Will ever Winnipeg be like this?

[spiritedenergy]

Since it seems that the city is interested in knowing what people wants about public transit, whay don't we prepare one of those online petitions to be sent to city hall, about implementing a streetcar system? Streetcars are also very good in Toronto, I hardly took the bus there.

[1ajs]

i would sign.

start downtown then work our ways up portage and also main street and then pemida all the way to the floodway gates

anyhow heres some shots from downtown Minneapolis

[Lee_Haber8]

Originally Posted by Only The Lonely..

Looking at the economics of the Portland Street Car network, I have come to believe that a similiar system would be very doable for a city our size.

• Route length: 3.0 miles (March 2005)
• Stations: 44 (March 2005, total, both directions)
• Weekday ridership: 5,600 (2003)
• Vehicles: 7
• Total cost (original, 2001): $54.6 million for 2.4 route-miles – ca. $23 million/route-mile
• Total cost (extension, 2005): $15.8 million for 0.6 route-miles – ca. $26 million/route-mile




Furthermore, ridership has increased by 1000+ riders for each year since 2001.

Only the Lonely, you forgot to mention that the streetcar generated 2 billion dollars in investment in the surrounding communities.

2 Billion!
Let's do a cost benefit analysis. That would mean for every dollar spent on the streetcar it produced it generated 29 dollars in development! Talk about bang for your buck!

I would say the first street car line should go from the U of W to the forks via Portage Avenue. It would make the area a lot more pleasant and would serve major destinations.

As for light rail not serving any destinations, here's an updated route map I made. One of the big reasons why I looked at BRT initially (and still think it is a good intermediate step) is that it can easily reach the University directly. For light-rail to do the same it would involve making Dafoe Rd. into a transit mall and a short underground section at Bison Drive.
Light Rail Map

[rgalston]

Street railway would be the only way to go in Winnipeg as far as surface light rail is concerned: take a look at maps from the 2001 census that show existing transit ridership (which incidentally follows the old street car routes--over fifty years later) and population densities. Mass transit must always serve where the people are, and where they are going; not low-density suburbs (predispositioned to automobile use anyway), or imaginary new-urbanist football stadia.

[good_dude]

Originally Posted by Only The Lonely..

I agree..

For those who doubt a light rail system would increase ridership consider this:

send that to all our city councillors! they need a success story to kick their anti-rapid-transit butts

[Lee_Haber8]

Originally Posted by rgalston

Street railway would be the only way to go in Winnipeg as far as surface light rail is concerned: take a look at maps from the 2001 census that show existing transit ridership (which incidentally follows the old street car routes--over fifty years later) and population densities. Mass transit must always serve where the people are, and where they are going; not low-density suburbs (predispositioned to automobile use anyway), or imaginary new-urbanist football stadia.

When it comes to where Rapid should go the first thing you want to do is serve major destinations that generate a lot trips. That would be employment centres, attractions and major shopping centres. When serving people a line should either serve existing development or spur development to be built around it. Suburbs aren't going away, so the only way to make them better is to make them more urban. Rapid transit is what is needed to jumpstart this.

The problem I have with the subway plan is that it doesn't serve several major destinations. I see a dark spot near the university that doesn't have a line coming close to it. An LRT which serves both the inner city and suburbs can serve far flung destinations (like the U of M) and make the suburbs more livable. The city is not a museum, those low-density suburbs don't have to be low-density suburbs in perpetuity.

[drew]

Do streetcars fall under the LRT umbrella?

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by drew

Do streetcars fall under the LRT umbrella?

LST maybe.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by Andy6

LST maybe.

LST ???

[rgalston]

Originally Posted by Lee_Haber8

When it comes to where Rapid should go the first thing you want to do is serve major destinations that generate a lot trips. That would be employment centres, attractions and major shopping centres. When serving people a line should either serve existing development or spur development to be built around it. Suburbs aren't going away, so the only way to make them better is to make them more urban. Rapid transit is what is needed to jumpstart this.

The problem I have with the subway plan is that it doesn't serve several major destinations. I see a dark spot near the university that doesn't have a line coming close to it. An LRT which serves both the inner city and suburbs can serve far flung destinations (like the U of M) and make the suburbs more livable. The city is not a museum, those low-density suburbs don't have to be low-density suburbs in perpetuity.

I don't disagree with that, but in Winnipeg's case, what do you think is more important? Giving the troubled downtown and inner city a major tool in becoming attractive to residents, businesses and investors; or making new suburbs incorporate T.O.D. into their design? A quick stroll down Main Street or through Centennial or South Portage--places oozing with unmet potential--the answer is pretty obvious.

[Only The Lonely..]

Originally Posted by good_dude

send that to all our city councillors! they need a success story to kick their anti-rapid-transit butts

This would be an interesting topic for WUI to explore (Street Cars vs BRT cost/benefit analysis).


When school is finished in about a week i'll dedicate some more time into researching this.

[Only The Lonely..]

Originally Posted by rgalston

I don't disagree with that, but in Winnipeg's case, what do you think is more important? Giving the troubled downtown and inner city a major tool in becoming attractive to residents, businesses and investors; or making new suburbs incorporate T.O.D. into their design? A quick stroll down Main Street or through Centennial or South Portage--places oozing with unmet potential--the answer is pretty obvious.

I tend to agree with Mr.Galston's point of view on this..

Given the choice between BRT to major destinations or a street car system it is my belief that the street car would deliver the most bang for our transportation buck.

By building a street car system we address three important issues at once:

(1.) Inner city residents are the biggest users of transit; it would make sense to accommodate them. After all, it is these people who would be most likely to initially use any type of new system.

(2.) The economic opportunities associated with this type of tram system are undeniable. I believe Lee suggested that Portland's system generated $29 in development for every transit dollar spent. The old street car neighbourhoods (St.Boniface, Downtown, North End, Fort Rouge, and West End) could definitely benefit from the added development.

(3.) Furthermore, with a new street car system in place we could free up existing buses and turn them into dedicated express routes between regional commercial centres. I've always thought that turning the 77 Crosstown North into a non-stop express bus between Polo Park, Garden City, and Kildonan Place would do a lot to promote transit ridership in these suburban areas.

[Lee_Haber8]

Originally Posted by rgalston

I don't disagree with that, but in Winnipeg's case, what do you think is more important? Giving the troubled downtown and inner city a major tool in becoming attractive to residents, businesses and investors; or making new suburbs incorporate T.O.D. into their design? A quick stroll down Main Street or through Centennial or South Portage--places oozing with unmet potential--the answer is pretty obvious.

I agree that inner city has the highest priority in being redeveloped. A streetcar system would be greatly stimulate a revival which would make it building a system a top priority. However, we should also note that Portland has a light-rail system that complements its streetcar network and the two would not be as good without the other. There's also the political reality that it may be difficult getting 12 suburban councilors and a suburban mayor to support an urban-only project. Hopefully I'm wrong on this. That said, I think it would make sense if Winnipeg pursued a streetcar and B-Line bus service and then looked to LRT

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Lee_Haber8

I agree that inner city has the highest priority in being redeveloped. A streetcar system would be greatly stimulate a revival which would make it building a system a top priority. However, we should also note that Portland has a light-rail system that complements its streetcar network and the two would not be as good without the other. There's also the political reality that it may be difficult getting 12 suburban councilors and a suburban mayor to support an urban-only project. Hopefully I'm wrong on this. That said, I think it would make sense if Winnipeg pursued a streetcar and B-Line bus service and then looked to LRT

I don't really understand this. A streetcar does absolutely nothing that a bus doesn't do, except that it does it more slowly and more expensively (at least if you're looking at the marginal cost of adding buses to an existing fleet vs. adding a completely new type of equipment to the Transit fleet). No doubt there would be a "shiny newness" factor to streetcars that can't be totally discounted, but beyond image and nostalgia is there anything about them that would change people's existing habits? With one streetcar line, anytime there's any kind of roadwork or obstruction (e.g. from an accident) the whole system has to shut down. I would personally prefer to see the city work on improving the bus system in preference to introducing new stuff.

[Only The Lonely..]

Originally Posted by Lee_Haber8

I agree that inner city has the highest priority in being redeveloped. A streetcar system would be greatly stimulate a revival which would make it building a system a top priority. However, we should also note that Portland has a light-rail system that complements its streetcar network and the two would not be as good without the other. There's also the political reality that it may be difficult getting 12 suburban councilors and a suburban mayor to support an urban-only project. Hopefully I'm wrong on this. That said, I think it would make sense if Winnipeg pursued a streetcar and B-Line bus service and then looked to LRT

Yes, this thought has occurred to me also. With a heavy voter base in the suburbs and so many pro sprawl councilors in power it might be difficult to convince council in the merit of such a system.

However, I think this idea would have a couple of pockets of support.

(1.) The businesses that make up Winnipeg's ethnic neighbourhoods would probably be delighted to have such a system in place. In particular, The French Quarter, Little Italy, and the proposed 'Little Portugal' along Sargent Ave. Considerable money is already being spent to spice up St.Boniface so that it can attract more business and shoppers, why not add a street car? A street car network would definitely highlight the uniqueness of these diverse little enclaves.

(2.) Again back to ridership, the majority of transit users already live in these neighbourhoods to start with.

(3.) Lately the NDP has been caught up in an environmental craze to make greater use of wind power. I would think they would be supportive of a transit system that took advantage of our abundant supply of renewable energy. Bonus points for using wind power to power the street car system.

(4) Furthermore, there’s support amongst the opposition (Hugh McFadyen) for developments such as this.

(5.) I also believe developers and the real estate community at large would be supportive of such an idea. The success of Waterfront drive has demonstrated that there is clearly market demand for chic urban housing. A street car would certainly facilitate this kind of development.

These are just some ideas to throw around..

[Only The Lonely..]

Originally Posted by Andy6

I don't really understand this. A streetcar does absolutely nothing that a bus doesn't do, except that it does it more slowly and more expensively (at least if you're looking at the marginal cost of adding buses to an existing fleet vs. adding a completely new type of equipment to the Transit fleet). No doubt there would be a "shiny newness" factor to streetcars that can't be totally discounted, but beyond image and nostalgia is there anything about them that would change people's existing habits? With one streetcar line, anytime there's any kind of roadwork or obstruction (e.g. from an accident) the whole system has to shut down. I would personally prefer to see the city work on improving the bus system in preference to introducing new stuff.

Again, there's the urban renewal component to the system. Regardless of whether a new street car is actually faster than a bus, buses just don't generate the same amount of development activity that a rail system does.

The $29 of development for ever $1 invested in rail in Portland's case can't be discounted. I just can't see a similiar return on investment if we added more buses to these routes.

The city and province are already spending money on urban renewal, why not consolidate the budgets for BRT and inner city redevelopment and just use the money to build the rail system. Let the private sector take care of the rest.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Only The Lonely..

Again, there's the urban renewal component to the system. Regardless of whether a new street car is actually faster than a bus, buses just don't generate the same amount of development activity that a rail system does.

The $29 of development for ever $1 invested in rail in Portland's case can't be discounted. I just can't see a similiar return on investment if we added more buses to these routes.

The city and province are already spending money on urban renewal, why not consolidate the budgets for BRT and inner city redevelopment and just use the money to build the rail system. Let the private sector take care of the rest.

Why would streetcars generate any development activity in Winnipeg at all? What would be the process by which that would happen? What's an example of a development that might take place in the presence of a streetcar that would otherwise not occur? It's easy in a growing, upper middle class U.S. city for streetcar lovers to claim that growth that was going to happen anyway (somewhere) was in fact due to the streetcars. I don't see how having a streetcar would produce any growth in the very different situation of a city like Winnipeg.

[Only The Lonely..]

I think we need to put ourselves in the position of an entrepreneur looking to start a small retail shop, or restaurant. All things equal, which street would you rather lease retail space on?

This one:


Or this one:

[Andy6]

In Toronto, there is no one that hates streetcars more than small retailers, because the new lines built down the centres of streets try to speed up service by removing turn lanes and curb cuts, cutting businesses off from many of their potential customers. They also require the removal of on-street parking in many cases because the streetcar chews up two lanes of traffic down the centre of the street. Opposition to the Spadina and St. Clair streetcar lines came overwhelmingly from businesses on the affected streets.

[riyehn]

Originally Posted by Andy6

In Toronto, there is no one that hates streetcars more than small retailers, because the new lines built down the centres of streets try to speed up service by removing turn lanes and curb cuts, cutting businesses off from many of their potential customers. They also require the removal of on-street parking in many cases because the streetcar chews up two lanes of traffic down the centre of the street. Opposition to the Spadina and St. Clair streetcar lines came overwhelmingly from businesses on the affected streets.

Yes, but I doubt a Winnipeg streetcar line would be a quasi-LRT like the Spadina or St. Clair lines. More likely it would be a cheaper (it is Winnipeg, after all) shared-ROW system similar to the Portland or conventional Toronto streetcar systems.

Plus, downtown Winnipeg doesn't yet have the concentration of vibrant commercial strips that Toronto does. As I understand, both St. Clair and Spadina were popular shopping streets (for people from outside the neighbourhood) when the City decided to build the ROW along each street. In Winnipeg, there isn't yet that kind of patronage of downtown business. It's not like anyone could complain that their floods of customers would suddenly dry up. I think businesses in central Winnipeg would recognize and appreciate the improved accessibility a streetcar would bring to their area.