Southern cities with a "big city" feel?

[KB0679]

Originally Posted by Crawford

So I don't wanna get a sidebar talk about Atlanta context, but that development absolutely does not remotely resemble its environment. It looks like a UFO landed.

The surrounding blocks look like a very modest small town somewhere in the Deep South. The new urbanist development looks like a faux Mid-Atlantic environment, like a Disney Baltimore.

I wasn't referring to the predominant housing type but the fact that Glenwood Park was built in the TND mold as opposed to something more overtly modern. Now if you want to criticize it on that basis, I suppose you could even though one of the goals was to get as much density out of the development as possible. But it's not like Glenwood Park went full-on Colonial or anything.

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by KB0679

To me, downtown Atlanta is easily the most traditionally urban and grittiest of the three

Agree to disagree.

and it already has a downtown pedestrian plaza that you wish Houston had.

.... what do you know of what I wish? That just comes off as insecure...

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by TexasPlaya

That seems more like the “TOD” movement that created small neighborhoods from scratch, it’s not just Atlanta. Some are faux historical and some are modern looking with lots of glass.

Originally Posted by KB0679

That's Glenwood Park, a New Urbanist infill development surrounded on three sides by late 19th century historic core neighborhoods. I'm not seeing the validity of your criticism as the architecture more or less takes its cues from its surroundings.

I'm not criticizing the design, I'm just noting that these sort of developments aren't that common outside of Atlanta. Usually it's just the same modernist styles everywhere, and even when there's nods to new traditionalism, they don't seek to "fool" you to the same degree. Maybe it should be more common to be honest - but I've only seen it in high degree in Atlanta. I mean here in Pittsburgh there's absolutely a lot of late 19th historic context to draw upon, but aside from a few cases in the North Side, no one tries to make the infill townhouses matchy-matchy.

Part of it I think comes down to southern construction costs being much lower, meaning it's cheaper to clad a residential building with brick on all sides, rather than use that godawful metal paneling. But that's not all of it.

My favorite Atlanta neighborhood is Cabbagetown, because it has a distinct vernacular, but it's not particularly urban.

[KB0679]

Originally Posted by TexasPlaya

Agree to disagree.

Is there anything in downtown Houston as urban and gritty as Fairlie-Poplar and Five Points?

.... what do you know of what I wish? That just comes off as insecure...

I honestly did not mean for that to come across in a snarky way. I simply interpreted your statement "It felt like we needed to close part of Main St like they do with 6th street Friday and Saturday to deal with the crowds" as a desire for a pedestrian mall in downtown Houston.

[KB0679]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I'm not criticizing the design, I'm just noting that these sort of developments aren't that common outside of Atlanta. Usually it's just the same modernist styles everywhere, and even when there's nods to new traditionalism, they don't seek to "fool" you to the same degree. Maybe it should be more common to be honest - but I've only seen it in high degree in Atlanta. I mean here in Pittsburgh there's absolutely a lot of late 19th historic context to draw upon, but aside from a few cases in the North Side, no one tries to make the infill townhouses matchy-matchy.

The only other similar development I can think of in Atlanta proper is Inman Park Village, another historic core neighborhood but the new traditional residential vernacular largely consists of rowhomes. There are some others in the suburbs with modern Town Centers such as downtown Woodstock and downtown Alpharetta; Serenbe is an exurban/rural-ish self-contained development but also more in the traditional mold. Suwanee and Sandy Springs are a bit more modern though.

My favorite Atlanta neighborhood is Cabbagetown, because it has a distinct vernacular, but it's not particularly urban.

Yeah it's pretty much the only historic mill village in the core of the city. Distinct for sure. I'm more partial to Old Fourth Ward and the Victorian neighborhoods (Grant Park, Inman Park) myself. And, although outlying, Vinings.

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by KB0679

Is there anything in downtown Houston as urban and gritty as Fairlie-Poplar and Five Points?

Market Square/Historic District which covers a lot of northern downtown or just the northern half in general.

I think the issue is that downtown Houston is just cut off from the rest of the inner core by freeways on all sides while DFW and ATL immediate cores solidified. It’s not a bad thing that ATL and DFW has more focused development, it just comes off as more planned/Disney than organic. Maybe ATL feels different now, it’s been about 4 years.

I honestly did not mean for that to come across in a snarky way. I simply interpreted your statement "It felt like we needed to close part of Main St like they do with 6th street Friday and Saturday to deal with the crowds" as a desire for a pedestrian mall in downtown Houston.

Both 6th and Main St in Austin and Houston respectively are still busy car corridors most of the time, especially the former. Downtown Houston finally got to a point where the crowds got big enough and centralized along the light rail corridor for about 6-8 blocks.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by pj3000

To me, "big city" vibes do not come from tall, glassy towers in the sunbelt. At least not the big city vibes I get from NYC, Chicago, Philly, Boston, DC, San Francisco, etc.

I get bigger city vibes from New Orleans than I do from Miami or from Dallas. Miami and Dallas seem more like big places than they do big cities. I guess being a bigger, urban city for a much longer time goes a long way for me.

I live in both Pittsburgh and Miami. Downtown Pittsburgh is 10x more vibrant/active than downtown Miami... still. And I don't consider downtown Pittsburgh to be anywhere near top-tier vibrancy.

i think if you had both the towers and the vibrancy in these southern cities the comparisons to those places would be a lot easier! as it is, it seems you have to pick one or the other.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by eschaton

One of the things I find strange about Atlanta is the degree to which it seems to build faux-historical areas like this. It's like it's somehow insecure about how little traditional urbanity it as, and wants to make up for it by building fake historic districts where there was nothing remotely historic to begin with.

at least it's well done in this example. i'd rather see well done faux-historical than shitty modern with bad proportions, of which there is plenty. (and i prefer modern styles myself typically) also - it's in the middle of intown atlanta, in between pre-war neighborhoods like grant park, cabbagetown, ormewood park and east atlanta village, so of course there's history there.

[edale]

Originally Posted by TexasPlaya

Market Square/Historic District which covers a lot of northern downtown or just the northern half in general.

I think the issue is that downtown Houston is just cut off from the rest of the inner core by freeways on all sides while DFW and ATL immediate cores solidified. It’s not a bad thing that ATL and DFW has more focused development, it just comes off as more planned/Disney than organic. Maybe ATL feels different now, it’s been about 4 years.

I've asked on SSP before to see just one pedestrian oriented commercial district outside of Downtown Houston, and have yet to see one. I've poked around Google Maps trying to find cool, walkable neighborhoods in Houston and have never found one. There are interesting residential areas, including areas that are gaining good density by replacing SFHs with townhomes and multi-family, but the commercial areas all look like suburban messes.

I can find multiple examples of urban commercial nodes in Atlanta and Dallas. Houston has a large downtown with some nice buildings, but that's not enough to overcome the fact that the rest of the city is completely autocentric.

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

^^ this photo illustrates the cut off to lower density

Aerial Cities Season 1 (2017) 4of6 Miami 24.mp4_000337348 by banjo seun, on Flickr

Little Havana is pretty vibrant to me, along with South Beach.

That low density cut off, despite it being no where comparable to the top 6 (NYC, Chicago, Philly, Boston, SF, DC), is probably the best continuous mass of urban density in the South. Atlanta doesn't have it and Houston and Dallas is too disconnected. New Orleans probably is a close 2nd but misses points due to decline.

If history ( and the future with sea level) had been different and more involved, Miami probably would have had very decent urban density and infrastructure. It would have been inbetween LA and SF in that sense.

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by edale

I've asked on SSP before to see just one pedestrian oriented commercial district outside of Downtown Houston, and have yet to see one. I've poked around Google Maps trying to find cool, walkable neighborhoods in Houston and have never found one. There are interesting residential areas, including areas that are gaining good density by replacing SFHs with townhomes and multi-family, but the commercial areas all look like suburban messes.

I can find multiple examples of urban commercial nodes in Atlanta and Dallas. Houston has a large downtown with some nice buildings, but that's not enough to overcome the fact that the rest of the city is completely autocentric.

Ok.... in my opinion ATL and DFW have better “urban” commercial nodes but Houston has the more eclectic neighborhoods.

This is like arguing who the tallest midget is.... Dallas, Houston, and ATL are in the same tier.

[NYbyWAYofGA]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Chicago and NYC aren't particularly similar, especially at street level.

I agree with you. Philly comes closest to New York as far as the vibe and walkability.

[KB0679]

Originally Posted by TexasPlaya

Market Square/Historic District which covers a lot of northern downtown or just the northern half in general.

I think the issue is that downtown Houston is just cut off from the rest of the inner core by freeways on all sides while DFW and ATL immediate cores solidified. It’s not a bad thing that ATL and DFW has more focused development, it just comes off as more planned/Disney than organic. Maybe ATL feels different now, it’s been about 4 years.

I can definitely see the historic aspect of Market Square but from what I can see on Streetview (which I'm aware isn't the same as experiencing a place firsthand), it doesn't come across as gritty or traditionally urban as Fairlie-Poplar which has a historic Northern urban aesthetic architecturally and with its tight grid and narrow streets. Five Points, South Downtown, and Sweet Auburn also seem as though they might be grittier.

Outside of the Centennial Olympic Park area of downtown, I don't really see where the Disney characterization applies. Most of Atlanta's new concentrated development within the core is in Midtown and I wouldn't use a Disney-esque descriptor for it either, outside of Atlantic Station anyway.

[Double L]

Originally Posted by KB0679

To me, downtown Atlanta is easily the most traditionally urban and grittiest of the three and it already has a downtown pedestrian plaza that you wish Houston had. But perhaps you are referring specifically to the Centennial Olympic Park area which is where many of the city's most popular tourist attractions, such as the World of Coca‑Cola, the Georgia Aquarium, the Center for Civil and Human Rights, the Atlanta Eye, CNN Center, the Children's Museum of Atlanta, and the College Football Hall of Fame, are concentrated. I can somewhat see the "Disney-ish" character there but that is only like one of five or so districts of downtown proper. The authenticity and historic character of Fairlie-Poplar, Five Points, South Downtown, the Government District, and Sweet Auburn more than make up for the Disneyfied part of downtown.

Houston has discovery green, which is a very successful downtown park. It is eight blocks big and attracts lots of visitors on the weekend. It has been very successful for downtown. About the centennial Olympic park area, although there is nothing in downtown Houston, the museum district, which is filled with many great museums and architecture in walking distance, is one light rail trip from Downtown. Just keeping the facts straight here.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by TexasPlaya

Ok.... in my opinion ATL and DFW have better “urban” commercial nodes but Houston has the more eclectic neighborhoods.

This is like arguing who the tallest midget is.... Dallas, Houston, and ATL are in the same tier.

i don't know enough about houston to be aware of which neighborhoods are eclectic, but i'd say atl has a good bit of that, certainly. (definitely more than dallas, where it seems to be concentrated to deep ellum, at least from what i saw while living there) one of the few things i especially like about here. cabbagetown, krog street, edgewood, castleberry hill, among others.

[NYbyWAYofGA]

Originally Posted by cabasse

i don't know enough about houston to be aware of which neighborhoods are eclectic, but i'd say atl has a good bit of that, certainly. (definitely more than dallas, where it seems to be concentrated to deep ellum, at least from what i saw while living there) one of the few things i especially like about here. cabbagetown, krog street, edgewood, castleberry hill, among others.

And this not even including Little Five Points, the Westside, or what the Summerhill area is becoming....

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by cabasse

i don't know enough about houston to be aware of which neighborhoods are eclectic, but i'd say atl has a good bit of that, certainly. (definitely more than dallas, where it seems to be concentrated to deep ellum, at least from what i saw while living there) one of the few things i especially like about here. cabbagetown, krog street, edgewood, castleberry hill, among others.

Never claimed DFW and ATL don't have any..... Just giving my opinion where I said those cities have better commercial nodes while Houston has more interesting neighborhoods.

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by KB0679

I can definitely see the historic aspect of Market Square but from what I can see on Streetview (which I'm aware isn't the same as experiencing a place firsthand), it doesn't come across as gritty or traditionally urban as Fairlie-Poplar which has a historic Northern urban aesthetic architecturally and with its tight grid and narrow streets. Five Points, South Downtown, and Sweet Auburn also seem as though they might be grittier.

It is the lack of traditional alleyways? This is subjective, I'm sorry if i think Houston out "grits" Atlanta which is more than just old buildings and alleyways....

Outside of the Centennial Olympic Park area of downtown, I don't really see where the Disney characterization applies. Most of Atlanta's new concentrated development within the core is in Midtown and I wouldn't use a Disney-esque descriptor for it either, outside of Atlantic Station anyway.

Sounds like we are going to have to agree to disagree again. I think you are too focused on downtown boundaries while I was also looking at how downtown interacts with its surroundings.

[KB0679]

Originally Posted by Double L

Houston has discovery green, which is a very successful downtown park. It is eight blocks big and attracts lots of visitors on the weekend. It has been very successful for downtown. About the centennial Olympic park area, although there is nothing in downtown Houston, the museum district, which is filled with many great museums and architecture in walking distance, is one light rail trip from Downtown. Just keeping the facts straight here.

I know about the Museum District, but you think it feels "Disney-ish"? That was the point of me mentioning the Centennial Olympic Park area in downtown Atlanta as it is a relatively new purpose-built tourist district that spans a couple of blocks. Houston's Museum District, by contrast, seems to have more of a cultured, classical aesthetic with a noticeable resemblance to the National Mall, particularly Hermann Park and its immediate surroundings.

[KB0679]

Originally Posted by TexasPlaya

It is the lack of traditional alleyways? This is subjective, I'm sorry if i think Houston out "grits" Atlanta which is more than just old buildings and alleyways....

I was only looking at downtowns proper and used Market Square as a point of comparison as you listed it as an example. Grit is just one of those things where you know it when you see it and I'd wager that not many people would say Market Square is grittier than Fairlie-Poplar, South Downtown, Sweet Auburn, etc.

Sounds like we are going to have to agree to disagree again. I think you are too focused on downtown boundaries while I was also looking at how downtown interacts with its surroundings.

Can you list some specific examples of the "Disneyfied" aspects of Atlanta's core (besides Atlantic Station and the COP area which I mentioned), including the ways downtown interacts with its surroundings?