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  #321  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2016, 9:42 PM
Arm&Kedzie Arm&Kedzie is offline
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^ Ya thats a good point. I live and work in the area and I have been watching properties get gobbled up and developed heading south from Logan square on California, Sacramento, and Kedzie. While this has been through Puerto Rican and Hispanic neighborhoods primarily i'm starting to see it creep south into the African American neighborhoods especially around Chicago Ave. While the United Center and Ukrainian village are pushing things from the East. It will be interesting if the natural flow of development will hit the racial 'wall' your describing.
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  #322  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2016, 10:50 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
^ For some reason gentrification does not seem to be penetrating into the majority African American areas. Of course I'm not saying that this is a reason to not buy property, but your post seems to suggest an investment strategy.

Bronzeville is likely to prove an exception to that rule, over time
Lol @ pretending we don't all know why that is. The long standing racial divisions of this country have gone nowhere. That said I think these areas will redevelop eventually and anyone who bets on them will be rewarded handsomely.
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  #323  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2016, 11:46 PM
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ardecila ardecila is offline
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Lol @ pretending we don't all know why that is. The long standing racial divisions of this country have gone nowhere. That said I think these areas will redevelop eventually and anyone who bets on them will be rewarded handsomely.
There are major factors here beyond racism. Black neighborhoods are just decimated physically and have no retail, food, or entertainment options to speak of.

Nobody who has a choice will live in a place that looks like Dresden after WWII. My girlfriend just moved to East Garfield Park, but even she is disappointed at the total lack of shops and restaurants in the area (not to mention the lack of a Green Line station between Ashland and California).

Historically, Latino neighborhoods experienced a gradual transition from white ethnic to Latino, did not undergo massively destructive riots or arson, and Latino communities didn't experience the same barriers to credit so they were able to purchase properties and open businesses to keep commercial strips thriving. Unfortunately the very fact that these neighborhoods are still healthy and intact makes them prime candidates for gentrification as existing gentrified areas fail to accommodate new growth.
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  #324  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2016, 1:05 AM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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And what, other than systematic racism, resulted in the conditions you describe? Were those areas built that way?
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  #325  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2016, 1:23 AM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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^ I think his point is that presently, racism isn't the primary factor that is preventing such areas from gentrifying. The primary factor is the current state of their built environment, even though we all know that race issues are exactly how these areas got into such condition
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  #326  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2016, 2:51 AM
BrinChi BrinChi is offline
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^ I think his point is that presently, racism isn't the primary factor that is preventing such areas from gentrifying. The primary factor is the current state of their built environment, even though we all know that race issues are exactly how these areas got into such condition
Which varies from block-to-block. So isn't part of the solution getting a developer to start a critical mass in rebuilding the environment? There was already a ton of infill constructed in pockets of EGP during the 00's. Unfortunately residential rehabs are still just here and there, while new construction has lagged during this cycle. Not sure why when rents have definitely gone up. Developments like the Pete's Fresh make the area much more livable, even if it's not an ideal design from a walkable urban perspective. Everything else you need is still within a 15 minute drive, train ride, or bike ride -- no worse than living in any suburb plus 10 minutes from the CBD. But I actually prefer that more immigrant populations move in to diversify the 'hood at least in proportion to any white artists and yuppies. Thankfully, it seems to be slowly happening as immigrants get priced out from other areas. I regularly encounter Latinos, Asians, and Eastern Europeans that I don't recall seeing just a few years ago. My biggest hope is actually to simply get a good burrito joint I can walk to and then I'll be all set. The metro area really needs a development green belt until the South and West sides (and inner-ring suburbs) are fully rejuvenated.
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  #327  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2016, 3:55 AM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
^ I think his point is that presently, racism isn't the primary factor that is preventing such areas from gentrifying. The primary factor is the current state of their built environment, even though we all know that race issues are exactly how these areas got into such condition
I disagree. The current built environment is mostly vacant lots and very low land values. Exactly what any developer would be looking for. Except they can't build new units and sell them for a decent price when there are 50 shootings on the street every weekend. The shootings are due to gangs, which are due to the drug trade, which is due to a government created black market. This isn't a problem that economic forces can solve.
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  #328  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2016, 4:43 AM
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I disagree. The current built environment is mostly vacant lots and very low land values. Exactly what any developer would be looking for. Except they can't build new units and sell them for a decent price when there are 50 shootings on the street every weekend. The shootings are due to gangs, which are due to the drug trade, which is due to a government created black market. This isn't a problem that economic forces can solve.
This is empirically not true. Each of the community areas that make up Bronzeville (Douglas, Oakland, Grand Boulevard, Kenwood) currently have violent crime rates lower than or equivalent to Lakeview, Logan Square, or Near North Side. Even if you narrow it down to homicides, this still holds true. They're not Naperville, but they are very safe by Chicago standards.

Yet... where is the gentrification in those areas? Where is the long line of developers chasing "vacant lots and very low land values"? The low land values themselves reflect the fact that nobody wants to live there, except perhaps the African-Americans who are already part of those communities.

You can explain the lack of demand either through
A) a particular kind of selective racism targeted at African-Americans (but not Latinos), or
B) the fact that African-American neighborhoods are physically and economically devastated
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Last edited by ardecila; Sep 11, 2016 at 5:02 AM.
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  #329  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2016, 6:25 AM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Lol @ pretending we don't all know why that is. The long standing racial divisions of this country have gone nowhere. That said I think these areas will redevelop eventually and anyone who bets on them will be rewarded handsomely.
I personally think it's both racism in some cases, and not enough retail/commercial in other cases. I have a friend, non-white and not from the US, who lives in Chicago who literally told me when I was helping him find a new place a few years ago to stay away from predominantly African American areas even though his ex wife whom he had a kid with is African-Brazilian and I thought seemingly wasn't racist towards them (such a weird thing when he told me to find him a place not in any area like that). I think there's enough people in town and in America who for whatever reason have these same types of thoughts. I also think it has to do with the retail/commercial too. At least nowadays, a lot of gentrifiers are younger who want the restaurants/eateries. These exist in the areas we're speaking of no doubt, but the amount of them today is way lower in Chicago than say a decade ago. There's also some of these areas that have a lot of vacant lots and is most likely a lot less attractive than areas that aren't quite like that. Just my opinion though
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  #330  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2016, 11:29 AM
prelude91 prelude91 is offline
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
This is empirically not true. Each of the community areas that make up Bronzeville (Douglas, Oakland, Grand Boulevard, Kenwood) currently have violent crime rates lower than or equivalent to Lakeview, Logan Square, or Near North Side. Even if you narrow it down to homicides, this still holds true. They're not Naperville, but they are very safe by Chicago standards.

Yet... where is the gentrification in those areas? Where is the long line of developers chasing "vacant lots and very low land values"? The low land values themselves reflect the fact that nobody wants to live there, except perhaps the African-Americans who are already part of those communities.

You can explain the lack of demand either through
A) a particular kind of selective racism targeted at African-Americans (but not Latinos), or
B) the fact that African-American neighborhoods are physically and economically devastated
C) Most of the (White) Urban Pioneers/first wave gentrifiers, are not willing to live in 100% Black communities. The exception being areas like Cabrini that have the location and mass exodus going on...
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  #331  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2016, 1:22 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Thankfully, it seems to be slowly happening as immigrants get priced out from other areas. I regularly encounter Latinos, Asians, and Eastern Europeans that I don't recall seeing just a few years ago.
^ Wait a minute, huh?

Is there a palpable influx of immigrants in some of these black areas (?E. Garfield Park, etc)? Which area are you referring to?

Please share. My property investing side wants to know!
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  #332  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2016, 1:25 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
This is empirically not true. Each of the community areas that make up Bronzeville (Douglas, Oakland, Grand Boulevard, Kenwood) currently have violent crime rates lower than or equivalent to Lakeview, Logan Square, or Near North Side. Even if you narrow it down to homicides, this still holds true. They're not Naperville, but they are very safe by Chicago standards.

Yet... where is the gentrification in those areas? Where is the long line of developers chasing "vacant lots and very low land values"? The low land values themselves reflect the fact that nobody wants to live there, except perhaps the African-Americans who are already part of those communities.

You can explain the lack of demand either through
A) a particular kind of selective racism targeted at African-Americans (but not Latinos), or
B) the fact that African-American neighborhoods are physically and economically devastated
^ It's got to be B. I realize that there are still plenty of racists out there, but I honestly think that there are a lot of white or Asian millennials who are not racist enough that they would have no problem living in a majority black area provided 1) it is relatively safe and 2) there are plenty of things to walk to such as shops, restaurants, cafes, etc.

Bronzeville, Kenwood, etc have a beautiful housing stock but their commercial corridors are either nonexistent or just totally SUCK.
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  #333  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2016, 1:30 PM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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^ It's got to be B. I realize that there are still plenty of racists out there, but I honestly think that there are a lot of white or Asian millennials who are not racist enough that they would have no problem living in a majority black area provided 1) it is relatively safe and 2) there are plenty of things to walk to such as shops, restaurants, cafes, etc.

Bronzeville, Kenwood, etc have a beautiful housing stock but their commercial corridors are either nonexistent or just totally SUCK.
It's honestly both, but your (b) point is certainly a major reason too IMO. There are many people who simply don't care which area they're in as long as it has some kind of walkability and transit. For the people who are first wave gentrifiers (i.e. hipsters many times), the reality of safety doesn't matter to them nearly as much as someone who only moves to gentrified areas. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that sometimes first wave gentrifiers (i.e. hipsters) love to go to areas with an abundance of non-American food options - which is something areas like East Garfield Park, North Lawndale, West Garfield Park, etc doesn't really have apart from having blocks with too many vacant lots. In that world, being in an area with only Mexican food and only Spanish being spoken in is a lot sexier than an area with a bunch of American food. In all honesty, I'd bet a million dollars you'd see people trying to gentrify an area like Little Village way before an area like Washington Park due to that fact but also the fact that there's an abundance of buildings already.
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  #334  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2016, 2:08 PM
IrishIllini IrishIllini is offline
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^ It's got to be B. I realize that there are still plenty of racists out there, but I honestly think that there are a lot of white or Asian millennials who are not racist enough that they would have no problem living in a majority black area provided 1) it is relatively safe and 2) there are plenty of things to walk to such as shops, restaurants, cafes, etc.

Bronzeville, Kenwood, etc have a beautiful housing stock but their commercial corridors are either nonexistent or just totally SUCK.
Agree 100%

Would expanded to people of all ages.

Last edited by IrishIllini; Sep 11, 2016 at 2:24 PM.
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  #335  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2016, 4:29 PM
PKDickman PKDickman is offline
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Businesses are always the key.
Step #1 in the gentrification handbook is "Arrest Decay"
Step 1.a is promote and encourage businesses that attract newcomers to the area.

People don't choose a neighborhood because of the countertops or closet space, they choose it because there is something they want to be near. After all, walkability don't mean shit if there is nothing worth walking to.

Immigrant enclaves create these business organically to support their own culture.
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  #336  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2016, 5:42 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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I'd bet a million dollars you'd see people trying to gentrify an area like Little Village way before an area like Washington Park due to that fact but also the fact that there's an abundance of buildings already.
I'd bet a million dollars on this too lol.
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  #337  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2016, 5:43 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Agree 100%

Would expanded to people of all ages.
But black areas don't have these amenities after decades of the very issues I mentioned. Too many decades of neglect and unrest left these areas tired.
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  #338  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2016, 10:25 PM
BrinChi BrinChi is offline
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^ Wait a minute, huh?

Is there a palpable influx of immigrants in some of these black areas (?E. Garfield Park, etc)? Which area are you referring to?

Please share. My property investing side wants to know!

Yes. I don't have any numbers, but in the northeast part of EGP from California to Damen I'm noticing more diversity with each year that passes. I will be excited to see the next Census. If you're interested in property investing in the area please PM me because I'm also interested but unexperienced.
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  #339  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2016, 10:37 PM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
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I don't buy the racism argument either. Plenty of African American neighborhoods have seen their values rise in ny. Look at crown heights, bed stuy, etc. The difference is they're largely in tact from a commercial/residential standpoint and still vibrant in their own way. As others have said, while first wavers may worry less about safety if they can get a good price near other attractive options, no one wants to buy a home on a block that looks like it went through wwii. The turnaround time for a neighborhood is much more daunting when that exists. Someone can buy a home in Pilsen and say "well, even if I don't get rich off this its still a place I enjoy spending time". The same can't really be said for the worst hit areas of chicago. East garfield has been touted as the next it place for 30 years. You'd have a better return putting the money in a stock market index fund over the same period. And you wouldn't have to worry about pervasive violent crime and an absensce of basic necessities as part of your daily life either
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  #340  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2016, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by prelude91 View Post

[[You can explain the lack of demand either through]]
[[A) a particular kind of selective racism targeted at African-Americans (but not Latinos), or]]
[[B) the fact that African-American neighborhoods are physically and economically devastated
]]

C) Most of the (White) Urban Pioneers/first wave gentrifiers, are not willing to live in 100% Black communities. The exception being areas like Cabrini that have the location and mass exodus going on...
You're describing the symptom, not the problem. Why are urban pioneers unwilling to live in these areas? It's either because they're racist and "100% Black communities" are completely unappealing, or because in Chicago, "100% Black" happens to correlate with "bombed out, no businesses or services". I've already demonstrated that crime rates aren't holding black neighborhoods like Bronzeville or East Garfield back anymore.

You sorta answered the question by mentioning Cabrini. Cabrini itself (Sedgwick to the River/Halsted, Chicago to North) sorta fits the mold of a bombed out Black community, but it's within easy striking distance of healthy, growing areas that are chock-full of shopping and entertainment. Ergo: crazy growth on every parcel of land that isn't controlled by CHA.
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