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  #41  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 2:30 AM
Buckeye Native 001 Buckeye Native 001 is offline
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Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
I get the impression whites from the Northeast hold on to ethnic identities more than in other parts of the country.
You kinda see bits of this in some Midwest cities but it's definitely something that happens more often east of the Mississippi. I'm only third generation American on my mothers side and had an oddly large number of tantes growing up because my great grandparents were German immigrants. Cincinnatians with last names like Mecklenburg and Schottlekotte aren't all that unusual around the Tri-State and the city's Oktoberfest is one of the largest outside Germany.
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  #42  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 2:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001 View Post
You kinda see bits of this in some Midwest cities but it's definitely something that happens more often east of the Mississippi. I'm only third generation American on my mothers side and had an oddly large number of tantes growing up because my great grandparents were German immigrants. Cincinnatians with last names like Mecklenburg and Schottlekotte aren't all that unusual around the Tri-State.
Plus, it's been historically harder for Germans to be all German-pride in America. I'd imagine that's put a bit of a damper on things. You don't see a ton of English pride either, despite English being the third (?) most-common white ethnicity in the country. It makes sense that places in the Midwest which are mostly of German and English admixture aren't as loud and proud as places with a bunch of Irish or Mediterranean groups.
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  #43  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 2:50 AM
Buckeye Native 001 Buckeye Native 001 is offline
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Oh yeah, us Germans are definitely not the "loud and proud" types for sure (being the enemy in two world wars and committing horrific atrocities hinders the collective pride). We're mostly just humorlessly efficient. I'm guessing a lot of people of German descent with the last names "Smith" and "Brown" were likely "Schmidt" and "Braun" before the 1930s and 40s.

If anything, religious identity (especially Catholic in places like Cincinnati, Chicago, et cetera) are more important than nationality.
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  #44  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 1:07 PM
montréaliste montréaliste is offline
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Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
And that's the thing, right? I know my family genealogy on both sides (except the Ukrainian great-grandfather's line) back to their Irish counties of origin. For some branches of the family it's easy, as they never left Ireland in the first place or they went back. But I know without a doubt, there's English and Welsh and some Viking in there as well.

The Irish themselves are not really "Irish" anymore, and haven't been in a looong time. Most Irish have a percentage of Scandinavian admixture; Dublin was founded by Vikings, after all. Fun fact: Iceland's admixture has a substantial Irish component because the first Viking settlers to Iceland brought a bunch of Irish thralls with them from their holdings in Ireland.

And then you have about 1000 years of English and Scottish overlordship, with all the intermixing and raping which comes with that. Throw in some Spanish blood down south around Cork (i.e. Black Irish) and you've got a whole admixture stew. This is why 23 And Me doesn't report separate categories for Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and English: it's all just called "British and Irish". There aren't enough genetic markers uniquely Irish among their reference populations to distinguish "Irish" from "British".

So . . . no one is really Irish anymore. No doubt I have a good degree of English colonizer blood. But the family will pretend it's Welsh

You forgot the Norman in the millenary admixture. The Norman invasion which became Anglo-Norman paving the way to domination by the English.

I'm maybe 1/4 Irish. My last name's Irish. My great-great granddad had come in the 1840's and remarried after his first wife had died, but his son came to Canada 20 years after his dad and they didn't get along, so he changed the surname's spelling. Both my maternal and paternal ancestors have Irish and French Canadian and Austrian origins, many born in the US and reintegrating Canada.

I lived in Ireland in the eighties and visited last summer so my sons and my wife could get the taste of it. I think one of the enduring traits in Irish culture that was passed on is a peculiar sense of humor and fatalism that I easily detect in my family.
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  #45  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 2:10 PM
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Interesting topic. Due to the shared geography and history of Ireland and the UK going back to when the British Isles were settled, it doesn’t come as a surprise that there are very strong links between the two nations, a situation that continues to this day. I’ve long been confused by the

My mother’s family are all from Tipperary, but I certainly wouldn’t identify as Irish.

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  #46  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 3:31 PM
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Plus, it's been historically harder for Germans to be all German-pride in America. I'd imagine that's put a bit of a damper on things. You don't see a ton of English pride either, despite English being the third (?) most-common white ethnicity in the country. It makes sense that places in the Midwest which are mostly of German and English admixture aren't as loud and proud as places with a bunch of Irish or Mediterranean groups.
My maternal grandmother was German and almost never mentioned being German and actually never trusted Germany/ Germans...side effect of living through WW2. My maternal grandfather was from England and never even mentioned England. So yeah...these two ethnicities don't get a lot of love. Meanwhile, my Italian half of the family were in your face with the Italian culture. Even my non Italian side of the family knew how to cook sauce.

I have noticed German cultural pride is making somewhat of a resurgence.
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  #47  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 4:11 PM
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living in the heart of one of chicago's most traditionally german neighrborhoods (lincoln square) german-american culture and identity is still mildly alive here, though by no means robust.

it mostly manifests itself in the few hang-on german restaurants in the area and the big Maifest and Oktoberfest celebrations every spring and fall.

although probably no Maifest this year
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  #48  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 4:19 PM
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This sounds a bit dismissive but I do honestly think that a lot of people who have mixed ancestry often focus on the one that is more "exotic" or has more "cool" factor.

English for whatever reason has neither, whereas since the late 1980s at least "Irish" is kind of a cool and "in" identity to have.

Things can also change when it comes to which ancestries are seen as desirable ("cool") and which are not.

For example here in Canada in both francophone and anglophone regions as recently as when I was a kid most people used to downplay their indigenous heritage. Now it's very much in vogue to talk up one's indigenous blood - and predictably lots of people play up what they have if it's very little and they know nothing about the culture.

I myself have a bit of indigenous blood but you'd never hear me make any claims on that identity. Not that I have anything against it. It's just that it has no relevance for me (positive or negative), and it would be disrespectful towards actual indigenous people for me to do so. I have quite a few people in my entourage who are basically as indigenous as I am (basically, very little) and go on about "their people" all the time. It makes me wanna barf.

From what I gather from the Elizabeth Warren "Pocahontas" issue, and the African-American impostor activist stories, similar stuff is going on in the U.S. too.
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  #49  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 4:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
living in the heart of one of chicago's most traditionally german neighrborhoods (lincoln square) german-american culture and identity is still mildly alive here, though by no means robust.

it mostly manifests itself in the few hang-on german restaurants in the area and the big Maifest and Oktoberfest celebrations every spring and fall.

although probably no Maifest this year
I assume in the few "German"-ish urban neighborhoods (i.e. Lincoln Square; Ridgewood, Queens) there must have been post-WWII ethnic German immigration to the area.
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  #50  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 5:14 PM
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Originally Posted by nito View Post
Interesting topic. Due to the shared geography and history of Ireland and the UK going back to when the British Isles were settled, it doesn’t come as a surprise that there are very strong links between the two nations, a situation that continues to this day.
Irish immigration to London is much more of a 20th century phenomenon than a 19th century one, in contrast to North America, Australia, and Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow.
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  #51  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 5:24 PM
Buckeye Native 001 Buckeye Native 001 is offline
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
I assume in the few "German"-ish urban neighborhoods (i.e. Lincoln Square; Ridgewood, Queens) there must have been post-WWII ethnic German immigration to the area.
Well before that, probably. Lots of German immigrants (including my great grandparents) left in the 1920s because of the horrific economic conditions post-WWI. That, and Chicago has almost always been the Midwest's premier draw for immigrants. Mine only ended up in Cincinnati because of their sponsors.
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  #52  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 5:25 PM
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There's been some recent Irish immigration to Toronto, largely in the construction industry, but there is no enclave or concentration of Irish immigrants that I know of

https://torontolife.com/city/the-celtic-invasion/.

I think the last "Irish" neighborhood in Toronto was Trefann Court/Corktown which probably held out until the 1960s.
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  #53  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 5:27 PM
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Well before that, probably. Lots of German immigrants (including my great grandparents) left in the 1920s because of the horrific economic conditions post-WWI
I'm not saying they only became German because of the post-war immigrants; rather they likely went there because of the German presence. I'm saying there must have been some postwar immigration if there's still a "German" character today.
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  #54  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 6:33 PM
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I'm not saying they only became German because of the post-war immigrants; rather they likely went there because of the German presence. I'm saying there must have been some postwar immigration if there's still a "German" character today.
i didn't say that lincoln square has a "german" character today, i said it still has a lingering "german-american" character.

but it's fairly faint (and fading). if you visited my neighborhood and Maifest or Oktoberfest weren't going on, and you didn't happen to stumble upon one of the handful of german restaurants/bars still left, you wouldn't walk away with much of a "german" or even "german-american" impression of lincoln square these days.

it's also been slow-track gentrifying for the past 2 decades. there are far more thai, sushi, mexican, vietnamese, indian, etc. places these days (or at last there were until very, very recently ) than there are german restaurants. german food has MASSIVELY fallen out of favor with the US palate over the past several generations. which is a damn shame IMO, because i freaking love german food, even if it doesn't typically rate 8 billion on the scoville scale.


i do not know the extent of post-war german immigration to lincoln square, but i don't think it was anything terribly special. certainly nothing like post-war polish immigration to chicago's polish nabes.
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  #55  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 7:03 PM
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In the 1920s, German community leaders tried to resurrect ethnic culture, recognition of German contribution to American society, and the respectability of the old fatherland. Generally these efforts were in vain, since it was difficult to build on a German American population which had lost interest in ethnic issues. On some occasions such as German Day or May Festival, people continued to publicly demonstrate ethnic pride though with reserved enthusiasm. In the early 1930s, for the most part they chose to ignore the Nazis rise to power in Germany, but they also failed to speak out against it. To some German American leaders Hitler represented Germany's reclamation of power and thus a chance to restore respectability. Others, among them the politically astute Otto Schmidt, issued warnings about political developments in Germany, but these were soft voices, almost inaudible. When Germany became, once again, America's enemy, German Americans kept their ethnicity to themselves, and they were not very eager to revive it in the 1950s and '60s. Those who became politically, culturally, and economically active among Chicago's Germans in the late twentieth century were, for the most part, post–World War II immigrants who had not lived through the legacy of anti-German sentiments during two world wars.

For over 150 years generation after generation of German immigrants came to Chicago, constructing a multifaceted, vibrant ethnic community, while at the same time building a Midwestern city. If it seems sometimes difficult to outline their specific contribution to the city's development, it is because of their ubiquitous presence.
http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohisto...pages/512.html

Sounds about right. German American culture couldn't really recover from WWI.
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  #56  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 7:23 PM
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I think part of the phenomenon we see with the Irish in the US and Canada is that historically oppressed or conquered people seem to maintain their group identity longer and more intensely than those who weren't. You see this with African Americans and Native Americans, you see it with Jewish and Irish white people and you see it with the Hmong compared to other recent Asian immigrants.
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  #57  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 7:52 PM
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There was some postwar German migration to U.S./Canada, esp. ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe. But most went to Germany.
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  #58  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 7:57 PM
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I think part of the phenomenon we see with the Irish in the US and Canada is that historically oppressed or conquered people seem to maintain their group identity longer and more intensely than those who weren't. You see this with African Americans and Native Americans, you see it with Jewish and Irish white people and you see it with the Hmong compared to other recent Asian immigrants.
Eh I think plenty of Chinese and Korean immigrants hold onto their group identity.
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  #59  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 8:04 PM
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Eh I think plenty of Chinese and Korean immigrants hold onto their group identity.
Seriously. Especially Koreans, and even the ones who have been in the US a while, born and raised.

I went to school with plenty of Korean-Americans and with every opportunity, they had to talk about being Korean. I even knew Korean Catholics who, for whatever reason, didn't just go to any Catholic church, they went specifically to Korean Catholic churches.
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  #60  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 8:50 PM
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15% of Canadians identify as Irish-Canadian. This number jumps between 20-30% in Atlantic Canada.
St. John's and the Avalon Peninsula of Newfoundland is probably the most "Irish" place outside of Ireland by descent.

Newfoundland Irish are actually pre-Famine, so it's a rather different situation from New England where you had a massive Irish influx 200 years after the ancestors of the Yankees came.

And it's actually undercounted in the census, since a lot write "Canadian." The city is 45% Catholic but only one-third report Irish origins. Virtually all Catholics there are of Irish ancestry.
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