DENVER | Transportation Thread

[awholeparade]

And this is why I think cycling infrastructure is certainly nice, but should not dictate whether or not people are out cycling. We cannot wait for these to things, especially if they continue to be done at the same pace they have been doing so. This is something that can be done on a very grassroots level, which i really think needs to encouraged. You don't need specific bikes, gear, and properly labeled routes, just a bike, your body, and a destination (or not, because that's also fun!).

[dmintz]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

YRemember TREX? We widened the highway, added a train, and everybody cheered.

TREX was designed for suburban commuters so of course it included highway widening. We are talking about design to serve the residents of lodo and highlands who do not need fast moving arterials. most trips for them are under 2 miles and can be served by local roads (and yes, bike lanes). We should not design downtown around commuters from highlands ranch. Besides, given the billions spent over the past 50 years to build highways and encourage distant commuting, expanding mass transit should not be contingent upon spending billions more on highways.

Let me ask, what would you do with the traffic if you reduced 15th to one lane? One lane simply cannot move that many vehicles at peak hour, it's not technically possible.

If you add capacity more people will drive. If you take it away, people will seek out alternatives. Behavior adjusts and the world moves on- http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...traffic-lights

much of the time bicycling is NOT pleasant. When the weather is snowy, blustery, hot, or wet, biking because one has to, can be horrid.

I find biking to work extremely pleasant and liberating, even in the snow. I get exercise and fresh air. Much better than cursing at traffic. it is not for everyone and should not be forced on anyone, but it should be a safe option for those who choose to bike.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Here's a bicycle challenge: Federal. Would anybody seriously consider a bike lane here, and if so, how?

Normal on-street bike lanes would be inadequate on Federal. Cars are moving too fast for a little stripe on the side to make anyone feel safe. You'd need separation of some kind.

Assuming we're sticking to Federal and not going to a side street (which I don't mind, although Knox might be too far), I'd be more inclined to put a bike facility there off-street as part of a widened sidewalk, like the Broadway bikeway in Boulder. Take the space from either the massive setbacks that are along most of Federal anyway, or narrow the curb-to-curb a few feet. Those seven lanes down by Alameda are at least 12 footers, if not 13.


Broadway bikeway, Boulder.

Originally Posted by awholeparade

And this is why I think cycling infrastructure is certainly nice, but should not dictate whether or not people are out cycling.

There is a certain demographic of macho cyclist that doesn't care, and will mix with cars on any street it's legal to do so. But if you want cycling to go mainstream, average Jane* has to feel safe, which generally means there has to be a lot of cycling infrastructure.

* I say average Jane instead of average Joe because there's a lot of literature showing that women are much less willing to ride without infrastructure than men, and that if you don't provide good facilities you're essentially limiting your market to men only.

[The Dirt]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

But if you want cycling to go mainstream, average Jane* has to feel safe, which generally means there has to be a lot of cycling infrastructure.

* I say average Jane instead of average Joe because there's a lot of literature showing that women are much less willing to ride without infrastructure than men, and that if you don't provide good facilities you're essentially limiting your market to men only.

Very good point! My wife absolutely refuses to ride her bike again until we move out of Lower Highland. I typically avoid riding in mixed traffic and stick to sidewalks as much as I can, but otherwise I feel perfectly safe riding in the street anywhere west of I-25. I'm lucky enough that my commute is a full 10 paces from my nightstand, so I imagine that I wouldn't feel quite as safe during rush hour.

I have to say that Lower Highland is actually fairly well connected to downtown via bike friendly routes. Speer, 15th and 20the are adequate to get you between downtown and CPV, and then you've got the 16th street bridges that take you to Central. After that, there's really no obvious E/W route. It's the rest of Highland that's not very well connected to Lower Highland. There's really no suitable arterial between Speer and 38th. 32nd is one lane in each direction, which is adequate for cars, but there's really no ROW there for an additional bicycle lane. Perhaps, 33rd could use a dedicated bike lane, along with a stop sign reconfiguration and some traffic lights at key intersections.

[awholeparade]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

There is a certain demographic of macho cyclist that doesn't care, and will mix with cars on any street it's legal to do so. But if you want cycling to go mainstream, average Jane* has to feel safe, which generally means there has to be a lot of cycling infrastructure.

I get this, i'm just afraid of the results. I guess if the infrastructure is planned well, it will go everywhere, which won't be limiting.

Originally Posted by The Dirt

I typically avoid riding in mixed traffic and stick to sidewalks as much as I can, but otherwise I feel perfectly safe riding in the street anywhere west of I-25. I'm lucky enough that my commute is a full 10 paces from my nightstand, so I imagine that I wouldn't feel quite as safe during rush hour.

I'm only saying this because most people don't know this, so if you do, i'm not trying to be an ass. Not only is riding on the sidewalk illegal, but it's also far more dangerous than riding in the street. Seriously, stop doing it.

[bunt_q]

Nevermind...

I will just content myself with the fact that we have obviously convinced laypeople that induced traffic is real. Even if they grossly misunderstand its implications, I'll take it.

[The Dirt]

Originally Posted by awholeparade

I'm only saying this because most people don't know this, so if you do, i'm not trying to be an ass. Not only is riding on the sidewalk illegal, but it's also far more dangerous than riding in the street. Seriously, stop doing it.

No, I didn't know that. This has to be one of the top 10 dumbest laws. When I'm on the sidewalk, I go slow, follow pedestrian signals, and generally behave like a pedestrian. When I ride on the street, I am able to go much faster, mostly due to the street being smoother and containing less obstacles, I follow street rules, and behave like a car (or scooter, really). In downtown, I feel much safer on the sidewalk. In Highland I feel safe enough to ride on the street.

Sidewalks are far more dangerous than riding in the street? I seriously doubt this. If a cyclist slows down at street intersections (including alleys) they'll be fine. 9/10 times, I'd much rather go slow and mix with pedestrians than go fast and mix with cars.

[bunt_q]

And this brings us back to our discussion a few months ago, when I suggested some public education is needed. This is why I view bicyclists as a menace - because nobody has the slightest clue what the proper standards for bicycle conduct are. Even on this forum of generally like-minded pro-cycling folks, we have a range from Granny Dirt, poking along on the sidewalk killing pedestrians, to a-whole, who from the sounds of it, is a fearless aggressive cyclist - the type a driver finds to be a bit of an a-whole (haha). And everything in between.

I don't know who would do the public education campaign, the city, or maybe CDOT. Maybe tied to passage of a clearer bicycle traffic law, similar to the Idaho statute that was posted earlier, which I'd support. But today, chaos reigns, and that's no way to run a would-be legitimate, mainstream transportation mode alternative.

[awholeparade]

There definitely needs to be more, easily accessible information for cyclists. I know people that work for B-cycle and they tell people that they see renting bikes to not ride on the sidewalk. I occasionally tell people that they shouldn't be riding sidewalk, and sometimes, when they blow by me...i'm not so polite about it.

Dirt, the sidewalk riding issue is one of those laws that you don't really understand, until you've been ticketed, or worse...hit. Drivers pulling out of alleys are looking for objects/pedestrians/etc. that are moving at a typical walking pace, which is most likely much slower than the speed a bike will be traveling. Also, there's always the danger of being "right hooked", which is much less common if a driver sees you on the street. I think that it's actually legal to ride on the sidewalk if you go no faster than 3mph (average walking speed, right?), and basically act EXACTLY like a pedestrian, but at that point, you'll probably be walking next to your bike anyways.

In no way is this an official survey or anything, but it gives you the idea. Google the issue if you're curious.
http://www.commutebybike.com/2008/07...-the-sidewalk/

[The Dirt]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Granny Dirt, poking along on the sidewalk killing pedestrians

According to my wife, I'm always go too fast.

Originally Posted by awholeparade

There definitely needs to be more, easily accessible information for cyclists.

Yep. I've never been stopped, ticketed, let alone harassed by other cyclists. so how am I supposed to know? I'd love to see a single sign that says to stay off the sidewalks. The whole alleyway and right hook issues are easy to avoid by slowing down, paying attention, and stopping where pedestrians stop.

I'm really sick of the laws that just make things illegal because they're unsafe, when in reality, it's only unsafe when you're acting like a jackass. Sidewalks feed into paths, and paths feed into pedestrian bridges that have bike ramps, then back into sidewalks, and only on rare occasions, bike lanes. This gives me the impression that cyclists should intermingle with pedestrians, not cars. In the end, I'd rather get a ticket than get hit by a car.

[SnyderBock]

I agree, I rarely see any signs posting not to ride a bike on the sidewalks. And for the most part, it is safer for bikers to ride on sidewalks, instead of roads, with minimal risk elevation to pedestrians, compared to risk elevation of bikers riding on those dangerous roads.

Wider sidewalks and more independent bike lanes, are they way to go. On-street bike lanes are fine in some conditions, but typically should be buffered from lanes of flowing automobile traffic. Bikes are like a hybrid between pedestrian and motorist, thus should retain full allowance to move about the different modes of automobile/pedestrian/bike transit ROW.

Citing that once you've been in an accident with a bike and a person, ones opinion might change, is kind of like saying once you're in a car accident with a semi-truck, you'll also want to ban semi-trucks from our roads and construct special dedicated ROW for them to transport around.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

I agree, I rarely see any signs posting not to ride a bike on the sidewalks. And for the most part, it is safer for bikers to ride on sidewalks, instead of roads, with minimal risk elevation to pedestrians, compared to risk elevation of bikers riding on those dangerous roads.

Wider sidewalks and more independent bike lanes, are they way to go. On-street bike lanes are fine in some conditions, but typically should be buffered from lanes of flowing automobile traffic. Bikes are like a hybrid between pedestrian and motorist, thus should retain full allowance to move about the different modes of automobile/pedestrian/bike transit ROW.

Citing that once you've been in an accident with a bike and a person, ones opinion might change, is kind of like saying once you're in a car accident with a semi-truck, you'll also want to ban semi-trucks from our roads and construct special dedicated ROW for them to transport around.

This right here is the damned problem! Bicyclists want all of the advantages of being a vehicle while retaining all the advantages of being a pedestrian. In other words, they want it all. They never want to have to wait at a traffic light, they want all pedestrians and cars to give them lots of clearance, they want to be able to make left turns in the left turn lane on a street, but then cross traffic lights against traffic like a pedestrian.

This simply doesn't work. Either a bicyclist is a vehicle, or a bicyclist is a pedestrian. You can't have the law consider bicyclists to be essentially immune from any rules of the road/sidewalk.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[bunt_q]

Holy goodness, Aaron, they gave you a moderatorship? What's this world coming to?

After our discussions on taking lanes for streetcars on Colfax, I kinda figured that's how you'd feel about lawless bicyclists' demands for life, the universe, and everything, haha.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Holy goodness, Aaron, they gave you a moderatorship? What's this world coming to?

After our discussions on taking lanes for streetcars on Colfax, I kinda figured that's how you'd feel about lawless bicyclists' demands for life, the universe, and everything, haha.

Yeah, I was finally made a moderator... And just think, all this time I've spent on here wasting my life away in order to attain it! Hahahaha

But seriously, lawless bicyclists piss me the hell off, just as drivers running red lights, tailgating the hell out of others, etc., do. It's just that there are cops that at least occasionally ticket drivers, while it seems there is little to no enforcement for bicyclists.

For the record, I'm almost willing to change my mind as to the Colfax streetcar situation, with a few caveats of course. Maybe spending a weekend with Dan two weeks ago poisoned my mind?

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

And this brings us back to our discussion a few months ago, when I suggested some public education is needed.

Confident City Cycling Classes are a thing.

[awholeparade]

It would also be very helpful if drivers were aware of these laws, as well. Really tired of getting yelled at, chasing the car to the red light, and having to explain to them that it's actually ILLEGAL for me to be on the sidewalk (which is where they yell at me to be), but i still am usually told to fuck off.

[dmintz]

when bikers feel safe riding in the streets they tend to obey traffic laws. i saw this when I lived in NYC for 3 years during rapid expansion of buffered bike lanes and cycle tracks. there are still bike messengers riding like crazy, but more people feel comfortable riding in the street, stopping at lights, etc. in the current conditions in denver, the best a cyclist can do is protect themselves which leads to behavior like riding on sidewalks, running red lights to get ahead of traffic, etc. i am confident that if we provide more protected lanes for bikers to use their behavior will drastically improve. more separation equals less conflict.

This simply doesn't work. Either a bicyclist is a vehicle, or a bicyclist is a pedestrian. You can't have the law consider bicyclists to be essentially immune from any rules of the road/sidewalk.

a bicyclist is neither a vehicle nor a pedestrian. it is ridiculous for a bike to follow the same rules as cars which move 3 times as fast and weigh tons more. bikes should have their own rules which allow them to interact safely with both cars and pedestrians.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by dmintz

when bikers feel safe riding in the streets they tend to obey traffic laws. i saw this when I lived in NYC for 3 years during rapid expansion of buffered bike lanes and cycle tracks. there are still bike messengers riding like crazy, but more people feel comfortable riding in the street, stopping at lights, etc. in the current conditions in denver, the best a cyclist can do is protect themselves which leads to behavior like riding on sidewalks, running red lights to get ahead of traffic, etc. i am confident that if we provide more protected lanes for bikers to use their behavior will drastically improve. more separation equals less conflict.


a bicyclist is neither a vehicle nor a pedestrian. it is ridiculous for a bike to follow the same rules as cars which move 3 times as fast and weigh tons more. bikes should have their own rules which allow them to interact safely with both cars and pedestrians.

I don't believe for a minute your claim that the poor bicyclists simply MUST run red lights and do other illegal things because they are trying to get ahead of traffic, dmintz. This is patently ridiculous.

Yes, does there need to be an education campaign conducted for BOTH drivers and bicyclists? Absolutely! But to somehow explain away the abject stupidity of some bicyclists by saying they're feeling unsafe and are trying to stay ahead of traffic is just inane.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[awholeparade]

Originally Posted by dmintz

a bicyclist is neither a vehicle nor a pedestrian. it is ridiculous for a bike to follow the same rules as cars which move 3 times as fast and weigh tons more. bikes should have their own rules which allow them to interact safely with both cars and pedestrians.

Exactly. I don't expect everyone to see it this way, but i really do think that things will be changing in the near future. There are a number of states that are looking to adopt the Idaho Yield Law, which will be a great start for bikes getting their own personal laws, nationally.

[Cirrus]

Obviously bikes should obey the rules, and obviously rules should be adopted for bikes that make sense for them. For example, in many states it is legal for bikes to ride to the front of the queue at a red light.

And not to be a broken record, but if we're going to be talking about cyclists breaking the rules, let's all remember that every single person here has broken the law as a driver by going over the speed limit. Not that two wrongs make a right, but let's not be hypocrites and demand that 100% of cyclists obey 100% of the rules while giving drivers a pass to pick and choose at will.

I can abide a discussion of how to make the system work better for everyone, but it would be blatant hypocrisy to object to increased cycling because cyclists sometimes cut corners on the rules.