Surrey Langley Skytrain - Expo Line Extension | Proposed

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by Shift

SkyTrain TOD with towers will never develop along Fraser Hwy between Surrey City Centre and Langley. That stretch will always be townhomes / single family, and 4-6 storey at best.

The character of that corridor is alot different than north of the Fraser. It is bisected by a significant chunk of ALR land for one - and will always be lower density. More suited to LRT than SkyTrain guideways.

Commuter service from Langley to Downtown should be West Coast Express style anyway - a skytrain extension would be far too long of a single line (and for such a tiny train such as skytrain). Unfortunately that will never happen.

LRT makes more sense to break it up - more appropriately scaled for the character of the South Fraser.

It doesn’t make sense to break it up. Langley AND Cloverdale residents will have less options to go across the river than they are now. Who cares if there’s ALR between 168th and 182nd? You make it sound like Langley only has houses with 5 acre yards, and that nobody will take the SkyTrain because it’s heavily sprawled out.

Burnaby was the same as Langley when Expo Line went into service in ’86. By that logic, the Interurban will be better built than SkyTrain because it’ll bring more development.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Shift

SkyTrain TOD with towers will never develop along Fraser Hwy between Surrey City Centre and Langley. That stretch will always be townhomes / single family, and 4-6 storey at best.

The character of that corridor is alot different than north of the Fraser. It is bisected by a significant chunk of ALR land for one - and will always be lower density. More suited to LRT than SkyTrain guideways.

Just because it go through some low density area that connect two higher-density nodes doesn't mean no one is going to ride through it. By this logic, then the Expo Line between Edmonds and New Westminster, or Millennium Line between Holdom and Lougheed should've been built as LRT. I don't see any tower there.

Originally Posted by Shift

Commuter service from Langley to Downtown should be West Coast Express style anyway - a skytrain extension would be far too long of a single line (and for such a tiny train such as skytrain). Unfortunately that will never happen.

It is long by North American standard, only because transit is pretty bad over here...

I posted a list of all "long" metro lines in the world about a year ago - if the Expo Line is extended to Langley Centre in 2017, it will be the 47th longest line in the world. At this rate, I don't even think it will be in the top 100 by the time it finishes....

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by Shift

SkyTrain TOD with towers will never develop along Fraser Hwy between Surrey City Centre and Langley. That stretch will always be townhomes / single family, and 4-6 storey at best.

The character of that corridor is alot different than north of the Fraser. It is bisected by a significant chunk of ALR land for one - and will always be lower density. More suited to LRT than SkyTrain guideways.

Commuter service from Langley to Downtown should be West Coast Express style anyway - a skytrain extension would be far too long of a single line (and for such a tiny train such as skytrain). Unfortunately that will never happen.

LRT makes more sense to break it up - more appropriately scaled for the character of the South Fraser.

You can still have dense development around Skytrain and not have towers.

Yes it will have to bisect the ALR, but so would LRT. If anything that's a case for no rapid transit, not one mode vs another.

The fact is even if only a small portion of people from Langley are going to Vancouver, there will be many who will also go to Burnaby or New West. It doesn't make sense to create an unnecessary transfer here.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Also worth noting is that "townhomes/single family, and 4-6 storey at best" are exactly what's popping up along the Canada Line right now. No reason why Surrey can't build SkyTrain and just zone for lowrises and midrises - they don't need an LRT for that.

[flipper316]

https://globalnews.ca/news/4106933/s...g-lrt-project/

A Surrey MLA is accusing Surrey council of not doing a good job “selling” the proposed Light Rail Transit (LRT) system to the community.

Surrey-Guildford MLA Garry Begg says he’s heard from his constituents who have shared some of their concerns.

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“I think if the message isn’t resounding, as it appears it is not,” Begg said. “It would be incumbent upon those people who have picked this system to do their best to ensure all of the facts and issues are out there so people can make a more informed decision.”

He said the city should make sure the public is also aware of the advantages LRT could bring to the area.

“Policy should be reflective of citizens’ concerns and when citizens indicate they have some concerns, the city should be out there providing the information that is required,” Begg said.
The LRT is expected to span 27 kilometres and be constructed in two phases. Phase one is a Surrey-Newton-Guildford LRT that will be linked to the current Expo Line SkyTrain stations. The second phase is expected to connect the King George Station to 56 Avenue and 203 Street in Langley.

In early 2016, the City of Surrey altered the cost of the project from $2.14 billion to $2.6 billion.

READ MORE: Broadway subway, Surrey LRT will be pricier than planned. But how much?

The federal government has committed up to 40 per cent funding for the project, while the province has indicated it will match that same amount of support.

© 2018 Global News, a division of Corus Entertainment Inc.

[logicbomb]

Where the hell is Skytrain for Surrey and Daryl? Christ almighty...I have done my part and visited my MLA. Get off your butts and walk into your MLA office asap.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by flipper316

https://globalnews.ca/news/4106933/s...g-lrt-project/

A Surrey MLA is accusing Surrey council of not doing a good job “selling” the proposed Light Rail Transit (LRT) system to the community.

Surrey-Guildford MLA Garry Begg says he’s heard from his constituents who have shared some of their concerns.

RELATED
At least one critic concerned with regional funding for TransLink expansion
‘Incredibly foolish’: Surrey mayor slams potential slowdown on light rail, subway
Metro Vancouver mayors want carbon tax money to help pay for LRT, Broadway subway and more
“I think if the message isn’t resounding, as it appears it is not,” Begg said. “It would be incumbent upon those people who have picked this system to do their best to ensure all of the facts and issues are out there so people can make a more informed decision.”

He said the city should make sure the public is also aware of the advantages LRT could bring to the area.

“Policy should be reflective of citizens’ concerns and when citizens indicate they have some concerns, the city should be out there providing the information that is required,” Begg said.
The LRT is expected to span 27 kilometres and be constructed in two phases. Phase one is a Surrey-Newton-Guildford LRT that will be linked to the current Expo Line SkyTrain stations. The second phase is expected to connect the King George Station to 56 Avenue and 203 Street in Langley.

In early 2016, the City of Surrey altered the cost of the project from $2.14 billion to $2.6 billion.

READ MORE: Broadway subway, Surrey LRT will be pricier than planned. But how much?

The federal government has committed up to 40 per cent funding for the project, while the province has indicated it will match that same amount of support.

© 2018 Global News, a division of Corus Entertainment Inc.

Exactly what I mentioned above.

Yet another reference to the entire 27KM as LRT, even thigh last I officially heard the technology for the link to Langley hasn't been decided.

This is starting to become a farce.

Someone needs to come out and do a clear statement on this.

Or is technology choices just being rubber stamped on a whim now to bend to the will of the cities?

And once again, I am not against the idea of the L-Line being LRT, I just feel that it is a big expenditure at this time and the alignment of this LRT is sub-par, but I am 100% against the Langley line being anything but the Expo Line extended.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Where the hell is Skytrain for Surrey and Daryl? Christ almighty...I have done my part and visited my MLA. Get off your butts and walk into your MLA office asap.

Too bad that my MLA is Rich Coleman; he won't care about the current transit issues happening here.

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Exactly what I mentioned above.

Yet another reference to the entire 27KM as LRT, even thigh last I officially heard the technology for the link to Langley hasn't been decided.

This is starting to become a farce.

Someone needs to come out and do a clear statement on this.

Or is technology choices just being rubber stamped on a whim now to bend to the will of the cities?

And once again, I am not against the idea of the L-Line being LRT, I just feel that it is a big expenditure at this time and the alignment of this LRT is sub-par, but I am 100% against the Langley line being anything but the Expo Line extended.

Where did you heard of this officially?

Municipal elections is almost six months from now. Surrey is trying really hard to put LRT on Phase Two on stone, and is now trying to pressure everyone to do it.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Finally to call out @firebrand go take a look at your facts, you've stated a bunch of things that are completely false (Langley Mayor wants Skytrain for one)...

Which Langley mayor? There are two, don't forget.

Nathan Pachal, a Langley City councillor, has tweeted things saying the line out to Langley is going to be LRT.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Finally to call out @firebrand go take a look at your facts, you've stated a bunch of things that are completely false (Langley Mayor wants Skytrain for one)...

That’s Ted Schaffer. The one that I was referring to is Jack Froese, the Township mayor.

Nathan Pachal is one of the City Councillors who is an LRT proponent.

[bardak]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Fourth, the line length IS a concern, most Metros use larger and longer trains than Skytrain. Skytrain is on the lower capacity end of Metros in terms of vehicle size, and maintaining the tight headway people suggest is not going to be easy on such a long line especially when trains become more and more crowded and dwells increase.

So we should be afraid of success? We should build the worse option so that it is not as successful. If we extend the expo line to langley and it pushes it's capacity that will just help encourage more investment in our transit system. I would rather have an overcrowded skytrain line that I have to push my way onto like the Canada line than a cute LRT line that does fine. A line that is wildly successful will drive more service on connecting bus service like the canada line did for buses like the 351, 410, and 49. It stretches out the benefits to areas that are far past the walkshed of the stations.

Personally I want to increase the quality of transit service throughout the entire lower mainland. The LRT will only benefit the more immediate areas around the stations. Someone in south Surrey will still be better off staying on the 321 instead of transfering at newton. At least with the BRT option they would have been a strong possablity of extending the b-line. Will people save any time on the 337 or 503. Will there be enough benefit to make large changes to the bus systems that the canada line and evergreen extension did?

My personal ranking of benefits from the 10 year plan

1. Broadway subway
2. Increased bus funding
3. Surrey LRT
4. Bridgeport-Metrotown B-line (What is point of the B-line)

[bardak]

Originally Posted by flipper316

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He said the city should make sure the public is also aware of the advantages LRT could bring to the area.

“Policy should be reflective of citizens’ concerns and when citizens indicate they have some concerns, the city should be out there providing the information that is required,” Begg said.

That is a rather liberal summarization of what he said. It sounds like the mla is saying that the city should be discussing the LRT by providing the facts (And I think that there is an implication that the facts are may not support the city however I may be reading into that). They always try to argue against the horrible business case by saying it is an older study and that they have had newer ones that show a good business case but have never actually provide said study.

[flipper316]

Originally Posted by bardak

So we should be afraid of success? We should build the worse option so that it is not as successful. If we extend the expo line to langley and it pushes it's capacity that will just help encourage more investment in our transit system. I would rather have an overcrowded skytrain line that I have to push my way onto like the Canada line than a cute LRT line that does fine. A line that is wildly successful will drive more service on connecting bus service like the canada line did for buses like the 351, 410, and 49. It stretches out the benefits to areas that are far past the walkshed of the stations.

Personally I want to increase the quality of transit service throughout the entire lower mainland. The LRT will only benefit the more immediate areas around the stations. Someone in south Surrey will still be better off staying on the 321 instead of transfering at newton. At least with the BRT option they would have been a strong possablity of extending the b-line. Will people save any time on the 337 or 503. Will there be enough benefit to make large changes to the bus systems that the canada line and evergreen extension did?

My personal ranking of benefits from the 10 year plan

1. Broadway subway
2. Increased bus funding
3. Surrey LRT
4. Bridgeport-Metrotown B-line (What is point of the B-line)

I guarantee you they'll end the 337 at guildford and the 503 at Langley once LRT is done. You'll be forced to transfer.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by flipper316

I guarantee you they'll end the 337 at guildford and the 503 at Langley once LRT is done. You'll be forced to transfer.

So basically a lot slower for the 337 and 503 riders. The 503 will still truncate to Langley Centre anyway if SkyTrain is extended, but at least it’ll be faster than the bus itself. 337... not so lucky.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

First of all its not some small area of low density like what you have referred to, it is much more significant.

Lower density. Even if the corridor won't see towers, mid-rise apartments would give density comparable to most section along Canada Line and even part of Expo Line.

Oh, and check out Metrotown area in the 1980s.

As for the ALR - if it is sure that the area won't develop ever, then run the thing at-grade and elevate the two or three crossings. See Evergreen extension in Port Moody for example.

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Second, by the numbers alone that should make the case that most trips aren't downtown like some seem to suggest.

Most trips aren't downtown, but most station aren't downtown either.

Third, point 2 doesn't matter much since the point of Rapid Transit is changing these patterns.

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Fourth, the line length IS a concern, most Metros use larger and longer trains than Skytrain. Skytrain is on the lower capacity end of Metros in terms of vehicle size, and maintaining the tight headway people suggest is not going to be easy on such a long line especially when trains become more and more crowded and dwells increase.

How much more crowded can the train gets? When the train length increase, there will be more doors. When there is tighter headway, the train will get less crowded.

Oh, are you saying that the Expo Line will ever get more crowded than London Underground? Seoul Metro? Shanghai Metro? Beijing Metro??

Can't find the list right now, but I know on there are lines with headway as low as 2min; medium capacity systems; system with local-express trains, etc. And there's even one Bombardier ALRT system on there.

Oh speaking of which, didn't we just ran a long line for almost 15 years between 2002 and 2016? If it had been done before on the SAME system, what's preventing them from doing it again? It's pretty much the same as if Expo is extended to Langley...

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

That’s Ted Schaffer. The one that I was referring to is Jack Froese, the Township mayor.

Nathan Pachal is one of the City Councillors who is an LRT proponent.

I know Nathan personally and he's not a proponent of LRT or Skytrain. He just wants rapid transit.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

Too bad that my MLA is Rich Coleman; he won't care about the current transit issues happening here.



Where did you heard of this officially?

Municipal elections is almost six months from now. Surrey is trying really hard to put LRT on Phase Two on stone, and is now trying to pressure everyone to do it.

That’s the point I was making, I have not heard any official announcement, yet out of no where all these politicians are referring to it as LRT.

Something feels fishy and we need an official clarification.

Also many of the points being brought up actually further support Skytrain for Langley. It is our region to region backbone system, and has long been described as a midway system between commuter and metro, which is entirely appropriate for a line that would traverse a rather long stretch of ALR connecting a major node such as Langley.

The sheer distance alone demands speed.

The L-Line is appropriate for LRT in that it is a more local within community line (this point is beside the cost and specific design), this is why Arbutus also makes sense as LRT, but with the Expo Line pointed directly towards Langley, the distance, the major road corridor it would follow, and the regional aspect all point directly to Skytrain for the Langley Line.