but they cannot expect similar results with a very different starting platform.

Working in the air cargo industry it is abundantly clear why YQM is the natural hub for air cargo in our region and why most large carriers continue to invest here. Sure YHZ is on par by gross tonnage but they are moving a lot of seafood and other bulk shipments whereas YQM is moving many more parcels and overall volume of goods because most parcel movement uses the efficient hub and spoke model where YQM lies geographically in the center of our region. YSJ by comparison sits in a “corner” with relatively poor road connectivity to the rest of the region. If you need a hub to connect to Bathurst, Halifax, PEI and Cape Breton imagine the inefficiency of launching everything from Saint John each morning, it just doesn’t make sense in our world of speed and efficiency.

Beyond parcel volume the next largest user of air cargo in our region is seafood, mainly lobster. There is a huge international market for lobster and it’s a product that makes sense to ship by air, the margins are high and it’s a perishable commodity. Again YHZ and YQM have an edge here being both in close proximity to the major Lobster fishing areas of our region. Both airports have significant cold storage and supply chains set up for this industry.

Saint John is an industry powerhouse, oil, forestry products, and the port. None of these are about speed they are about vast quantities of materials moving as smoothly and cost effectively as possible and that’s great too, we need both to succeed for NB to thrive.

All that said it’s absolutely commendable that YSJ would strive to improve and seek investments. My point is these announcements should be taken as what they are, an attempt to attract attention and investment. They are not a probable vision of the future.

A hotel for example would be great but YSJ has only a few regular scheduled flights per day, who will use it? The hotels near YQM are also imbedded into the community at large so they are not just “airport hotels” which lets be honest wouldn’t survive even at YQM with triple the passenger volume of YSJ if YQM were isolated in the same way in a rural outlying area of the city, it would be akin to building a hotel in Memramcook or Scoudouc, it just wouldn’t be viable relying solely on air passengers, many of which are locals or travelers from a nearby town and don’t need a hotel.

I apologize for the lengthy post but this is a subject I have a deal of insight on and it’s why I found the YSJ announcement somewhat comical at first but on further thought realize they have to do this, they are trying to survive like the rest of the small airports and want to stand out, good on them.

Good post and a good summation. I too applaud YSJ's management for their efforts but I think many of the proposed land uses are a real stretch and hardly realistic.

I also don't get how some people think a growth in sea and rail cargo through Saint John will somehow create a demand for air cargo. Apples and oranges as you have pointed out.

[q12]

Originally Posted by mmmatt

Working in the air cargo industry it is abundantly clear why YQM is the natural hub for air cargo in our region and why most large carriers continue to invest here. Sure YHZ is on par by gross tonnage but they are moving a lot of seafood and other bulk shipments whereas YQM is moving many more parcels and overall volume of goods because most parcel movement uses the efficient hub and spoke model where YQM lies geographically in the center of our region.

Moncton processed 20,500 metric tons in 2022 down 1% cargo volume compared to 2021.

Halifax Stanfield processed 37,000 metric tons of cargo in 2022, up 6.4 per cent from 2021.

Halifax's Stanfields new Air Cargo Logistics Park is the largest east of Montreal.

• It has eight dedicated cargo aircraft parking aprons available for wide-body aircraft with cold storage facilities
• 24/7 customs clearance and operations with no noise restrictions, curfews, operational or slot restrictions
• Ten cargo carriers
• Access to independent cargo handlers
• Bonded warehousing and industrial cargo expertise

• Video Link

[mmmatt]

Thanks for the clarification q12, apologies for my ignorance on the latest numbers but my point remains regarding YHZ being much more in the business of moving seafood, military, specialty auto and various other bulk shipments by air (greater tonnage) YQM moves more package volume (when I say volume I mean pieces ex you could have 2000 small parcels in a container where only 50 lobster boxes would fit) for the carriers like CPC, DHL, UPS, FedEx, Purolator, Midland and Altimax. YHZ does some of that as well but YQM is the main hub for most of these carriers due to the hub and spoke model they employ for the maritimes. Likewise YQM does some seafood and bulk as well with charters and ATS provides independent cargo handlers but definitely YHZ is way ahead in this regard.

[someone123]

The rapid urban demographic growth happening in the region is really going to affect how much a hub-and-spoke model oriented around supplying farther flung smaller towns and rural areas matters compared to supplying the cities themselves. In a province like Ontario or BC it's the main metro area that matters (such as the GTA), not a central geographical location (something like Sault Ste. Marie in Ontario or Prince George in BC). In the 1950's, sure, PEI and Cape Breton had a lot more weight.

Usually people kind of exaggerate Moncton's centrality as well. If you drew up a map of the closest city by travel time with Quebec City, Moncton, and Halifax, I am not sure Moncton would get over half of the population of the region, and the plurality would likely go to Halifax. When you add in the bigger draw for Halifax (and Quebec City or Montreal in northern Francophone areas of NB) this shifts things a bit more. I think Moncton is more of a hub for southern NB, PEI, and a bit of northern NS than for the Maritimes. It has more of an edge over Saint John from this than Halifax. It will get some regional hub stuff but it's not a no-brainer location for a wide variety of services. People used to suggest that Moncton would have the best shopping and so on and that never panned out.

[MonctonRad]

Cargo Services (YQM)
https://cyqm.ca/businesses/cargo-services/#Greater Moncton

Roméo LeBlanc International Airport can get your goods to market quickly and easily:

- No curfew means we’re open for business 24 hours per day, every day.
- Strategically located for North American and European air entry/exit points (Great Circle Route).
- Excellent weather record – 97% VFR (Visual Flight Rules).
- YQM is a safe, secure, uncongested airport resulting in overall operational cost savings and maximum efficiencies and turnaround.
- Transshipment certified airport.
- Two runways: 11/29 – 8,000 ft (2,438m), 06/24 – 10,001 ft (3,048 m).
- Located adjacent to two highly successful industrial parks.
- Two major, uncongested Canada/USA border crossing points within 3 hours by road.
- 2-3 hours from every major consumer market in the Maritimes.
- Largest courier hub in Atlantic Canada with FedEx, UPS, Purolator and CargoJet Canada. (as per mmmatt's post above)
- Province of New Brunswick’s only air cargo hub.
- Land available for on-airport development.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

People used to suggest that Moncton would have the best shopping and so on and that never panned out.

In many respects, shopping between Moncton and Halifax is pretty much a wash (aside from IKEA, and perhaps the soon-to-be-defunct Bay stores).

Our Bass Pro is nicer than yours. We now have our own MEC, LL Bean, and are getting new stores at CF Champlain like Aritzia, Tesla, Brown's Shoes and a hugely expanded lululemon. People in the know are aware of strong interest by Simons in the Moncton market. We may have one only a couple of years after yours opens.

[MonctonRad]

YQM has an active planespotting group on Facebook. Here are some recent photos:


CargoJet


DND charter from YEG today, next stop Riga, Latvia


Fed Ex


WestJet flight to Calgary sporting Walt Dusney World colours.


Air Canada flying TCA livery


A whole lotta Rouge


Kalitta Air, picking up lobster for China. Atlas Air and China Southern also fly fresh seafood out of YQM to the far east

[q12]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

In many respects, shopping between Moncton and Halifax is pretty much a wash (aside from IKEA, and perhaps the soon-to-be-defunct Bay stores).

Our Bass Pro is nicer than yours. We now have our own MEC, LL Bean, and are getting new stores at CF Champlain like Aritzia, Tesla, Brown's Shoes and a hugely expanded lululemon. People in the know are aware of strong interest by Simons in the Moncton market. We may have one only a couple of years after yours opens.

It's not even close to a wash, lol. Shall we start a list of retailers in Halifax that don't exist elsewhere in the Maritimes?

The problem with Moncton and much of New Brunswick is it's constantly trying to compare itself to Halifax. I'd rather stay out of this thread for this reason as it's mainly a N.B.airport thread and how can we knock Halifax down a peg in anyway possible.