Surrey Langley Skytrain - Expo Line Extension | Proposed

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Bingo!! On the news article!! The Mayor's council is not the same council before Oct 20th. It is a whole new group of people. Just because the former Surrey council rammed LRT technology down the throats of people in Surrey in a backroom without even asking if that is what they wanted does not mean we have to accept it. The voters soundly rejected LRT so it is back to the drawing board. Doug and his team won't back down on the "No LRT" position. Would be hard to build LRT with no cooperation from Surrey Council. The other new mayors will be paying attention to how Horgan treats Surrey. It is a new day and a new government in Surrey. Interesting days ahead...

It turns out that one of the reasons the Mayors Council came up with a 10 Year Vision is so that things wouldn't change between elections and planners could actually plan for the future without having to worry about which government is in place in two years time.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

not true. TransLink, like all Crown Corporations, don't require municipal permits/approvals to do what they want. that said, generally they want to play nice with the electorate.

TransLink is not a Crown corporation. BC Transit is, TransLink is not.

[Waders]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

not true. TransLink, like all Crown Corporations, don't require municipal permits/approvals to do what they want. that said, generally they want to play nice with the electorate.

Really? Even so, if Surrey doesn't participate in the project willingly, it is not going to achieve good result.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

It turns out that one of the reasons the Mayors Council came up with a 10 Year Vision is so that things wouldn't change between elections and planners could actually plan for the future without having to worry about which government is in place in two years time.

Plans change sometimes. The people of Surrey overwhelmingly said No LRT. Translink would be stupid to try and push ahead anyway with it. The last Surrey council were bullies and that is one reason why they got turfed.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Henbo

If not, then process-wise, they are likely viewing these as two distinct projects. If the first project is cancelled, the money cannot simply be shifted to another project (whose timeline is a few years behind the first project). Instead, the money will be reallocated to another shovel-ready transit project, maybe in Toronto or Ottawa (helping get votes there )

The Surrey LRT plan isn't shovel ready. Changing it from LRT to some variety of BRT at this early stage isn't physically difficult. We'll have to see if it will be politically difficult.

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Plans change sometimes. The people of Surrey overwhelmingly said No LRT. Translink would be stupid to try and push ahead anyway with it. The last Surrey council were bullies and that is one reason why they got turfed.

TransLink didn't want LRT either - it was Surrey pushing the Mayors Council for it.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Henbo

If not, then process-wise, they are likely viewing these as two distinct projects. If the first project is cancelled, the money cannot simply be shifted to another project (whose timeline is a few years behind the first project). Instead, the money will be reallocated to another shovel-ready transit project, maybe in Toronto or Ottawa (helping get votes there )

Which one would that be? All of Canada's proposed rapid transit lines are either already funded, still being planned, or set to cost much more than $1.7B. I don't see anywhere for the Newton-Guildford money to go except back to Surrey.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by NewfBC

So you're saying Canada Line was a foolish decision?

Ron.

The line wasn't, the technology choice was poor because of timing constraints to get it before the Olympics. Had there been no Olympics bid, we would likely have had the Evergreen line built as a bad LRT that serves only Coquitlam, the RAV line being built as a LRT-to-nowhere that serves only Richmond, and Surrey's LRT would probably been connected to that and built 4 years ago.

That's based on the idea that these crappy LRT's are being built as Vanity projects instead of to meet transit needs. We're having the Surrey fight because Richmond capitulated in order for RAV to be built on time, and it pushed the Evergreen line back as a result.

Realistically, I have enough faith in the provincial government to flip the bird to the mayors and have last-minute interventions to pick the right technology at the last minute. Nothing has been done in Surrey yet. Money has been spent, but there's still no bid. The saving grace if this LRT is canceled is that it won't be another P3P project.

Had the Richmond RAV line been started as a LRT, and then we won the Olympic bid, it would have still had to continue as a LRT, because of cancellation costs.

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Bingo!! On the news article!! The Mayor's council is not the same council before Oct 20th. It is a whole new group of people. Just because the former Surrey council rammed LRT technology down the throats of people in Surrey in a backroom without even asking if that is what they wanted does not mean we have to accept it. The voters soundly rejected LRT so it is back to the drawing board. Doug and his team won't back down on the "No LRT" position. Would be hard to build LRT with no cooperation from Surrey Council. The other new mayors will be paying attention to how Horgan treats Surrey. It is a new day and a new government in Surrey. Interesting days ahead...

Considering it was the previous Mayors and previous two Surrey Mayors who rammed the LRT down the throats of Metro Vancouver in the first place, despite everyone with two brain cells telling them not to. It was about payoffs.

For example the person responsible for the LRT planning in Surrey? Used to work for one of the engineering companies who bid on it. What about the developers? I'm sure everyone who speculated on the property along the proposed LRT line had a horse in the race from the increased property values, no matter what was built. Less property needs to be bought if it's Skytrain.

Let's just hope that Surrey doesn't start making wacky demands like Vancouver does and starts asking for it to be built as a tunneled subway. (I would not be opposed to that as long as it's still part of the Skytrain.)


Speaking of cancellation costs, Nathan Pachal (Langley City) has told news channels that the LRT money has already been spent or something, yet the business case shows this:



https://surreylightrail.ca/Documents...iness_case.pdf

Incidentally if anyone hasn't read it, they censored out numbers on costs, but left in numbers on negative net present value (see page 54)

Important to note (page 73):

Special Purpose Vehicle (SPV)
The DBVFOMR will carry additional costs

Partial Compensation for Unsuccessful Proponents
Under both procurement options, it is anticipated that partial compensation will be offered to unsuccessful proponents that have submitted compliant proposals during the competitive selection process, though these costs will be higher under DBVFOMR procurement due to the inclusion of operational scope in the proposal as well as the involvement of private financing, and the resulting additional proposal and contractual complexity.
It has been assumed in the analysis that $ million will be paid to each of two unsuccessful proponents providing bona fide proposals, for a total cost of $ million under both the DBV and DBVFOMR. This assumes that three bidders would be shortlisted and qualified for the Request for Proposal (RFP) stage
under each delivery model

Also the recommendation was DBVFOMR.

So if Surrey cancels the LRT, at worst only a small amount has been spent, and nobody has produced vehicles yet.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Sheba

The Surrey LRT plan isn't shovel ready. Changing it from LRT to some variety of BRT at this early stage isn't physically difficult. We'll have to see if it will be politically difficult.




TransLink didn't want LRT either - it was Surrey pushing the Mayors Council for it.

Phase 2 doesn't have to go all the way to Langley. It can stop at 168th street for now and Phase 3 can continue it to Langley. That would make the Phase 3 project cheaper than it would have been. We will see how this all plays out.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

TransLink is not a Crown corporation. BC Transit is, TransLink is not.

TransLink is a subsidiary of BC Transit which mean it is covered through that.

but as others have said, TransLink was against LRT and preferred BRT+RRT. Surrey wanted what they wanted. will be interesting to see what happens in the next few months.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Phase 2 doesn't have to go all the way to Langley. It can stop at 168th street for now and Phase 3 can continue it to Langley. That would make the Phase 3 project cheaper than it would have been. We will see how this all plays out.

Maybe that's how it'll work - 168th is halfway to Langley, so the $1.7B from Phase 2 could fund BRT and the first half of the SkyTrain, then Phase 3 could finish the second half.

[Henbo]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Which one would that be? All of Canada's proposed rapid transit lines are either already funded, still being planned, or set to cost much more than $1.7B. I don't see anywhere for the Newton-Guildford money to go except back to Surrey.

If true, then the money would probably come back to Surrey. But if the project was cancelled (and not just modified?), then they would have to submit a new application for a new project.

I am not 100% sure what agreement is in place, or federal fund is expected to finance the project. But most large funds have a certain $ amount allocated to them for a certain amount of years, as laid out in the federal budget. And through budgets (or elections) funds and their $ amount, can either be boosted, cut, or just eliminated. So if Surrey was to forgo funding for 2 years as they solidified a new rapid transit application, and the Conservatives were to come to power next year and scaled back something like the Public Transit Infrastructure Fund, then the money might not be available for Surrey.

And today, if this money was to come out of something like the Public Transit Infrastructure Fund, I don't know if that fund receives applications on a rolling basis or only within one period of time, where they decide which projects to fund, and which to not.

My experience in government tells me this is how it usually works for funding infrastructure, but I'm not specifically involved in any of this, so I could be completely off the mark.

[M00dy]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Speaking of cancellation costs, Nathan Pachal (Langley City) has told news channels that the LRT money has already been spent or something, yet the business case shows this:

Yeah that's bs from him. The main contracts aren't anywhere close to awarded. RFQ for the phase 1 SNG L line is still on BC-Bid. Addendum shows Nov 21st for submittal:

[xd_1771]

[QUOTE=M00dy;8353298]Yeah that's bs from him. The main contracts aren't anywhere close to awarded. RFQ for the phase 1 SNG L line is still on BC-Bid. Addendum shows Nov 21st for submittal:/QUOTE]


I also remember seeing that it was extended. The original deadline was Oct 31st before it became this November deadline. Seems like there wasn't much bidding interest?

[Trainguy]

[QUOTE=xd_1771;8353453]

Originally Posted by M00dy

Yeah that's bs from him. The main contracts aren't anywhere close to awarded. RFQ for the phase 1 SNG L line is still on BC-Bid. Addendum shows Nov 21st for submittal:/QUOTE]


I also remember seeing that it was extended. The original deadline was Oct 31st before it became this November deadline. Seems like there wasn't much bidding interest?

Surrey First tried to ram through this project just before the election and they paid for it at the ballet box. Surrey is a heavy NDP area at the moment so if Horgan tries to snowball Surrey with LRT, he will also pay for it at the ballet box. All those voters who voted for Doug and his team are expecting election promises to be fulfilled. No shovels have been turned and no money has changed hands yet. Watch what happens in November when the first council meeting happens.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by whatnext

BY which time the anti transit Tories could be back in Ottawa or we could be in a recession. It’s foolish to throw away this chance at the money.

How are the Tories anti-transit? You can criticize them for many things, but not this. Transit project funding actually increased under the Harper government. They also created at tax credit for buying a transit pass.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

If the buses run down dedicated lanes in the center median then it's possible to have crossovers on each side of a median station so the buses can board on the right side. There aren't so many buses running that this would cause a problem. It really depends on how many median stations there are vs. curb stations.

But median stations generally make for a poor transit experience because they require people to cross lanes of traffic to access them. It's better from a transit customer perspective to have curb stations located closer to the streetside amenities.

Yes, but the overall lanes crossed is still the same if you going and leaving from the same destination with centre boarding. Also, it's easier to minimize conflicts with vehicular traffic with a transit corridor in the centre.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

How are the Tories anti-transit? You can criticize them for many things, but not this. Transit project funding actually increased under the Harper government. They also created at tax credit for buying a transit pass.

Yup, unlike the States, it's nearly impossible to run on a completely anti-transit ticket. The worst that happens with a Conservative run fed is that we get a mandatory P3 or another stupid name - "Patriot Extension" or "Freedom Extension" or something like that.

[nname]

Originally Posted by M00dy

Yeah that's bs from him. The main contracts aren't anywhere close to awarded. RFQ for the phase 1 SNG L line is still on BC-Bid. Addendum shows Nov 21st for submittal:

Yeah, even if they issued RFP, they can still cancel it and not awarding anyone with the contract.

Even if it's already under construction, they can still cancel it and fill everything back. Doesn't looks good for sure, but Toronto had done it before

[scryer]

Originally Posted by nname

Even if it's already under construction, they can still cancel it and fill everything back. Doesn't looks good for sure, but Toronto had done it before

Speaking of which, how far along was the Evergreen extension planned as LRT before it got canned?

[dcman72]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

TransLink is a subsidiary of BC Transit which mean it is covered through that.

TransLink, formally the South Coast British Columbia Transportation Authority, is the statutory authority. They are separate from BC Transit.

Quote for translink website
Together with our partners, stakeholders and operating companies, we plan and manage the region's transportation system as a strategic whole.

Act that created Translink
south coast british columbia transportation authority act

Responsibilities of authority
(a) manage and operate the regional transportation system;
(b) develop and implement transportation demand management strategies and programs;
(d) generate and manage funds necessary for its purpose;
(e) acquire, construct and maintain any assets, facilities and other real or personal property required for the regional transportation system;
(f) review, and advise the Metro Vancouver Regional District, the municipalities and the government regarding the implications to the regional transportation system of,
(i) the regional growth strategy and any amendments to it,
(ii) official community plans applicable to any part of the transportation service region and any amendments to those plans, and
(iii) major development proposals and provincial highway infrastructure plans in the transportation service region;
(g) prepare and implement strategic, service, capital and operational plans for the regional transportation system;
(h) from time to time, negotiate agreements with the government for contribution by the government to the funding of the capital costs of maintaining, improving or expanding the regional transportation system;
(i) establish criteria by which a person's eligibility for custom transit services may be determined;
(j) make copies of its bylaws available to the public at its offices for a reasonable fee it determines.