Is Cincinnati Southern?

[eschaton]

There are basically two different cultures in the Midwest - the Upper Midwest and the Lower Midwest.

The Upper Midwest was mainly founded by Yankees who moved westward into the Great Lakes littoral via the Erie Canal. The Yankee roots can be heard in the accents and seen in the vernacular architecture (lots of wood frame, few rowhouses). It has absolutely zero southern influence, except in limited areas where the "hillbilly highway" brought white southerners northward.

The Lower Midwest was settled via the Ohio River by Pennsylvanians and Virginians. The Pennsylvania roots can be seen in the more rowhouse-like vernacular architecture in Cinci and STL. The southern roots are very clear in places if you listen to the accent. Over the 20th century though St. Louis has become increasingly influenced by Chicago's accent, meaning Cincinnati is the sole remaining large city in the Lower Midwest with a distinct "midland" accent.

I think that the substantive German immigration to Cincinnati makes it feel a lot less southern than most of southern Ohio though. I have met people in rural Ohio counties north of Columbus with a bit of a drawl/twang however.

[uaarkson]

If the Twin Cities feel more like PNW it's because of the relative lack of urban decay compared with the lower Midwest/Great Lakes.

With that said, culturally it doesn't get more midwest than Minnesota. Ope.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I have met people in rural Ohio counties north of Columbus with a bit of a drawl/twang however.

Indiana has drawl practically everywhere. I have a Muncie-raised colleague with a deep drawl. Outside of NW Indiana and maybe affluent parts of Indy, it seems everywhere.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by eschaton

The Upper Midwest..... has absolutely zero southern influence, except in limited areas where the "hillbilly highway" brought white southerners northward.

don't forget about the millions of southern blacks who came to milwaukee, chicago, detroit, and cleveland during the great migrations. they certainly brought a lot of southern influence with them too.

Originally Posted by eschaton

Over the 20th century though St. Louis has become increasingly influenced by Chicago's accent, meaning Cincinnati is the sole remaining large city in the Lower Midwest with a distinct "midland" accent.

true, st. louis is often depicted as an accent island/extension of inland north surrounded by the midland accent.

but indy is also definitely "midland", along with cincy.


source: https://www.wbez.org/shows/curious-c...1-08adae048d28

Originally Posted by eschaton

I have met people in rural Ohio counties north of Columbus with a bit of a drawl/twang however.

hell, i have a bunch of family in rural SW michigan with noticeable "country twang".

and you'll hear country twang all over rural indiana.

my dad's good friend from high school moved to Brook, Indiana (a tiny country town out in the corn fields ~70 miles south of chicago), and raised his family there. his kids totally have "country twang".

our families got together frequently and i distinctly remember us kids making fun of each other's "city" and "country" accents.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by uaarkson

If the Twin Cities feel more like PNW it's because of the relative lack of urban decay compared with the lower Midwest/Great Lakes.

With that said, culturally it doesn't get more midwest than Minnesota. Ope.

I've actually spent far more time in Washington State than Minnesota abut you get all these stereotypical northern midwestern queues in various places in Washington state, including the Scandinavian heritage, and you can sort of reverse engineer it down the old Northern Pacific. Additionally, the historical built environments of Minneapolis, Seattle, and to a lesser extent Portland sort of share commonalities beyond lack of decay.

[Handro]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

My view from the southern midwest...naw. Minneapolis has tinges of the pacific northwest (northern pacific?) and other things like this. If Chicago were smaller, it would probably be the closest thing to "quintessentially midwest" but the midwest is a vast place and there is no "pure" archetype. Just because Minneapolis is the furthest from the south doesnt move it towards purity, lol.

Now thats.... insane. Have you been to Minneapolis? Seriously, and not being snarky.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yeah, to me, Minneapolis feels like Anglo Canada and Pacific NW. Doesn't feel like Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago, etc.

Tall, blond, nominal Protestants, few AAs, progressive but practical, clean, organized, prosperous, a bit bland and (behaviorally) cold.

no, minneapolis was basically indianapolis or columbus prior to the influx of the post vietnam war se asian refugees and the later somali refugees. so wrong city comparisons, but ok on the historic traits, which all these cities share or shared. if anything minny is still closer to those cities today than it ever was the older big rust belter cities.

in other words and fwiw i get much more of a columbus with a better downtown vibe in mpls than a detroit, or portland or canadian cities vibe.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Handro

Now thats.... insane. Have you been to Minneapolis? Seriously, and not being snarky.

Uh, yeah. Do you know the railroad history of the northern tier of the United States?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

no, minneapolis was basically indianapolis or columbus prior to the influx of the post vietnam war se asian refugees and the later somali refugees. so wrong city comparisons, but ok on the historic traits, which all these cities share or shared. if anything minny is still closer to those cities today than it ever was the older big rust belter cities.

in other words and fwiw i get much more of a columbus with a better downtown vibe in mpls than a detroit, or portland or canadian cities vibe.

yeah, i totally agree with that.

the early 20th century wood frame vernacular of seattle or portland does share some familiarity with minneapolis, but you can also see that shit in spades in indy, or even milwaukee.

overall, minneapolis fits FAR more squarely in the midwestern realm than the PNW realm in my mind.

and it's not even close.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

yeah, i totally agree with that.

the early 20th century wood frame vernacular of seattle or portland does share some familiarity with minneapolis, but you can also see that shit in spades in indy, or even milwaukee.

overall, minneapolis fits FAR more squarely in the midwestern realm than the PNW realm in my mind.

and it's not even close.

yeah thats why I said "tinge" but i guess that was too much for some, lol. i'd perhaps argue the old pacific northwest was more like the northern midwest at one point than it is today, including the scandi heritage like i already said.

...and if you travel around washington state outside of seattle (i guess not to many on here?) you see all of these sort of far-northern midwestern-y (specifically minnesota) flashes. lots of viking imagery, etc.

i vacation in washington state almost every summer and have seen a lot of these things and it reminds me A LOT of minnesota.

[BG918]

Originally Posted by eschaton

There are basically two different cultures in the Midwest - the Upper Midwest and the Lower Midwest.

The Upper Midwest was mainly founded by Yankees who moved westward into the Great Lakes littoral via the Erie Canal. The Yankee roots can be heard in the accents and seen in the vernacular architecture (lots of wood frame, few rowhouses). It has absolutely zero southern influence, except in limited areas where the "hillbilly highway" brought white southerners northward.

The Lower Midwest was settled via the Ohio River by Pennsylvanians and Virginians. The Pennsylvania roots can be seen in the more rowhouse-like vernacular architecture in Cinci and STL. The southern roots are very clear in places if you listen to the accent. Over the 20th century though St. Louis has become increasingly influenced by Chicago's accent, meaning Cincinnati is the sole remaining large city in the Lower Midwest with a distinct "midland" accent.

I think that the substantive German immigration to Cincinnati makes it feel a lot less southern than most of southern Ohio though. I have met people in rural Ohio counties north of Columbus with a bit of a drawl/twang however.

I think there is also a distinction between the heavy Scandinavian/Lutheran influence in the Dakotas and Minnesota vs. the heavy German/Catholic influence in states like Wisconsin and Ohio. This shows up well on the Christian denomination map.

I also like this map that was posted above. As someone from Tulsa I also felt like we had more in common with Kansas City, Omaha and even the river cities like St Louis and Louisville than Oklahoma City or cities in Texas or in the South.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by BG918

I think there is also a distinction between the heavy Scandinavian/Lutheran influence in the Dakotas and Minnesota vs. the heavy German/Catholic influence in states like Wisconsin and Ohio. This shows up well on the Christian denomination map.

I also like this map that was posted above. As someone from Tulsa I also felt like we had more in common with Kansas City, Omaha and even the river cities like St Louis and Louisville than Oklahoma City or cities in Texas or in the South.

Tulsa reminded me a lot of Kansas City, whereas Oklahoma City is one of the few places I've been where I've seen the cowboy hat/business suit combo downtown.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by BG918

I think there is also a distinction between the heavy Scandinavian/Lutheran influence in the Dakotas and Minnesota vs. the heavy German/Catholic influence in states like Wisconsin and Ohio. This shows up well on the Christian denomination map.

but the counties that make up the twin cities metro area are more catholic than they are luthern, or any other denomination.

yes, once you get out into the corn and wheat fields going west or south from minneapolis, it definitely gets more lutheran, but the twin cities themselves aren't radically out of religious alignment with the rest of the midwest's major urban areas.

[Handro]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

Uh, yeah. Do you know the railroad history of the northern tier of the United States?

Only superficially. How does the history of the northern railway make Minneapolis more like Seattle than Milwaukee?

EDIT: reading through posts I see I totally misread your POV.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by BG918

I think there is also a distinction between the heavy Scandinavian/Lutheran influence in the Dakotas and Minnesota vs. the heavy German/Catholic influence in states like Wisconsin and Ohio. This shows up well on the Christian denomination map.

I also like this map that was posted above. As someone from Tulsa I also felt like we had more in common with Kansas City, Omaha and even the river cities like St Louis and Louisville than Oklahoma City or cities in Texas or in the South.

just an aside, but while ohio is very catholic overall, the german-catholic thing is only in se ohio. and it is more than just urban cinci or dayton, there is also a rather unusual and noteworthy rural german catholic area down there as well:

https://seemore.org/land-of-the-cross-tipped-churches/

[goat314]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yeah, to me, Minneapolis feels like Anglo Canada and Pacific NW. Doesn't feel like Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago, etc.

Tall, blond, nominal Protestants, few AAs, progressive but practical, clean, organized, prosperous, a bit bland and (behaviorally) cold.

That's also how I've always seen the Twin Cities. I remember visiting as a kid and being shocked at how clean and orderly the city was in comparison to most Midwestern cities. It had very little blight, visible poverty, or industrial scars in comparison to the Rust Belt regions. I think this map shows how much on the fringe of the core Midwest the Twin Cities are. For the record, I like the Twin Cities and think they do way more with what they got than other places in the region. It has a really progressive vibe that is somewhat of an outlier in the region. Even Chicago feels a bit more conservative in my opinion, which is probably why people liken it to the Pacific Northwest at times. Even it's skyline favors something like Portland or Seattle more so than any other Midwestern city.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Has anyone here lived/worked in both Cincinnati and the true South? Like Mobile, AL? Aside form myself, probably not. They are worlds away.

Kentucky is not and never was the South. Tennessee in 2020 is barely the South. Knoxville was never the South. Nashville has turned into a cartoon.

But hey, Kentucky never joined the Confederacy, but let's post a thread in 2020 about Cincinnati being "southern". Swish, you win. You got the attention you wanted.

I rode my bicycle in Kentucky this past Saturday. Did I see any confederate flags? No, but I saw two Canadian flags.

On road trips to Disney World as a kid, I recall Kentucky feeling like it was not the north. I haven't been through there as an adult, so maybe I was confusing it with Appalachia. But then again, West Virginia didn't seem so much southern as it did redneck-y.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

don't forget about the millions of southern blacks who came to milwaukee, chicago, detroit, and cleveland during the great migrations. they certainly brought a lot of southern influence with them too.

They also took it to the northeast, too. And to a lesser extent L.A. and the Bay Area. So that wouldn't be a huge differentiating factor for most big cities.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

They also took it to the northeast, too. And to a lesser extent L.A. and the Bay Area. So that wouldn't be a huge differentiating factor for most big cities.

i'm not saying it was a big differentiating factor, just correcting eschaton, who said:

Originally Posted by eschaton

The Upper Midwest..... has absolutely zero southern influence, except in limited areas where the "hillbilly highway" brought white southerners northward.

white southerners traveling the hillbilly highway were not the only southern influence that upper midwest cities had.

that was the full extent of my point.

[Shwayze1994]

Just from a Missourians view, I visited the Twin Cities last summer. I honestly couldn’t stop calling it the “Portland of the Midwest.” There’s definitely the beer/bar culture, the city feels very clean and green, also BIKES are everywhere, and minus that one heatwave last summer, it has mild summer temperatures like the PNW, the music scene is incredible, one night I’m in a mosh pit with a hardcore punk band, the next night I watching funk and indie rock at 9th ave, and obviously the progressiveness. My view might be limited, but the cities gave me a Portland vibe.