Saskatoon Idea Exchange: Where do we grow from here?

[Wyku]

This is a great site about cycling in Copenhagen if anyone's interested: www.copenhagenize.com

I had to laugh at this post where he's talking about how people dress and the absurd "Rambo" outfit--that's what most people look like here cycling in the winter lol. I've even busted out the goggles just walking to work .

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2008/10...nderstood.html

[jas321]

Originally Posted by macca

It's not just about biking everywhere, like bike lanes on circle drive would fix the problem.

Biking from Stonebridge to downtown is an improvement over a car but doesn't change the fact that the density in Stonebridge is too low and there is no easy, non-vehicle access to basic services.

I get that people like 2500 sqft houses and big back yards.

I bet deep fried bacon tastes real good but it's probably not a good idea either.

I just bought a condo in Stonebridge recently and have been biking to the University the past week and I can't believe how terrible it is. My only routes to leave the area are Clarence or Preston. My condo is very close to Clarence so I took that route and was not impressed. I seemed way out of my element and dominated by vehicles while biking past the big box mall. The added lane of cars turning North on Clarence from the mall makes biking very challenging as I have to cut across that line to get to the far right. After 8th street, Clarence becomes two lanes and I constantly have vehicles right on my ass behind me. Generally, they pass me while in the same lane making it very dangerous, or they ride two feet behind my back wheel and proceed to honk, swear, or flip me off when they go by...and I'm supposed to be motivated to bike?

Lately, I have been taking Preston out of the neighbourhood. This route is a little bit longer for me as I have to go out of my way East, but Preston is pretty much only one lane so I can just stick close to the parked cars without feeling endangered. However, crossing the intersection of Preston and the freeway is ridiculous. Terrible planning with no regards for bicycling.

Oh, how I miss College Park and taking 14th Street...

[lbird]

Originally Posted by molasses

This argument always interests me. Unfortunately I couldn't make the talk last night (hopefully I'll make it to tonights), so I can't speak to what Jan said, but the argument against more public space, bike lanes & transit oriented planning due to a the cold months doesn't seem to make much sense to me. It seems like you are proposing to plan for 2-3 months of the year at the expense of the other 9 or 10 months of the year.

2-3 months!! November, December, January, February, March and April are almost always freezing and snowy. May is almost as impassible, with slush and cold making it unpleasant if not impossible, and there's often snow and cold in October as well. For reference, the civic summer pool season lasts from early June to late August.

Obviously everyone won't ride their bikes year around, but we still have more days that people can be outside and people do want to be outside in nice public spaces (look at the farmer's market...it fits with everything Jan Gehl suppors and it's a huge success, even in the winter) and even in the dead of winter, in the core neighbourhoods/downtown people still walk, even it's just a few blocks from the office to a restaurant etc, so having well designed pedestrian spaces that do have some protection for the weather would be a positive thing, which during the warm months will be used by everyone, because you will have people driving in from the suburbs to enjoy a day in a more urban environment (again look at the farmer's market).

I live in City Park and walk to my job downtown all year. Many times I am the only slogging through Kinsmen Park in January. Even downtown is dead in the middle of the day during the winter as most bring lunch or stay within a few blocks of their offices. Is it worth spending millions of dollars to make the commute of a few people slightly more convenient?

Wyku, what proposals of Jan's do you see as something that would be a negative development for Saskatoon? I think it doesn't have to be argued that people won't sit outside for coffee in mid-january (though I do have to say, I spent Christmas in Poland one year and we did sit outside on a heated patio in -20 on new years eve for some barbeque and beer...in the right place, with the right culture/design it can work), but of Jan's proposals, what would actually be something that wouldn't benefit Saskatoon for the majority of the year or maybe what would act as a barrier to whatever type of development you would like to see?

'Proposals' aren't free. The responsibility of the government and the electorate is to run the city in a sensible and cost effective manner. We can either develop a bike infrastructure that few will use for half of the year, or we can spend money giving rebates for better insulation in houses, building new schools or just not raising property taxes for once. I'm not against walking and biking (I do both myself) but I don't see the justification for massive public investment in forms of transportation that are obviously not well suited for this city or climate.

[lbird]

Originally Posted by molasses

ha! likely true...sometimes I just hope there is more to people arguments...

Frankly, the "walk/bike/Copenhagen" advocates are often very dogmatic and religious. I'm not an urban planning professional, but democracy and city planning, for me, is a utilitarian exercise: how to generate the most happiness for the most people. If some people like living in a condo downtown and walking everywhere, that's great. If some people like living in a 2000 sq. ft house in the suburbs and working on their garden and a classic car in a garage, that's great too. I believe the design of a city shouldn't about be a forcing an external ideology down the throat of its citizens, but adapting the structure to their wants and desires.

I think some posters on this board should walk through a suburb like Briarwood or Erindale on a sunny day. The parks and streets are full of kids, families, joggers, dog walkers and the like. In many ways the suburbs have a better community feel and dynamism l than many of the core neighbourhoods. It's true that a person living in that type of area has to drive to get to the Co-Op for groceries, but that doesn't negate the positive aspects of that living arrangment.

[Ruckus]

Some of you may be surprised how often Saskatoon hits -40, with or without windchill. I suspect many of you dismissing winter cycling don't get out much during the winter months, or take off to some place warm I don't commute via bicycle in the winter, but I do load my bike onto a rack, and pedal up and down the river trails, bridges, downtown, and anywhere else where the snow has been cleared (that is the downside to living in the burbs, no one clears the sidewalks, or side streets...treacherous at best). I bike for recreation, but I am still biking during all seasons. It is not as bad as some of you believe it to be.

I don't have the time right now, but when I get back from tonight's talk I'll search Environment Canada's archives and post the Saskatoon temperature data for all to see.

Beyond a certain distance (2,3,4,7 km?), the willingness to bike or walk to a destination will drop off sharply for most people. This is especially true during our winter months. However, for those who are able, and within a certain distance (there is data to support this...I will try and find something) of a particular destination, the willingness to travel via bicycle increases at a measurable rate.

No one expects suburbanites to navigate arterial roads to hit up downtown. But, if public transit had enough coverage and frequency (only possible with the right mix of land uses and densities), the people could bike for part of the trip, and hop onto a bus (future LRT). A multimodal transportation system is what Saskatoon should strive for. It is not a choice between walking and cycling, transit or automobile, it is more about the interaction of these different modes to achieve a desired level of efficiency.

Anyways...

[socialisthorde]

utilitarianism is also an ideology and one often used to justify free for all capitalism, whose advocates can also be very "religious". Our perceptions of what will make us happy are notoriously easy to manipulate and let's not kid ourselves, the current development models are designed to convince us that a lifestyle which suits corporations and developers (I don't hate either by the way, but I don't want them guiding social decisions) will make us happy. While it might be argued that the original impetus for suburban neighborhoods was our lust for our own little piece of eden, it was equally driven by developers who find it easier and much more profitable to dig up virgin land and build 500 of the same house on it. It is also an imense benefit for corporations like Walmart who get land cheap and can build their stores around their marketing plan rather than the needs of their customers. I would agree that it is not a planners job to ram an ideology down our throats, but it is their job to make it more possible for us to make informed decisions by suggesting and trying things that might be a little outside of tradition. Steps such as those advocated by Geil do not need to be ridiculously expensive and I would venture to guess that even his most extreme recomendations could be fulfilled for less than the cost of a south bridge. Cars cost society a lot.

for anyone who is interested. Check out this link for an example of how corporate interests can drive public planning:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_A...eetcar_scandal

Although I know it doesn't happen at this level now, there is every reason to believe it still happens at more subtle levels.

[lbird]

Originally Posted by socialisthorde

utilitarianism is also an ideology and one often used to justify free for all capitalism, whose advocates can also be very "religious". Our perceptions of what will make us happy are notoriously easy to manipulate and let's not kid ourselves, the current development models are designed to convince us that a lifestyle which suits corporations and developers (I don't hate either by the way, but I don't want them guiding social decisions) will make us happy.

I thought this would come up: the "false consciousness" argument, an old staple of Marxist thinking that holds that the proletariat are not aware of their true desires and needs, and have their thinking manipulated by societal power structures. My question for you, socialisthorde, is why you feel suburbanites are the ones with the "false consciousness", unaware of their real needs, and not core neighbourhood dwellers who are obsessed with high density living? After all, there are several objective reasons to prefer living in the suburbs: lower crime, more space, better schools, new and efficient construction, etc. It's quite easy to see rational reasons for living in a suburban area (as it is for a core area).

While it might be argued that the original impetus for suburban neighborhoods was our lust for our own little piece of eden, it was equally driven by developers who find it easier and much more profitable to dig up virgin land and build 500 of the same house on it. It is also an imense benefit for corporations like Walmart who get land cheap and can build their stores around their marketing plan rather than the needs of their customers.

Affordable housing and shopping are bad? If Wal-Mart isn't filling a need for people, why do they go there? Why is Mayfair Hardware on 33rd good and Home Depot on Circle bad? Home Depot has better prices, better selection, more parking and more specialized help. These are all rational reasons to go to Home Depot, much like there are many rational reasons to live in the suburbs. Who really has the false conciousness?

I would agree that it is not a planners job to ram an ideology down our throats, but it is their job to make it more possible for us to make informed decisions by suggesting and trying things that might be a little outside of tradition. Steps such as those advocated by Geil do not need to be ridiculously expensive and I would venture to guess that even his most extreme recomendations could be fulfilled for less than the cost of a south bridge. Cars cost society a lot.

I would agree with this (presenting options outside of tradition). I would also say that just because something is outside of tradition does not mean it is useful or valuable, as a general rule. It is completely acceptable to choose the mainstream choice. I work with an engineer who distrusts everything in the mainstream media but believes in every alternative health fad, wild conspiracy theory and alternative economic stance for the pure fact that they are not accepted by the establishment. You shouldn't throw away skepticism, empiricsm and pragmatism when confronted with strange or new ideas, rather, that is when those cognitive tools are most needed.

[Ruckus]

This data gives one a much better understanding of our winter temperatures. If anyone is curious about the hourly changes throughout a particular day, click the link below and choose hourly from the pull down menu, rather than daily.


Source

After seeing the data myself, I remain convinced that Saskatoon should put greater emphasis on winter cycling. For those that couldn't attend the talk, there was a strong focus on bike lane design. If the chosen design fails to address cyclist safety and comfort (e.g. Saskatoon style bike lanes), the increase in the share of commuter cyclists will be limited. As an alternative to the Saskatoon style lanes, Copenhagen style bike lanes provide greater safety and comfort for those who choose to cycle.

Hmmm, Third Avenue should become more like this...

Source

Instead of this...

Source

Separation of moving traffic and cyclists via parking lane.

Source

[Wyku]

I agree about the current bike lanes that have been "added". I walk beside them everyday and while they're a start, they're definetely not the safest thing in the world since cars pretty much treat them like another lane, especially when turning right. Although, if there were cyclists in them people might become more aware.

Any ideas on how our bridges could be adapted to accomodate dedicated, safe bike lanes?


Ruckus, did you look at this past winter's numbers? Yikes!

[drm310]

Dedicated bike lanes would be the ideal setup. The problem is that there's only a finite amount of street width to work with. Inevitably that means a reduction in the number of lanes for vehicle movement, or parking. Would Saskatoon residents accept sacrificing a lane on narrower streets for cyclists? Hard to say.

3rd Avenue's parking lanes are pretty wide, as are 1st Avenue's, so conceivably they could be narrowed and the extra room used for bikes only. However I don't think enough city streets are like that for it to be a widely deployed solution.

[prairieguy]

I confess that I am a recreational biker at best (although, I have recently invested in a 'commuter' bike, that I find much more comfortable and therefore more likely to use more often). My wife is a regular commuter via walking or biking to her place of employment downtown (about 50 min. walk and 20 min. ride). She chooses active transportation from May-October.

She chooses to make her way downtown via residential side streets because of the 'safety' issue on more major thorough fares. I think there is an opportunity for some major access roads into the downtown core to be more bike friendly (i.e. Victoria Ave - speaking of which, I have always thought this should be converted to a ped/walking bridge -; Broadway Ave; and perhaps Clarence Ave.)

I REALLY like the concept, once downtown, of having a bike lane between sidewalk and parked cars as demonstrated in the Copenhagen photo. This just makes so much sense, it seems to be a no-brainer! 4th and 3rd Ave are definitely wide enough to accommodate this, and since we are in the process of some street work here, let's take the opportunity to do something that has been proven to work!!!

And finally, although the 'bike season' for most may realistically only be 5 months of the year, that can still make a huge impact on carbon emissions and congestion due to traffic. Perhaps a more practical goal for our City (which already has the 2nd most bike commuters per capita in Canada!), is to be the most bike friendly city in spring/summer/fall

[Wyku]

Originally Posted by prairieguy

I confess that I am a recreational biker at best (although, I have recently invested in a 'commuter' bike, that I find much more comfortable and therefore more likely to use more often). My wife is a regular commuter via walking or biking to her place of employment downtown (about 50 min. walk and 20 min. ride). She chooses active transportation from May-October.

She chooses to make her way downtown via residential side streets because of the 'safety' issue on more major thorough fares. I think there is an opportunity for some major access roads into the downtown core to be more bike friendly (i.e. Victoria Ave - speaking of which, I have always thought this should be converted to a ped/walking bridge -; Broadway Ave; and perhaps Clarence Ave.)

I REALLY like the concept, once downtown, of having a bike lane between sidewalk and parked cars as demonstrated in the Copenhagen photo. This just makes so much sense, it seems to be a no-brainer! 4th and 3rd Ave are definitely wide enough to accommodate this, and since we are in the process of some street work here, let's take the opportunity to do something that has been proven to work!!!

And finally, although the 'bike season' for most may realistically only be 5 months of the year, that can still make a huge impact on carbon emissions and congestion due to traffic. Perhaps a more practical goal for our City (which already has the 2nd most bike commuters per capita in Canada!), is to be the most bike friendly city in spring/summer/fall

First point: They have added lanes on these streets (as well as on 24th), but they're between the traffic lanes and the parking lanes. It would definetely be better to have them between the parking lanes and the sidewalk, but obviously painting the little bike lane symbols on the road is a cheaper/quicker alternative. It will be interesting to see if they start making a move to the other method anytime soon.

Second point: I seem to recall this being brought up before, but I can't remember if there was a link to the source of this info? That's a pretty cool stat, but also kinda sad for Canada at the same time lol.

[amor de cosmos]

re: that jan gehl lecture:

'Reduce the asphalt,' Gehl says
Architect touts bike-friendly culture
By Jeanette Stewart, The StarPhoenix
September 2, 2009 8:23 AM

When it snows in Copenhagen, the bike lanes are first to be cleared. Then the sidewalks. If there is money left over, the roads are next.

While it may be a radical concept for a winter city such as Saskatoon, Danish architect Jan Gehl is in favour of transforming Saskatoon into a pedestrian-oriented, bike-friendly city.

"Reduce the asphalt in Saskatoon," he said to strong audience applause at his presentation Monday night.

"The traffic you have is a matter of how much asphalt you have," said Gehl, who in his four-decade career has studied and supported the transformation of Copenhagen into one of the most bike-friendly sustainable cities in the world.

The temporary bike racks outside Persephone Theatre were nearly full Monday and Tuesday nights as people from across Western Canada gathered to hear the world-renowned architect deliver two sold-out presentations.

Making car drivers "happy when they are driving and happy when they stop" has been the No. 1 priority in planning cities for years, Gehl said. The "car invasion" will get worse every year until something is done.

"If you invite more driving, you have more driving," he said.

A nearly $300-million project is underway to build Saskatoon's newest bridge, which will have six lanes and seven kilometres of connecting freeway. Three contractors are working on proposals for the project, with an expected completion date of Oct. 1, 2012.

Though the project seems to contradict Gehl's ideas, city Coun. Pat Lorje said the bridge will take traffic out of the downtown and get trucks out of the city's core.

Lorje said her e-mail and voice mail were full of messages from the public Tuesday, with many in favour of Gehl's ideas.

The councillor spent Tuesday on a cycling tour with the architect. One of his most striking suggestions was incorporating family housing downtown near the River Landing water park instead of the proposed high-end condominium development. Having families downtown would put "more eyes on the street" and better use the facilities the city has built, Lorje said.

During a question-and-answer period Monday, Gehl dismissed questions about how to plan around Saskatoon's harsh climate.

"I know you have a bad winter," Gehl said. "I do think you have many more good days than bad days."

"All of us need an attitude tune-up," said Lorje, who believes Gehl's message speaks to more than just bicycles and transit.

"Bicycles are the vehicles for his ideas. What I took away was the importance of making cities back into what they used to be, which is people places," Lorje said.

Public places enhance civic participation and improve quality of life, Gehl said. While it might be an option now, an impending energy crisis will force people to move closer together.

The ideas apply to all cities regardless of size, Gehl said. The urban design expert has worked as a consultant around the globe, in cities as small as Saskatoon and as big as New York City.

But he was asked how the attitudes of a "car-obsessed" population can be changed.

"They say that every place," Gehl said. "When you start to humanize the city, you hear no more.

"Even the businessmen can feel it in their turnover," he said. In Copenhagen, the number of sidewalk cafe seats has increased from zero to 7,000 in his time working there.

Copenhagen:
- Cyclists have special lights that turn green six seconds before traffic lights
- If cyclists travel 20 km/h, they hit a "green wave" and will not hit any red lights
- All taxi cabs must be equipped to carry two bicycles
- All trains must have space for bicycles and bicycle racks
- More cyclists enter the Copenhagen city centre every morning than cars
- Bicycle lanes can transport five times the number of people than car lanes
- Bike lanes are often placed on the inside of parked cars, with parked cars protecting cyclists

Saskatoon:
- This year, the city spent $30,000 painting bike lane signs on roads
- As of 2006, Saskatoon had the second-highest number of bicycle commuters per capita of any city in Canada
- $7 million in government funds will be dedicated to creating exclusive bicycle lanes, widening roads and accommodating bicycle lanes

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/travel...135/story.html

[socialisthorde]

I know that this has already gone way off topic, but I just wanted to respond briefly (as breifly as I am capable ) to you lbird. Clearly we are way too far apart philosophically to arive at any sort of agreement, but I do see threads of agreement.

To start with, my user name is chosen partly in irony, so don't let that make you think I am a socialist and most definately, I am not a Marxist. In fact I, like you would consider myself a pragmatist, and like you I don't buy into fads. However, dismissing my argument that opinions are shaped by the existing power structure as "Marxist", does not challenge its validity.

The idea that people like what is familiar (i.e. what they have grown up with and see regularly) is well demonstrated by research in the social sciences, and I beleive accepted as "common sense" by most people. Therefore, our "desires" are to some degree "shaped" by the environment. Those in power (would you deny that money brings power, even in a democracy?) have the ability to shape that environment more than those who have less power (e.g. bicycyle companies have less ability to shape public opinion than do car companies). Therefore, I believe that while we should not blindly trust the advice provided by bicycle advocates, we should consider that the balance is weighted in favour of oposing arguments (i.e. those of car advocates) and that we should at least give the cycling option a chance and see if public "desires" change accordingly. It doesn't need to be expensive or cause social upheaval. Just design one new neighborhood in a different way, slow down the building of box stores, provide some small incentives for local bussiness and put in a few cycle paths. If it doesn't prove successful, the civic economy will not colapse. If it does prove successful proceed.

Sorry to others for dragging this out. Maybe it would be better done in PM, lbird, if you so desire.

[Ruckus]

Both of you have valid concerns, and I feel the exchange between the two of you is an invaluable contribution to the discussion.

I would like everyone to know that I will eventually move most, if not all posts related or spurred by Gehl's visit to the thread "Saskatoon: Where do we grow from here?". The construction thread is too vast to search, better to have dedicated threads for the important issues of the day.

As you were...

[macca]

Socialisthorde has addressed this (and quite adequately, yet I feel compelled) but, entering into the debate and framing your argument in terms of a philosophical or ideological position only serve to obfuscate the heart of the matter.

Our living arrangment has a net negative effect on the environment. I mean environment in the holistic sense: the physical, the ecological, the social, etc.

Arguing in favour of the suburbs by saying they are populated with families and children at play is like claiming water is wet. The streets of our core neighbourhoods are equally filled with children; this doesn't reduce the problems associated with drugs, gangs, violence, poverty, etc.

The current typical living arrangment in N. American cities is a result of a number of things, including "ideology" in the form of public policy decisions. That these decisions were a result of governments responding to the desires of the populace is a debatable point, but I think it is agreeable to say that it was not the public's desire to have to drive to obtain any good or service that spurred our shift from human scale communities to motordom.

Motoring is a hobby. Restoring/building cars is a hobby. Commuting and driving to pick up a carton of milk are not part of this fun hobby. They are the byproducts of a living arrangment that proposed a solution to one problem and created an entire world of new ones.

The "problem" with early 20th century N. American cities was not that streets were pedestrian friendly and services were convenient to people's homes on foot, it was that without today's building codes and zoning bylaws traditional neighbourhoods were often dirty, dangerous, and unpleasant. No one wished for expressways, wider streets with faster traffic, or acres of parking lots rather than parks/quality buildings. People simply wanted a safe, comfortable place to raise their children.

The desire of the public was not for "motordom" as we know it today. However, to achieve the above stated goals (large houses, large lots, pseudo-private, exclusively residential communities), constant motoring was the result.

Any proposed attempt to maintain the existing suburban living arrangment is a commitment to also mainting motordom. It is akin to attemtping to 'clean up' the inner city but insisting that the gangs must remain.

[Ruckus]

Originally Posted by Wyku

I agree about the current bike lanes that have been "added". I walk beside them everyday and while they're a start, they're definetely not the safest thing in the world since cars pretty much treat them like another lane, especially when turning right. Although, if there were cyclists in them people might become more aware.

Any ideas on how our bridges could be adapted to accomodate dedicated, safe bike lanes?


Ruckus, did you look at this past winter's numbers? Yikes!

Of course I did. But, are you surprised how often we don't hit -40? And one must remember temperatures fluctuate throughout the day. A cyclist commuting to work or school will endure colder temperatures during the morning commute. In the afternoon, the sun is out, temperatures are up and cyclists will enjoy riding that much more (willingly). Another factor one must consider is the duration of the commute. What policies, or designs can the city adopt to make commuting for cyclists less time consuming and more comfortable. Jan Gehl said it best "we must invite pedestrians and cyclists...".

We should focus on the good days, not the 10-20 days of bitter cold temperatures.

As a closing thought, if the city refused to construct sidewalks for people, given the cost, and loss of driving lanes for cars, should we expect pedestrians to navigate between moving traffic on one side, and parked cars on the other? Under all weather conditions? No, of course not. Then why do we expect cyclists to endure such conditions? (no need to answer).

[acron]

Originally Posted by amor de cosmos

re: that jan gehl lecture:


http://www.thestarphoenix.com/travel...135/story.html

I got a kick out of this one...

"What I took away was the importance of making cities back into what they used to be, which is people places," Lorje said.

So now cities are being built for martians? Last I checked cities are still places where people live (and some rats if you're in Swift Current)... Did our former NDP MLA mean that we need more needle clinics at riverlanding?

I suppose every society has kooky people. But the great thing about the West is that our kooky people are funny, not scary. In other parts of the world kooky people blow themselves up or keep women in bee keeper suits. And our kooky people just say things like the quote above or they go on TV and acuse puppets on kids television shows of being gay because they are colored purple.. and everyone laughs!

[Ruckus]

Originally Posted by acron

I got a kick out of this one...

"What I took away was the importance of making cities back into what they used to be, which is people places," Lorje said.

So now cities are being built for martians? Last I checked cities are still places where people live (and some rats if you're in Swift Current)... Did our former NDP MLA mean that we need more needle clinics at riverlanding?

I suppose every society has kooky people. But the great thing about the West is that our kooky people are funny, not scary. In other parts of the world kooky people blow themselves up or keep women in bee keeper suits. And our kooky people just say things like the quote above or they go on TV and acuse puppets on kids television shows of being gay because they are colored purple.. and everyone laughs!

Wow...is that the best you could come up with, martians?

[Ruckus]

Are you against building our city for people, or are you more inclined to support further entrenchment of the automobile? Is that the difference between yourself and Lorje?