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  #81  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2020, 8:18 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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Originally Posted by goat314 View Post
That's also how I've always seen the Twin Cities. I remember visiting as a kid and being shocked at how clean and orderly the city was in comparison to most Midwestern cities. It had very little blight, visible poverty, or industrial scars in comparison to the Rust Belt regions. I think this map shows how much on the fringe of the core Midwest the Twin Cities are. For the record, I like the Twin Cities and think they do way more with what they got than other places in the region. It has a really progressive vibe that is somewhat of an outlier in the region. Even Chicago feels a bit more conservative in my opinion, which is probably why people liken it to the Pacific Northwest at times. Even it's skyline favors something like Portland or Seattle more so than any other Midwestern city.

and i was equally shocked in the same way moving from cleveland to columbus or visiting indianapolis. i freakin grew up next to a steel plant, so the tidiness of minneapolis doesn't come as any big surprise, these cities are all super tidy to me lol. except as i said, the nice and very urban downtown happening. that is definitely their thing. as for any other new apt construction around town, honestly it all looks the same in these cities to me. you could put a brand new modern cookie cutter urban apt building or even tower with some retail slots under it from minneapolis in columbus or portland or anywhere else and who would know where you were? its just the current style of the era everywhere. that said, these are all very healthy cities and are attracting people, so they are doing things right -- and good for them.
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  #82  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2020, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Has anyone here lived/worked in both Cincinnati and the true South? Like Mobile, AL? Aside form myself, probably not. They are worlds away.

Kentucky is not and never was the South. Tennessee in 2020 is barely the South. Knoxville was never the South. Nashville has turned into a cartoon.

But hey, Kentucky never joined the Confederacy, but let's post a thread in 2020 about Cincinnati being "southern". Swish, you win. You got the attention you wanted.

I rode my bicycle in Kentucky this past Saturday. Did I see any confederate flags? No, but I saw two Canadian flags.
Kentucky and Tennessee aren't southern?? How? Have you ever been south of Lexington and heard the accents around there? The state's biggest cultural exports are fried chicken, bluegrass/country music, bourbon, and tobacco. About as southern as it gets. Tennessee is Dolly Parton and the Grand Ole Opry, the center of country music (Nashville), center of blues music and bbq (Memphis). They're both very much southern, in my opinion. Northern Kentucky (Boone, Kenton, and Campbell Counties) are more midwestern, but even those places feel like they've got a foot in the south and a foot in the midwest. They have a baseball team named the Florence Y'alls for christ sake. And confederate flags are everywhere-- you'll see quite a bit of them on the Ohio side, for sure. But they're definitely more prevalent in Kentucky and points south.
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  #83  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2020, 11:25 PM
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Much like the person earlier talking about there being 2 Midwests, there are also 2 Souths. The Deep South which KY and TN are not (outside of the Memphis region) - and I guess what you would call the Upper South. Once you hit Birmingham/Atlanta and go south it has always felt different to me that the areas north.
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  #84  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 12:00 AM
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And Texas...
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  #85  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 12:21 AM
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The South is very diverse. There are more than 2 Souths as categorized by vibes or culture or whatever. And also that vibe/culture/etc is not constrained to state boundaries.
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  #86  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by CVG View Post
Much like the person earlier talking about there being 2 Midwests, there are also 2 Souths. The Deep South which KY and TN are not (outside of the Memphis region) - and I guess what you would call the Upper South. Once you hit Birmingham/Atlanta and go south it has always felt different to me that the areas north.
I always looked at things this way too. Kind of how the Tri State region and New England are both the very definitions of “Northeast” yet are still distinct from one-another.

But at the end of the day, about 25% of both Tennessee’s and Kentucky’s populations in 1860 were enslaved blacks. That pretty much closes the case on whether TN or KY are Southern or not.
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  #87  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 1:15 AM
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Originally Posted by CVG View Post
Much like the person earlier talking about there being 2 Midwests, there are also 2 Souths. The Deep South which KY and TN are not (outside of the Memphis region) - and I guess what you would call the Upper South. Once you hit Birmingham/Atlanta and go south it has always felt different to me that the areas north.
There's more than two different "Souths", actually, which relates to the regions' settlement patterns and the amount that the regions subsequently coalesced into a unified identity. Off the top of my head, we have:

1. Tidewater. This is the oldest "South", and is the South found historically in Virginia, the Carolinas, and on the Delmarva Peninsula and in southern Maryland. Pockets of Tidewater can be found in Georgia (Savannah) and even in New Jersey (Salem Country). Tidewater culture developed as an agrarian plantation-based society with a heavy reliance on cash crops, whether tobacco as was the case in Virginia or rice as was the case in the Carolinas. During the American Revolution, Tidewater was one of the three divergent identities in the Thirteen Colonies. While historically prevalent, Tidewater has been shrinking for the past half century (at least!), as its northern periphery gets swallowed by the Northeast -- a process that likely began with the development of Baltimore as an industrial center -- and one which is also assimilating the bulk of its historical urban areas (Richmond, Fredericksburg, the Hampton Roads).

2. The Deep South. This is the "South" we think of when we think of the South, but it is also very much an antebellum development, one that took the Tidewater agrarian slave economy to new extremes with a new cash crop -- cotton. At the time of the Civil War, the heart of the Deep South was in a large bottomland region known as the Mississippi Delta, which spreads across much of Arkansas and Mississippi and into Tennessee and perhaps the southernmost peripheries of the adjoining states as well. Nowadays, its cultural capital has clearly moved to Atlanta, with its main conurbations spreading along the piedmont northeast of there.

3. The Bayou Bottomlands. This region has a different settlement history entirely: centered on New Orleans, of the major cities of New France (and subsequently New Spain), it retains a much more European flavor, one unlike anything else found in the South (or in America in general, for that matter). The Bayou has a different accent, a different cuisine, different values, and different everything relative to Tidewater or the Deep South, but has largely gotten subsumed into the surrounding Southern cultures.

4. Appalachia. The Appalachian Mountains function as a boundary between the Northeastern regions and Midwest in the North, and developed its own distinct subculture, one which subsequently spread along the early pioneer roads and the highlands surrounding the Ohio Valley. Appalachia, as a cultural region, can loosely be identified as the montane region to the east, the Ozarks and Ouachitas to the west, and the Cumberland and Tennessee river valleys in between, making Nashville the dominant center of Appalachian culture. It is also worth nothing here that there are some subtle differences between Northern and Southern reflexes of Appalachian identity, though these reflexes are perhaps becoming lost nowadays. Appalachia isn't really "Northern" or "Southern" in the sense that it didn't develop out of either the urban cultures of New England or the Mid-Atlantic, as Northern cultures did, or the agrarian culture of Tidewater, as Southern culture did, but rather developed in the backwoods on the peripheries of both and expanded to fill the buffer region in between.

5. Texas. Much like how the Deep South is Tidewater's baby, Texas is the Deep South's baby. Texas is also characterized by a strong Hispanic influence, indicative of how the region was first settled by Spain before Southern pioneers began emigrating over the Mexican border and subsequently forcing Texas' independence from the Mexican Empire. While the Bayou Bottomlands may be the most different Southern culture, Texas is the most bombastic and the one with the strongest national aspirations of its own (i.e. Texas tends to see itself as an integral nation in the anthropological sense more than any other Southern culture). This may also be helped by the fact that Texas' cultural borders are roughly analogous to Texas' state borders, something that tends to be quite unusual in the political vs. anthropological subdivision of the United States.
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  #88  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 2:33 AM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
There's more than two different "Souths", actually, which relates to the regions' settlement patterns and the amount that the regions subsequently coalesced into a unified identity. Off the top of my head, we have:

1. Tidewater. This is the oldest "South", and is the South found historically in Virginia, the Carolinas, and on the Delmarva Peninsula and in southern Maryland. Pockets of Tidewater can be found in Georgia (Savannah) and even in New Jersey (Salem Country). Tidewater culture developed as an agrarian plantation-based society with a heavy reliance on cash crops, whether tobacco as was the case in Virginia or rice as was the case in the Carolinas. During the American Revolution, Tidewater was one of the three divergent identities in the Thirteen Colonies. While historically prevalent, Tidewater has been shrinking for the past half century (at least!), as its northern periphery gets swallowed by the Northeast -- a process that likely began with the development of Baltimore as an industrial center -- and one which is also assimilating the bulk of its historical urban areas (Richmond, Fredericksburg, the Hampton Roads).

2. The Deep South. This is the "South" we think of when we think of the South, but it is also very much an antebellum development, one that took the Tidewater agrarian slave economy to new extremes with a new cash crop -- cotton. At the time of the Civil War, the heart of the Deep South was in a large bottomland region known as the Mississippi Delta, which spreads across much of Arkansas and Mississippi and into Tennessee and perhaps the southernmost peripheries of the adjoining states as well. Nowadays, its cultural capital has clearly moved to Atlanta, with its main conurbations spreading along the piedmont northeast of there.

3. The Bayou Bottomlands. This region has a different settlement history entirely: centered on New Orleans, of the major cities of New France (and subsequently New Spain), it retains a much more European flavor, one unlike anything else found in the South (or in America in general, for that matter). The Bayou has a different accent, a different cuisine, different values, and different everything relative to Tidewater or the Deep South, but has largely gotten subsumed into the surrounding Southern cultures.

4. Appalachia. The Appalachian Mountains function as a boundary between the Northeastern regions and Midwest in the North, and developed its own distinct subculture, one which subsequently spread along the early pioneer roads and the highlands surrounding the Ohio Valley. Appalachia, as a cultural region, can loosely be identified as the montane region to the east, the Ozarks and Ouachitas to the west, and the Cumberland and Tennessee river valleys in between, making Nashville the dominant center of Appalachian culture. It is also worth nothing here that there are some subtle differences between Northern and Southern reflexes of Appalachian identity, though these reflexes are perhaps becoming lost nowadays. Appalachia isn't really "Northern" or "Southern" in the sense that it didn't develop out of either the urban cultures of New England or the Mid-Atlantic, as Northern cultures did, or the agrarian culture of Tidewater, as Southern culture did, but rather developed in the backwoods on the peripheries of both and expanded to fill the buffer region in between.

5. Texas. Much like how the Deep South is Tidewater's baby, Texas is the Deep South's baby. Texas is also characterized by a strong Hispanic influence, indicative of how the region was first settled by Spain before Southern pioneers began emigrating over the Mexican border and subsequently forcing Texas' independence from the Mexican Empire. While the Bayou Bottomlands may be the most different Southern culture, Texas is the most bombastic and the one with the strongest national aspirations of its own (i.e. Texas tends to see itself as an integral nation in the anthropological sense more than any other Southern culture). This may also be helped by the fact that Texas' cultural borders are roughly analogous to Texas' state borders, something that tends to be quite unusual in the political vs. anthropological subdivision of the United States.
Exactly! Very good synopsis from the top of your head - similar to the point I was making but more detailed.
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  #89  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 3:32 AM
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Thanks for that rundown. The South gets more interesting the more I look into it, I once thought it could be written off as the “racist, less advanced part of the country” like a lot of people think in the other regions of the country. That may be true to some extent, but it denies the fact that it’s far more than that.
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  #90  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 5:54 AM
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I would add two additional sub-regions to your list:
1. The Mid-South. This would be the area that includes Nashville at its center up toward Louisville and west toward Springfield and Tulsa encompassing the Ozarks. This is the border between the Midwest and the rest of the South, with elements of Midwestern and Appalachia culture. This also encompasses the industrial areas of northern Alabama and Mississippi.

https://www.nwtf.org/about/big-six/mid-south

2. The Southern Piedmont. Different than the Deep South and more historical Tidewater areas along the coast, the Piedmont is a rapidly growing area with an increasingly industrial economy. This includes cities like Charlotte, Raleigh, Durham and Greenville. The culture is a blend of Appalachia and Deep South but with more Mid-Atlantic influence. Atlanta is at the edge of this region where it turns into the Deep South.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_271910023
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  #91  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 7:27 AM
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I've never been to the Pacific Northwest, but I have been to Denver. Minneapolis is more like Denver than it is like any Midwestern city. Minneapolis is a bit more urban, and a bit more artsy bohemian and less hippy than Denver but in general they feel like very similar places. A lot of the rest of the Midwest seems like another region to me (although outstate Minnesota farm country is definitely Midwestern).
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  #92  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Has anyone here lived/worked in both Cincinnati and the true South? Like Mobile, AL? Aside form myself, probably not. They are worlds away.

Kentucky is not and never was the South. Tennessee in 2020 is barely the South. Knoxville was never the South. Nashville has turned into a cartoon.

But hey, Kentucky never joined the Confederacy, but let's post a thread in 2020 about Cincinnati being "southern". Swish, you win. You got the attention you wanted.

I rode my bicycle in Kentucky this past Saturday. Did I see any confederate flags? No, but I saw two Canadian flags.
Tennessee is 2020 is barely the South? LOL Man, you need to get out of Nashville, because the whole state is South as shit.
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  #93  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 1:18 PM
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Tennessee is 2020 is barely the South? LOL Man, you need to get out of Nashville, because the whole state is South as shit.
that seems like a very metropolitan view. i spend a lot of time in rural illinois i mean theres confederate flags from I-80 to the ohio river in illinois.
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  #94  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 2:48 PM
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that seems like a very metropolitan view. i spend a lot of time in rural illinois i mean theres confederate flags from I-80 to the ohio river in illinois.
Yea that’s the south too
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  #95  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 4:01 PM
Buckeye Native 001 Buckeye Native 001 is offline
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that seems like a very metropolitan view. i spend a lot of time in rural illinois i mean theres confederate flags from I-80 to the ohio river in illinois.

Oh hell, there's Confederate flags everywhere. Even in Arizona there's a small but vocal contingent (mind you, this area was only barely a territory after the Gadsden Purchase prior to the Civil War and didn't become a state until 1912) still trying to fight the "war of northern aggression"

Ditto rural parts of Southern California.

Maybe it was just the school district I attended in Cincinnati, but in elementary school history classes, it was made very clear to us that we were on the right side of the war, the Ohio River was literally the divide between free and slave states, and the Cincinnati area (both in Ohio and Kentucky) played integral parts in the Underground Railroad. Hell, I attended a conference back in 2011 that was held at the National Underground Railroad Museum in Cincinnati.
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  #96  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 4:04 PM
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the confederate flag in 2020 has less to do with "the south", and more to do with white supremacy.

you can find the confederate flag being flown in all corners of rural america where shitty people live.
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  #97  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 4:10 PM
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the confederate flag in 2020 has less to do with "the south", and more to do with white supremacy.

you can find the confederate flag being flown in all corners of rural america where shitty people live.
yeah i wasn't intending on making a direct connection to the south. i have a fairly well developed idea of what the south is and know what the rural midwest is and physically cross that interface/frontier fairly often and find it interesting.
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  #98  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001 View Post
Maybe it was just the school district I attended in Cincinnati, but in elementary school history classes, it was made very clear to us that we were on the right side of the war, the Ohio River was literally the divide between free and slave states, and the Cincinnati area (both in Ohio and Kentucky) played integral parts in the Underground Railroad. Hell, I attended a conference back in 2011 that was held at the National Underground Railroad Museum in Cincinnati.
that's interesting. i barely remember discussing the civil war (as far as sides, etc) at all in primary/secondary except from the standpoint of it essentially being widespread localized violence, but with an emphasis on the abolition and politics of slavery, dredd scott of course in st. louis, etc.
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  #99  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 4:26 PM
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IMHO the "southern-ish" parts of the Midwest are:

1. Bottom 2/3rds of so of Ohio
2. Basically all of Indiana save for NW Indiana
3. Illinois south of Chicagoland/Quad Cities area.
4. Missouri (with the Bootheel/Ozarks truly part of the South) - though increasingly less so as you go westward.
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  #100  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 4:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001 View Post
Maybe it was just the school district I attended in Cincinnati, but in elementary school history classes, it was made very clear to us that we were on the right side of the war, the Ohio River was literally the divide between free and slave states, and the Cincinnati area (both in Ohio and Kentucky) played integral parts in the Underground Railroad. Hell, I attended a conference back in 2011 that was held at the National Underground Railroad Museum in Cincinnati.
More recently, Kentucky was also a Jim Crow state.
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