Should Canada Be Preparing for a Destabilized USA?

[csbvan]

Originally Posted by geotag277

I find it rather hilarious how much the left is conflating "anti-intellectualism" with "political outsiders". It is quite absurd, as I mentioned above, that Obama was largely elected as a political outsider, and much of Bernie Sanders' appeal is due to his being an independent, outside of the recognized Democratic establishment.

Yet, now that Trump got elected, largely on the same message as Obama as being a political outsider who wants to shake up the system, we have all these partisan cries of "anti intellectualism" when just 8 years ago it was "change and hope and anti-establishment".

In actuality, the anti-intellectualism is coming from lazy leftish attacks from you and rousseau, who seem to complain endlessly about figures like Devos, but are completely ignorant on the state of education, the state of policy making the department of education in the United States, and I doubt even know what the No Child Left Behind bill is and why it is so unpopular.

Rampant ignorance combined with lazy absurd attacks such as "at least in China they promote based on merit". Do you even know what school choice is and why Devos is advocating for it? Do you even know why No Child Left Behind has been seen as a toxic one size fits all education failure?

We already know the answer.

You see the world in Left/Right. I don't care about how seriously you take your hyper-partisan world view ("complain endlessly" i.e. 2 posts by someone, "rampant ignorance", and "lazy absurd attacks"). I made a simple point about the lack of experience and expertise in Trump's cabinet and how that will be taken as a weakness by other countries. You then went on an extreme rant in response. Calm down.

[geotag277]

In honor of his swearing in, just have to point out how Trump is such a nauseating narcissist.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by csbvan

You see the world in Left/Right. I don't care about how seriously you take your hyper-partisan world view ("complain endlessly" i.e. 2 posts by someone, "rampant ignorance", and "lazy absurd attacks"). I made a simple point about the lack of experience and expertise in Trump's cabinet and how that will be taken as a weakness by other countries. You then went on an extreme rant in response. Calm down.

I'm sorry, if we go back to 2008 are we going to see posts from you regarding Obama's lack of experience as a jr. senator?

I call things as I see them, and you are a partisan leftist, who is hypocritical, and bends over backwards to repeat political talking points.

There is a middle ground in politics, and if you and other people like you pretend there isn't, political discourse can go no where.

Again, I was a pretty big Bernie Sanders supporter, but I did find most of the complains about Trump (and they continue to be) absurd.

Climate change policy, supreme court justices, his tax plan to reduce tax on the wealthy as part of a repatriation play - those are somewhat interesting things to talk about and real points of contention concerning his administration.

Repeated vacuous calls of "anti intellectualism", calling him literally Hitler, assuming Trump voters got "duped" but Hillary and Obama voters got a great deal, showing a 6 minute clip of obvious vacuous political theater in which a cabinet member was given less than 15 seconds to talk etc. It's all just lazy political garbage, and you know it.

[csbvan]

Originally Posted by geotag277

I'm sorry, if we go back to 2008 are we going to see posts from you regarding Obama's lack of experience as a jr. senator?

I call things as I see them, and you are a partisan leftist, who is hypocritical, and bends over backwards to repeat political talking points.

There is a middle ground in politics, and if you and other people like you pretend there isn't, political discourse can go no where.

Again, I was a pretty big Bernie Sanders supporter, but I did find most of the complains about Trump (and they continue to be) absurd.

Climate change policy, supreme court justices, his tax plan to reduce tax on the wealthy as part of a repatriation play - those are somewhat interesting things to talk about and real points of contention concerning his administration.

Repeated vacuous calls of "anti intellectualism", calling him literally Hitler, assuming Trump voters got "duped" but Hillary and Obama voters got a great deal, showing a 6 minute clip of obvious vacuous political theater in which a cabinet member was given less than 15 seconds to talk etc. It's all just lazy political garbage, and you know it.

I think considering the qualifications of cabinet picks is a concern that transcends partisanship. The qualifications and knowledge of DeVos, Perry, or Tillerson are legitimate questions that people should care about. Whenever cabinet ministers are being appointed, a country should criticize them and point out their flaws. That is even more true when appointments don't have qualifications or a good grasp of the issues.

Partisan arguments will always arise given how contentious government policy is. It is easy to disagree with John McCain on security policy without questioning his expertise on the issue. That is normal partsanship. Appointing a nobody with no relevant experience is somewhat different.

This is not our country. But these issues matter. An America with diminished legitimacy and isolationist tendencies will create a power vacuum. China has already noted that. They have suddenly positioned themselves to be the champions of free trade and climate change. They see an opportunity, and it is obvious why.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by geotag277

In honor of his swearing in, just have to point out how Trump is such a nauseating narcissist.

Hillary isn't posting the tweets unless they're market with "-H" as mentioned on her page. You are the worst.

[Heartofthecity]

Originally Posted by geotag277

In honor of his swearing in, just have to point out how Trump is such a nauseating narcissist.

Hahaha. One of her staffers had a bit too much confidence

[rousseau]

Gawd help me, cause I can't help myself. Here I go responding again.

Originally Posted by geotag277

Let's just forget the fact that Obama was elected with very little experience on a message of change and diametrically opposed to political insiders such as Hillary Clinton, whom he resoundingly defeated in the 2008 democratic primaries and resoundingly defeated career politician establishment Republican John McCain in the election.

No, this is 2017, political experience is all that matters.

The issue is not political experience. The issue is having any knowledge, expertise or experience in the relevant field whatsoever outside of the hyper-partisan wingnut realm that DeVos has spent her life in.

Originally Posted by geotag277

...she...fully expected Franken to launch into a long winded rant, instead of having an actual dialogue on the topic which would actually be pertinent to exploring this particular individual's credentials.

Gawd help me again, but I'm going to ask you this: How on earth do you have a dialogue on education topics with the bloody secretary of education when she doesn't have the faintest fucking clue what you're talking about?

Editorial: Betsy DeVos embarrassed herself and should be rejected by the Senate

And how would schools be measured — based on whether they meet a certain standard of proficiency, or how much they improve over time? DeVos floundered trying to address this issue raised by Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.), clearly unfamiliar with one of the central questions in school reform. As Franken said in a deserved rebuke, “This is a subject that has been debated in the education community for years.”

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/edito...119-story.html

These are the kinds of people Trump is putting in charge.

[niwell]

Both rousseau and csbvan have far more patience than I do. Good on you both.

I hate this bullshit about how we have to "give Trump a chance" or "let's see where things go" or whatever fake bi-partisan nonsense people want to spew. I'm also sick of the liberals who, you know, can "appreciate every viewpoint". It's as bad as the worst of identity politics.

Yeah, eff that. I've tried reading alt-right stuff - it's garbage. I tried looking at Trump's platform - it's even more garbage. I don't see why it's wrong to just dismiss it outright as a dumpster fire.

And FWIW Hillary was pretty shit as well, not being "hyper-partisan".

[SpongeG]

how about destabilised people?

i saw this in a posting on facebook

Okay, this must be prophetic. Did you all know that Trump is 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old today!!! On his Inauguration!!! 777 symbolizes God, the completion of creation, the lineage of Jesus, and the adversary of 666. Whoa.

[geotag277]

Well let's see. You have csbvan who seems content to ignore all the words in my post to make some compliment to China regarding their mastery of promoting competency from within and free trade.

You have rousseau who is ready to indict "anti-intellectual" Devos on her qualifications to run the Department of Education, yet without a hint of irony admits ignorance on how the Department of Education is run, the policy scope of the Department of Education, and furthermore signature Department of Education issues such as No Child Left Behind and School Choice. As an aside he, again without a hint of irony, responds with a buzzfeed-esque headline when I claim that buzzfeed style articles are exactly why he enjoys Franken's political grandstanding.

Finally you have niwell, who assumes anyone who dares to defend Trump or his cabinet must be a racist white supremacist alt-right Hitler lover, because obviously there is no one else in the entire world who would defend him.

Italian bikes, Toronto culture, Vancouver culture, architecture. These individuals have contributed some of the most insightful and intelligent commentary on some of these topics on this forum. Yet when it comes to politics, their brains collectively disintegrate and they are unable to form a coherent fully realized thought in their heads.

If you guys want to discuss the Department of Education, it's policy scope, it's failures over the last few decades, why school choice might be a tool to bring America's education system more in line with the decentralized Canadian system, and why Devos' ideas might be beneficial for American education in a way that Obama and Bush before him failed, we can have that conversation.

But if you don't want (or more accurately, are completely unable) to have that conversation, at least have the self awareness to understand the ones being anti-intellectual and ignorant are you.

[niwell]

^It's funny what you assume. Because you're completely wrong. Jesus christ for someone who yells at people for being hyper-partisan you are just far worse.

EDIT: When did I ever invoke Hitler, or racism? You are beyond delusional.

[whiteford]

If anything Trump is going to make America great again
. Most likely better than ever before.

[SignalHillHiker]

My favourite headline in the Telegram lately...

Trump is president; we’re all going to die

I flew down to Pennsylvania back in August to go to a Trump rally. I got within about five metres of the man.

I bought a souvenir hat that still sits on a side-table in my bedroom.

At the time, I was following American politics sort of the same way I follow the Toronto Maple Leafs. Since November the Leafs have been more fun to watch.

In hindsight, that sort of politics-as-entertainment gawking was part of the problem.

Going to the rally was a sort of unseemly disaster tourism; at the time I felt like an actual modern-day fascist was running for president, and I wanted to see one of the fascist rallies first-hand.

At the time, I thought there was zero chance that Trump would win.

And now here we are.

There’s Trump himself, and already the sad little Trump clones here in Canada, gleefully trying to ape his slogans and tactics, thirsty for power.

Trump’s inaugural speech was nothing short of terrifying — it rolled over you like a dystopian caricature. He was bitter, spiteful, angry and dark.

http://www.thetelegram.com/opinion/c...ng-to-die.html

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by geotag277

Again, I was a pretty big Bernie Sanders supporter, but I did find most of the complains about Trump (and they continue to be) absurd.

No surprise. Pretty much the same used car salesman in different outfits

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by geotag277

I'm sorry, if we go back to 2008 are we going to see posts from you regarding Obama's lack of experience as a jr. senator?

I call things as I see them, and you are a partisan leftist, who is hypocritical, and bends over backwards to repeat political talking points.

There is a middle ground in politics, and if you and other people like you pretend there isn't, political discourse can go no where.

Again, I was a pretty big Bernie Sanders supporter, but I did find most of the complains about Trump (and they continue to be) absurd.

Climate change policy, supreme court justices, his tax plan to reduce tax on the wealthy as part of a repatriation play - those are somewhat interesting things to talk about and real points of contention concerning his administration.

Repeated vacuous calls of "anti intellectualism", calling him literally Hitler, assuming Trump voters got "duped" but Hillary and Obama voters got a great deal, showing a 6 minute clip of obvious vacuous political theater in which a cabinet member was given less than 15 seconds to talk etc. It's all just lazy political garbage, and you know it.

Yeah, victory rallies, hounding members of the press, wanting big military parades, singling out ethnic minorities what's Hitlerian about that?

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by whiteford

If anything Trump is going to make America great again
. Most likely better than ever before.

He'll just keep saying that over and over again until quite a few people believe it.

[SkydivePilot]

Well, in the end, it came down to Trump and Hillary. Canada certainly has its own problems as well, with the likes of: Justin; Morneau; Nutley; Butts; Wynne.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

No surprise. Pretty much the same used car salesman in different outfits

Sure, as much as used car salesmen fits the bill towards anyone running for the presidency south of our border.

Two aspects I think would have made it "worth it" for Sanders to win, are he would have vetoed willy nilly environmental regulations and hair brained tax reduction schemes for the wealthy. I also think he would have very much followed Obama's philosophy with the supreme court, which is another positive.

Of course he had wild ideas and wild rhetoric during the primaries, but as a legislator he is known for his compromise and reaching across the aisle. He would have to put up with far less republican theatrics regarding "this individual is literally evil" compared to what Hillary would have put up with.

In all, he would have been a pretty perfect foil to a republican controlled house and senate.

Shoulda been Bernie.

[rousseau]

The vacuousness is just unrelenting.

Brexit leader Nigel Farage moving to the US: report

Trump’s campaign manager, Kellyanne Conway, later said that the president-elect and Farage had a "very productive" meeting.

“I think they enjoy each other’s company, and they absolutely had an opportunity to talk about freedom and winning and what this all means for the world,” she said.

At first I thought this had to be an Onion article, but then it dawned on me that of course the subject matter of most any conversation with the orange one would revolve around "freedom and winning."

Remember a dozen years ago when people used to make fun of vacuousness?



You younger folks might not realize this so palpably, but one of the main projects of the counterculture of the 1960s and 70s was to satirize the emptiness of rightwing rhetoric (Vietnam, Christian fundamentalism, upright "propriety" etc.) in order to expose it and defang it. Those of us growing up in its wake mistakenly thought that it had been dealt a lethal blow, but then Reagan happened, and for the next few decades the generalized left and right narratives tussled with each other without either side really gaining the upper hand.

But the pendulum has swung, and now an alt-right counterculture constituting a blunt sledgehammer of stupidity has bashed its way into the hearts and minds of millions of rural Americans who, it turns out, didn't actually appreciate being made fun of.

The end game? Trump.

That'll show'em, those stupid libtards with their facts and jokes.

And the astounding thing is, they may have done it. With Trump they've gone so far into the maelstrom of swirlingly idiotic caricature that he's looking unsatirizable. Add the swarms of brainwashed social media zombies into the mix and you've got a juggernaut impervious to reason.

Or comedy. Twelve years ago even a Bush acolyte would have let his guard down occasionally and admit that Jon Stewart was on the mark sometimes, but these days?

Not looking like it. Rather, it looks like it's all on message, all the time.

It's chilling. The two things to watch in the coming years will be how far the orange one can go and how the rest of us will grapple with the rise of the alt-right/neo-fascist movement.

No joke.

[Bcasey25raptor]

History repeats itself, beginning to look like the 1930s politically.

Hope to god Canada can survive this and Trudeau manages to win another term in 2019 until all of this blows over.