First Nations Issues

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by vid

I'm beginning a woodworking programme at Ontario Works on Monday. Of the 9 people that showed up on the orientation day, 6 were aboriginal (and 2 were woman) and they all seemed eager to take part. You're right about the isolation of reserves though: Ontario Works only offers this programme in the city. Residents of most remote First Nations communities can't access it as easily.



Aboriginals already have access to funds to get education almost for free. First Nations councils, such as Nishnawbe Aski Nation, have educational programmes. NAN operates Dennis Franklin Cromarty High School in Thunder Bay, which is owned and operated by and for aboriginal people, with an education geared to their culture. Confederation College has Negahneewin, basically an extension of DFC in a college environment. They main problems is accessibility -- like Ontario Works, they have to go to the city for these programmes and travel costs are expensive. Many aboriginal students stay at group homes while attending DFC, and in many cases it is the first time they've been in a large city. The culture shock is enormous and every year, about a dozen DFC students go missing.

There isn't much of a problem getting them to school, it's keeping them there. Many can't handle being in such a large city. They also need more guidance. They need adults in their life to make sure they're attending school and staying away from drugs and alcohol and other illegal activities. They need to know the benefits of going to school and the negatives of not going. Forcing them to go to school isn't going to do much, they need to learn how it will benefit them instead.

Also, fining aboriginals would be a double standard. We don't fine anyone else for not attending school. Why should we fine aboriginals? Fining one ethnic group because they aren't up to the educational standards of the majority is racism, even if you have a good intent. One would almost certainly not suggest this kind of thing if we were discussing black people. Fining aboriginals for not attending a post-secondary school isn't the answer. Enforcing truancy laws, something that all students under 16 (in Ontario) must comply with, would help, but again only with guidance. Continue that guidance to see them through to post-secondary education would have a much better result than putting a monetary fine on their heads -- especially since many aboriginals wouldn't be able to pay that fine anyway. A criminal record as a result of the fine would be a hindrance as well. That is something they do not need.

Vid; With your obvious talent I would think you should be involved in more of a computer based course.

[vid]

I've been in computer courses. The bore the hell out of me.

Besides, I need to work on my hands-on skills. It's an area in which I am lacking. (They also provide a free lunch. ) It's two days a week for fifteen weeks, and the stuff we build is going to charity.

BTW -- the white guys dropped out. I'm the only white person there. One of the natives is actually a Filipeno -- my bad. :\

[rrskylar]

A case of two wrongs make a right?



No easy fix to Dauphin Lake fishing dispute

By: Bill Redekop

DAUPHIN LAKE -- The young aboriginal woman holding a fishing rod spoke with a passion and conviction that would make any parent proud.

Never mind that she was telling me off. And never mind that other aboriginal people, including her parents, were leaning in trying to catch every word.


At issue was aboriginal people fishing in the pickerel spawning grounds that feed Dauphin Lake. It's an aboriginal treaty right to fish outside the sport fishing season, but if these fish aren't allowed to spawn, they will be wiped out.

On this night -- four days before the official sport fishing season -- about 25 aboriginal anglers are casting into the main pickerel spawning grounds on the Turtle River that feeds Dauphin Lake. One woman admitted she caught 25 pickerel in one day. She also admits to catching and keeping pre-spawn fish filled with hundreds of thousands of eggs.

Then the young woman mentioned above, who did not give her name, but whom someone called Stacey, stepped in.

"You wiped out our buffalo," she charged. "You took away our land. You'll never stop. You'll try to take everything. Now you're trying to take away our right to do a little bit of fishing."

She spoke faster than I could take notes. "We feed ourselves. We're not doing anything wrong." And: "There's millions and millions of fish. A few people catching for family use isn't going to hurt. People are trying to pin something on us, but they should take a look at the big picture."

But what if she's wrong? What if it is destroying the future fish population?

"You guys wiped out our buffalo. What goes around comes around," she said.

The annual spring spawning season for fish has become the unofficial aboriginal fishing season.

There are seven tributaries into Dauphin Lake. The fish leave Dauphin Lake and swim up the tributaries. The females dump their eggs, the males fertilize the eggs, and all head back to the lake. Aboriginal people dot the shoreline of the tributaries catching the fish before the official sport fishing season starts this weekend.

As Shane Lynxleg said, while fishing Valley River, another tributary into Dauphin Lake: "In another four days, the sport fishers will be everywhere."

How good is the fishing during spawning season? It's unbelievable. "Every cast," says one man from Pine Creek First Nation. That's at its peak, mind you, which was a couple of weeks ago. Two weeks ago, someone counted 57 aboriginal anglers at the Turtle River spawning pool.

Fishing is so good because fish are vulnerable at this stage in their life cycle. They're in clear, shallow water, and more than willing to bite the hook. That's why laws keep sport and commercial fishermen off the waters.

As one might well imagine, resentment is rising in the non-aboriginal population. Fishing has crashed on Dauphin Lake. Just sit in Sticky's Bait and Tackle Shop in Dauphin and hear the sob stories. "Sticky" is what everyone calls owner Don Stokotelny.

"Terrible. Brutal," said one man. "I went ice fishing 15 times this winter and got one keeper. It's just a disgrace."

But there's more to the issue than just fish stocks. This lake was dead 30 years ago. It took thousands of hours of volunteer work, and fundraising hundreds of thousands of dollars by the Intermountain Sport Fishing Enhancement group to bring the fish back. Volunteers built riffles so fish could spawn, shored up riverbanks, and stocked the lake annually with fry, which they still do. It's a massive lake, covering over 320 square kilometres.

So it's not just a resource the aboriginal fishermen are harvesting. It's also someone else's labour, part of the quotient in most resource matters.

The province isn't willing to concede yet that there's a correlation between falling fish stocks and aboriginal fishing. More population surveys are needed. Also, some anglers are comparing today to peak fishing seasons of 2004 and 2005, officials say.

Water Stewardship Minister Christine Melnick said there has been greater monitoring of aboriginal anglers this year, and conservation officers have been out talking to them and educating them. For example, when they catch pickerel during spawning season, they should press down on the belly. If eggs discharge, or a milky substance called milt, the fish hasn't spawned yet and should be thrown back.

Hunting and fishing rights are constitutionally-protected treaty rights for aboriginal people. There must be compelling conservation needs to infringe on treaty rights, as stated in the Supreme Court Sparrow decision of 1993.

Melnick maintained that sustainability of the fish supersedes all people's rights. If necessary, the province could issue a ban on fishing during spring spawning from March 31 until the start of the sport fishing season. She acknowledges that is a big step.

It certainly would be. Considering the depth of feeling on both sides of the issue, here's hoping something can be worked out. The problem is that aboriginal fishing during spawning season has taken on a life of its own.

bill.redekop@freepress.mb.ca

[socialisthorde]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

A case of two wrongs make a right?

Looks like inflamatory, alarmist journalism to me. Maybe there's a problem, maybe there's not, but the journalist carefully builds the readers' sense of panic to a crescendo, before letting us know that fisheries is investigating and that there are reasons to believe it is not as big a problem as "sticky" implies.

My argument all along has not been that we should be blind to these issues, but that we shouldn't react with panic and indignation as if they are something new or inherently related to First Nations. Does the reporter have any facts to back up the implication that the fish stocks are being decimated. No, just shocking third hand comments and unsubstantiated observations.

Repeated shallow analyses of the situation and weak evidence which support your case does not make that case any stronger. 15 of my aunts saying that they know for a fact that UFOs exist doesn't make UFOs any more real than if 1 aunt says so.

BTW, I am increasing my post count, and replying more quickly in order to lend my arguments greater credibility Is it helping?

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

A case of two wrongs make a right?



No easy fix to Dauphin Lake fishing dispute

By: Bill Redekop

DAUPHIN LAKE -- The young aboriginal woman holding a fishing rod spoke with a passion and conviction that would make any parent proud.

Never mind that she was telling me off. And never mind that other aboriginal people, including her parents, were leaning in trying to catch every word.


At issue was aboriginal people fishing in the pickerel spawning grounds that feed Dauphin Lake. It's an aboriginal treaty right to fish outside the sport fishing season, but if these fish aren't allowed to spawn, they will be wiped out.

On this night -- four days before the official sport fishing season -- about 25 aboriginal anglers are casting into the main pickerel spawning grounds on the Turtle River that feeds Dauphin Lake. One woman admitted she caught 25 pickerel in one day. She also admits to catching and keeping pre-spawn fish filled with hundreds of thousands of eggs.

Then the young woman mentioned above, who did not give her name, but whom someone called Stacey, stepped in.

"You wiped out our buffalo," she charged. "You took away our land. You'll never stop. You'll try to take everything. Now you're trying to take away our right to do a little bit of fishing."

She spoke faster than I could take notes. "We feed ourselves. We're not doing anything wrong." And: "There's millions and millions of fish. A few people catching for family use isn't going to hurt. People are trying to pin something on us, but they should take a look at the big picture."

But what if she's wrong? What if it is destroying the future fish population?

"You guys wiped out our buffalo. What goes around comes around," she said.

The annual spring spawning season for fish has become the unofficial aboriginal fishing season.

There are seven tributaries into Dauphin Lake. The fish leave Dauphin Lake and swim up the tributaries. The females dump their eggs, the males fertilize the eggs, and all head back to the lake. Aboriginal people dot the shoreline of the tributaries catching the fish before the official sport fishing season starts this weekend.

As Shane Lynxleg said, while fishing Valley River, another tributary into Dauphin Lake: "In another four days, the sport fishers will be everywhere."

How good is the fishing during spawning season? It's unbelievable. "Every cast," says one man from Pine Creek First Nation. That's at its peak, mind you, which was a couple of weeks ago. Two weeks ago, someone counted 57 aboriginal anglers at the Turtle River spawning pool.

Fishing is so good because fish are vulnerable at this stage in their life cycle. They're in clear, shallow water, and more than willing to bite the hook. That's why laws keep sport and commercial fishermen off the waters.

As one might well imagine, resentment is rising in the non-aboriginal population. Fishing has crashed on Dauphin Lake. Just sit in Sticky's Bait and Tackle Shop in Dauphin and hear the sob stories. "Sticky" is what everyone calls owner Don Stokotelny.

"Terrible. Brutal," said one man. "I went ice fishing 15 times this winter and got one keeper. It's just a disgrace."

But there's more to the issue than just fish stocks. This lake was dead 30 years ago. It took thousands of hours of volunteer work, and fundraising hundreds of thousands of dollars by the Intermountain Sport Fishing Enhancement group to bring the fish back. Volunteers built riffles so fish could spawn, shored up riverbanks, and stocked the lake annually with fry, which they still do. It's a massive lake, covering over 320 square kilometres.

So it's not just a resource the aboriginal fishermen are harvesting. It's also someone else's labour, part of the quotient in most resource matters.

The province isn't willing to concede yet that there's a correlation between falling fish stocks and aboriginal fishing. More population surveys are needed. Also, some anglers are comparing today to peak fishing seasons of 2004 and 2005, officials say.

Water Stewardship Minister Christine Melnick said there has been greater monitoring of aboriginal anglers this year, and conservation officers have been out talking to them and educating them. For example, when they catch pickerel during spawning season, they should press down on the belly. If eggs discharge, or a milky substance called milt, the fish hasn't spawned yet and should be thrown back.

Hunting and fishing rights are constitutionally-protected treaty rights for aboriginal people. There must be compelling conservation needs to infringe on treaty rights, as stated in the Supreme Court Sparrow decision of 1993.

Melnick maintained that sustainability of the fish supersedes all people's rights. If necessary, the province could issue a ban on fishing during spring spawning from March 31 until the start of the sport fishing season. She acknowledges that is a big step.

It certainly would be. Considering the depth of feeling on both sides of the issue, here's hoping something can be worked out. The problem is that aboriginal fishing during spawning season has taken on a life of its own.

bill.redekop@freepress.mb.ca

Aborigionals now appear to be less about maintaining their environment, and more about making $$$ at the expense OF the environment, just to stick it to the white man.

Its situations like this that reduce the credility of native issues and make me have next to no sympathy for the plight of the aborigional people in this country; they are just as selfish as everyone else.

[socialisthorde]

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

Aborigionals now appear to be less about maintaining their environment, and more about making $$$ at the expense OF the environment, just to stick it to the white man.

Its situations like this that reduce the credility of native issues and make me have next to no sympathy for the plight of the aborigional people in this country; they are just as selfish as everyone else.

Wow, is that all it takes to lose your sympathy? Clearly that article and many of the others are written with agenda of lessening sympathy for First Nations Issues, and I guess they are successful. Too bad that people aren't more critical of the media.

Just to clarify your argument, they don't deserve any sympathy because they are selfish just like the rest of us? I don't think they have ever made any claims based on being less selfish, or based on sympathy. Rather most of their claims are based on the undeniable fact that they have been screwed over. Justice does not require sympathy. The fact that they are no better or worse than the rest of us argues even more strongly that the way they were treated was unfair and has left them with imense obstacles to overcome.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by socialisthorde

Wow, is that all it takes to lose your sympathy? Clearly that article and many of the others are written with agenda of lessening sympathy for First Nations Issues, and I guess they are successful. Too bad that people aren't more critical of the media.

Just to clarify your argument, they don't deserve any sympathy because they are selfish just like the rest of us? I don't think they have ever made any claims based on being less selfish, or based on sympathy. Rather most of their claims are based on the undeniable fact that they have been screwed over. Justice does not require sympathy. The fact that they are no better or worse than the rest of us argues even more strongly that the way they were treated was unfair and has left them with imense obstacles to overcome.

Look, of course there is more to my opinion than this particular issue. I've had many experiences with aborigionals working up in northern Manitoba, living in Winnipeg and going to school in Lethbridge; and I have to say that what I have experienced more negative than positive. I can't tell you how many native students I've seen piss away their "free" education by not studying and wasting my taxpaying money. No, not all were this way, but unfortunately more than half were. Also it pisses me off how so many aborigional can claim they have spiritual connections to the land and treat it just as bad as non-aborigionals but yet expect everyone to believe otherwise. And I could go on and on, but I already have in other threads and don't feel like it anymore.

Bottom line, it's the 21 century and I have to look out for myself and my futur family. I'm tired of feeling sorry for others who have so many social programs at their disposal when I have worked my ass off my entire life to get to where I am right now without any handouts. And no, I don't expect anyone to sympathize with me (nor do I want anyone to) because I can get by just fine on my own thanks.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

Aborigionals now appear to be less about maintaining their environment, and more about making $$$ at the expense OF the environment, just to stick it to the white man.

Its situations like this that reduce the credility of native issues and make me have next to no sympathy for the plight of the aborigional people in this country; they are just as selfish as everyone else.

Again I have to draw your attention to a very controversial incident that is happening within 1000 kms of your home.

The six imprisoned baned members from Kitchenuhmaykoosib Inninuwug are imprisoned for preventing Platinex from carrying out prospecting and mining on land that they claim. They say they oppose it because the mine will not benefit their people (the land isn't theirs, they claim it; I think I said it was theirs in a previous explanation of the KI-6 situation, that was an error on my part. Sorry.) even though their community is the closest to that site. (The jobs will largely go to white people from the borderland and Southern Ontario) They also worry about the environmental impact that mining will have. While it isn't their land, they do use it for hunting. (Being so remote, the type of food we have here isn't as available to them and when it is available, comes at a high cost; The people living on remote reserves do indeed depend on hunting to feed themselves, whether or not they are illegally selling extras for profit.)

The bulk of Ontario's mining laws are from pre-1950s, and leave out almost all concerns relating to aboriginals. While most economic activity isn't allowed on land that is under dispute, this is not enforced. (See Caledonia; Portions of Thunder Bay south of the Kaministiquia River).

And speaking for Fort William First Nation, that community is becoming increasing environmentally conscious. A youth group (Anishnabeg of the Gitchi-Gaming) formed to inform the community of their responsibility to take care of their land, and has been quite successful. The new band council for FWFN is quite environmentally conscious, and even pays the city for public transit to serve the community of 900.

These are just two of the more notable examples out of many. To say that aboriginals don't care about protecting the environment is false. However, there are some aboriginals who do not care as much of the environment. That apathy is probably a by-product of their poverty, as the environment takes a back seat when you're living in overcrowded housing and your children are committing suicide.

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

Look, of course there is more to my opinion than this particular issue. I've had many experiences with aborigionals working up in northern Manitoba, living in Winnipeg and going to school in Lethbridge; and I have to say that what I have experienced more negative than positive.

And if you understood their situation, you would know why that is. It's a result of the poverty they experience, which is the result of how they were treated for the majority of Canada's history.

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

I can't tell you how many native students I've seen piss away their "free" education by not studying and wasting my taxpaying money.

If they're not studying, they aren't actually wasting any taxpaying money. The tax dollars only pay for their education when they attend the school. If they've dropped out, their funding stops.

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

No, not all were this way, but unfortunately more than half were.

So because of their actions, the almost-half should not receive any help?

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

Also it pisses me off how so many aborigional can claim they have spiritual connections to the land and treat it just as bad as non-aborigionals but yet expect everyone to believe otherwise.

Where do you think they learned those actions? What reason do you have to believe that all of them act that way? How do you know there aren't groups working to change that?

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by vid

Again I have to draw your attention to a very controversial incident that is happening within 1000 kms of your home.

The six imprisoned baned members from Kitchenuhmaykoosib Inninuwug are imprisoned for preventing Platinex from carrying out prospecting and mining on land that they claim. They say they oppose it because the mine will not benefit their people (the land isn't theirs, they claim it; I think I said it was theirs in a previous explanation of the KI-6 situation, that was an error on my part. Sorry.) even though their community is the closest to that site. (The jobs will largely go to white people from the borderland and Southern Ontario) They also worry about the environmental impact that mining will have. While it isn't their land, they do use it for hunting. (Being so remote, the type of food we have here isn't as available to them and when it is available, comes at a high cost; The people living on remote reserves do indeed depend on hunting to feed themselves, whether or not they are illegally selling extras for profit.)

The bulk of Ontario's mining laws are from pre-1950s, and leave out almost all concerns relating to aboriginals. While most economic activity isn't allowed on land that is under dispute, this is not enforced. (See Caledonia; Portions of Thunder Bay south of the Kaministiquia River).

And speaking for Fort William First Nation, that community is becoming increasing environmentally conscious. A youth group (Anishnabeg of the Gitchi-Gaming) formed to inform the community of their responsibility to take care of their land, and has been quite successful. The new band council for FWFN is quite environmentally conscious, and even pays the city for public transit to serve the community of 900.

These are just two of the more notable examples out of many. To say that aboriginals don't care about protecting the environment is false. However, there are some aboriginals who do not care as much of the environment. That apathy is probably a by-product of their poverty, as the environment takes a back seat when you're living in overcrowded housing and your children are committing suicide.



And if you understood their situation, you would know why that is. It's a result of the poverty they experience, which is the result of how they were treated for the majority of Canada's history.



If they're not studying, they aren't actually wasting any taxpaying money. The tax dollars only pay for their education when they attend the school. If they've dropped out, their funding stops.



So because of their actions, the almost-half should not receive any help?



Where do you think they learned those actions? What reason do you have to believe that all of them act that way? How do you know there aren't groups working to change that?

As I have stated before, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And now I am even more solidified in mine since Phil Fontaine claimed that the plight of aborigional people here is very similar to the people of Tibet. Really? Is the Canadian government going out to aborigional communities and shooting down their people in the middle of the street? Are the aborigional people declined the right to vote in provincial and federal elections? Maybe some of what is going on in Tibet happened to natives years ago, but for the most part no, it is not the same as what is going on in Tibet.

Sorry, I don't buy that.

Anyways, I've said my peace since this is an issue that will never be solved and no one will ever be happy, so let the debate continue folks!

[socialisthorde]

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

As I have stated before, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And now I am even more solidified in mine since Phil Fontaine claimed that the plight of aborigional people here is very similar to the people of Tibet. Really? Is the Canadian government going out to aborigional communities and shooting down their people in the middle of the street? Are the aborigional people declined the right to vote in provincial and federal elections? Maybe some of what is going on in Tibet happened to natives years ago, but for the most part no, it is not the same as what is going on in Tibet.

Sorry, I don't buy that.

Anyways, I've said my peace since this is an issue that will never be solved and no one will ever be happy, so let the debate continue folks!

Not sure about Vid, but my goal has never been to change your mind (It clearly is set in stone), but to challenge dissinformation which keeps being spread on threads such as this in order that people who are not as set in their opinions can develop reasoned ones. I think Vid did this very nicely and it is clear you don't have a logical response. In fact, you didn't respond to anything he said, unless you were thinking maybe he is Phil Fontaine Likewise the only responses I have gotten to reasoned arguments were attempts to dismiss my opinion based on labelling ("pc") and my limited number of posts. There, I have said my piece and I can be at peace.

[vid]

The plight of the aboriginal people is not similar to the plight of the people of Tibet unless you look at it from a sovereignty standpoint, however, the Dalai Lama and Phil Fontaine don't want the people they represent to be independent from the nation that are located is, they want them to be free and equal, with a degree of autonomy to allow their distinct societies to plan their own futures.

You can (mis)interpret that as you wish.

[ScrappyPeg]

There are likely a fair number of people in this country who have, at some point in time, empathized with the Aboriginal cause and then, after time - have begun to feel a wee bit bitter on the topic.

As an example - no one of my generation contributed directly to the historical mistreatment of the Aboriginal people - but we are the ones who have to pay for it (financially and otherwise).

If someone is asking for understanding, when it comes to the attitudes of the Aboriginal people resulting from past treatment - should they not also be willing to understand why bitterness has developed among some non Aboriginal people?

If an Aboriginal person yells 'You took our land, what goes around comes around!' it's justified, but if a non Aboriginal person yells 'Get off the road so I can get to my cottage!' they just don't understand history. That is one example where people may end up bitter.

[socialisthorde]

Originally Posted by ScrappyPeg

There are likely a fair number of people in this country who have, at some point in time, empathized with the Aboriginal cause and then, after time - have begun to feel a wee bit bitter on the topic.

As an example - no one of my generation contributed directly to the historical mistreatment of the Aboriginal people - but we are the ones who have to pay for it (financially and otherwise).

If someone is asking for understanding, when it comes to the attitudes of the Aboriginal people resulting from past treatment - should they not also be willing to understand why bitterness has developed among some non Aboriginal people?

If an Aboriginal person yells 'You took our land, what goes around comes around!' it's justified, but if a non Aboriginal person yells 'Get off the road so I can get to my cottage!' they just don't understand history. That is one example where people may end up bitter.

Sure, I understand that some white people have been treated like shit by First Nations, and I empathize with them as well, but I think that most conflicts arise because of entrenched opinions and an inability or unwillingness to see the other side. As I am non-First Nations, it is easy for me to see the non-First Nations perspective, but it is likely more important that I try to understand the First Nations persepctive. This does not mean capitulation when it comes time to make deals and I am not suggesting that FIrst Nations be given everything they want. However, demonizing them does not help and in fact helps their leaders to demonize us. If we come at this from a reasoned but compassionate and respectful perspective, and think about what we might do differently rather than telling them what they need to do differently. there is room for negotiation. Otherwise there is only room for name calling and road blockades. As I have said before, it strikes me that Vid has consistently presented a fair approach, aknowledging that no-one is without sin, but recognizing that some are disadvantaged due to the past and using that information to move forward. Feeling guilty or sorry for First Nations people does not accomplish anything, but aknowledging past wrongs may at least help us to move forward. While your generation and mine may not have contributed directly to what was done to first nations people, we have benefitted from it.

If your grandfather stole somebody's pocket watch (or cheated them out of it) and you inherrited that watch which had now become a valuable antique, would you not have some responsability to at least consider sharing your good fortune when it gets sold? Sure your grandpa is the one who took care of the watch and maybe even improved it by having it restored, and you were the one who took the initiative to check its value and auction it. Would you still not feel some responsability to the family of the original owner if you found out they were now destitute and that the loss of the watch might have contributed even if in some small way? Well you might say the current leader of that family had demonstrated some questionable behaviours and therefore I shouldn't help the family out. Pointing to the fact that he wastes his money is not an excuse for ignoring the plight of the family or arguing that they would be better off if they would pull themselves up by their bootstrings and take care of themselves.

WRT to the blockades and screaming about not getting to your cabin, I will refer to the title of a post above "do two wrongs make a right?". We can only take responsability for our own behaviour, claiming "he did it first" is not helpful from either side, but each side has to decide that for themselves. "When elephants fight, the grass gets trampled". As much as we may empathize with the grass, we need to focus on the elephants. Individuals are important in this, but it is a much bigger issue and not all individuals will see the benefits of the steps we will need to take to resolve it and some may even pay a greater proportion of the costs than others (e.g. land expropriation), but if that leads to resolution of the greater problem I think it is worthwhile. Greater society as much as possible has to spread the losses around (i.e. compensation for those experiencing expropriation), although I recognize that is not entirely possible in all cases. I would of course be bitter if I couldn't get to my cabin, but if it meant that something was improving and maybe one less First Nations kid is going die then I could probably get over it. That kind of broader analysis, laying out the long term consequences and historical reasons for particular actions, rather than trite little stories meant to encourage outrage, is what we should expect form the media. Of course that is harder to sell and less fun for the bitter to read.

[ScrappyPeg]

First of all - most Canadians ancestors were lured here with the promises of 'free' land only to show up and find out you have to work your ass off to end up just about as poor as you were before you came here. Just where in that should I feel any responsibility for what has happened to the Aboriginal population? My great grandparents came here poor and they worked hard and then died poor. Perhaps the Government of Canada owes all decendants of the immigrants from the late 1800's and early 1900's some compensation for misleading them as to the apparent life they'd get by coming to Canada. I feel no personal responsibility as I have not contributed to the past mistreatment of any Aboriginal people but I do have no choice but to foot the bill and that certainly may create some bitterness.

The problem seems to be the both the negative and positive stories in the media regarding Aboriginal issues do nothing but to polarize them from the rest of Canadian people. That, and the political correctness and double standard that exists.

If you keep saying 'Their situation' is 'special' or 'different' there will never be equality.

First Nations leaders of the past made some bonehead deals - including signing an agreement to have someone else take care of them for an eternity. First Nations leaders of today should start making some real decisions for their people, and not all should involve asking for more money.

[socialisthorde]

Originally Posted by ScrappyPeg

First of all - most Canadians ancestors were lured here with the promises of 'free' land only to show up and find out you have to work your ass off to end up just about as poor as you were before you came here. Just where in that should I feel any responsibility for what has happened to the Aboriginal population? My great grandparents came here poor and they worked hard and then died poor. Perhaps the Government of Canada owes all decendants of the immigrants from the late 1800's and early 1900's some compensation for misleading them as to the apparent life they'd get by coming to Canada. I feel no personal responsibility as I have not contributed to the past mistreatment of any Aboriginal people but I do have no choice but to foot the bill and that certainly may create some bitterness.

The problem seems to be the both the negative and positive stories in the media regarding Aboriginal issues do nothing but to polarize them from the rest of Canadian people. That, and the political correctness and double standard that exists.

If you keep saying 'Their situation' is 'special' or 'different' there will never be equality.

First Nations leaders of the past made some bonehead deals - including signing an agreement to have someone else take care of them for an eternity. First Nations leaders of today should start making some real decisions for their people, and not all should involve asking for more money.

Like I said, I am not trying to change your mind, I asimply responding to what you said so that it is not left unchallenged. Your experience is yours and clearly you are not open to changing your opinion. Your grandparents may have died poor and perhaps they were lied to, but that is a red herring. You are welcome to take up that cause if you wish, and if you provide a strong enough rationalle, I might even support it. However, what we are talking about is that you are part a rich society, who provided you free education, health care etc. and that wealth is based partly on land and resources, some of which were taken from First Nations. Part of the strategy for getting that land and resources was to decimate their culture (aculturate them). I'm not saying that all of our land is "stolen property" or that there were not EuroCanadians acting with good intentions, but if we look at the results it is clear that there has been significant damage done to First Nations as a group. Or do you look at their relative poverty, lack of education, higher incarceration etc. as simply a result of some genetic flaw? I guess the other alternative is that they somehow got into this state because we have been too soft on them until now and therefore need to toughen up. It would be hard to argue that, as most of the social programs intended to help First Nations have come fairly recently as compared to when the near collapse of their culture started. Is there some other understanding you have that leads to your conclusions?

In your insistance that we not recognize them as different, do you suggest that their situation as a group (not including outliers which will occur in any group comparison) is not different from that of other Canadians as a group, because I can provide many statistics to demonstrate otherwise. If you don't believe that statistics provide strong enough evidence, take a drive downtown and tell me what you see. Accepting that there are inherent differernces, between First Nations people and non-First Nations people, not necessarily in who they are, but in where they come from and how they are treated and where they are at this moment in time, is not unfair or unrealistic.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by socialisthorde

Like I said, I am not trying to change your mind, I asimply responding to what you said so that it is not left unchallenged. Your experience is yours and clearly you are not open to changing your opinion. Your grandparents may have died poor and perhaps they were lied to, but that is a red herring. You are welcome to take up that cause if you wish, and if you provide a strong enough rationalle, I might even support it. However, what we are talking about is that you are part a rich society, who provided you free education, health care etc. and that wealth is based partly on land and resources, some of which were taken from First Nations. Part of the strategy for getting that land and resources was to decimate their culture (aculturate them). I'm not saying that all of our land is "stolen property" or that there were not EuroCanadians acting with good intentions, but if we look at the results it is clear that there has been significant damage done to First Nations as a group. Or do you look at their relative poverty, lack of education, higher incarceration etc. as simply a result of some genetic flaw? I guess the other alternative is that they somehow got into this state because we have been too soft on them until now and therefore need to toughen up. It would be hard to argue that, as most of the social programs intended to help First Nations have come fairly recently as compared to when the near collapse of their culture started. Is there some other understanding you have that leads to your conclusions?

In your insistance that we not recognize them as different, do you suggest that their situation as a group (not including outliers which will occur in any group comparison) is not different from that of other Canadians as a group, because I can provide many statistics to demonstrate otherwise. If you don't believe that statistics provide strong enough evidence, take a drive downtown and tell me what you see. Accepting that there are inherent differernces, between First Nations people and non-First Nations people, not necessarily in who they are, but in where they come from and how they are treated and where they are at this moment in time, is not unfair or unrealistic.

A red herring? How? Based on race? Is this person's ancestors coming to this country on somewhat misleading pretenses any more of a "red herring" than this country's mismanagement of aborigional people? Absolutely not.

And as for our "free" education and health care, do we not pay taxes from our salaries to maintains these "free" services? Nothing is "free" for anyone, not even us "wealthy" nonaborigional folks who apparently have everything handed to us on a silver platter at no expense to us whatsoever

And are there also not cultural differences between European Nations, as well as Asians, Africans, Australians, etc. that also inhabit this country and have to adjust to life in the "Canadian" culture once they become residents? There are inherent "differences" between all cultures of this country and yes we should be respectful of this, but to a point. This is a "multicultural" country now, is it not? If you keep certain cultures segregated and giving them special status to the point where they are indeed at a higher level (natives, Quebecois, Metis, etc) than otherS, I would say that multiculturalism in this country does not work, and there will be consistent bickering between races.

[ScrappyPeg]

How have you determined what my apparent conclusions are, when it comes to the current situation of Aboriginal peoples? You are clearly making assumptions and bordering on accusatory.

You suggested that my ancestors are somehow responsible directly for the current situation regarding Aboriginal peoples - I flatly deny this. I tell you factual information on my heritage and you call it a red herring. You are simply dismissing all of my statements and then passing judgement on what you believe are my conclusions.

All I have said is that my ancestors who came here were poor, they lived poor and they died poor. Where do you read 'rich' into that statement?

I have made no argument stating the Aboriginal peoples have not been mistreated in the past - I have stated, factually, that my ancestors had played no role in it. You can bend and twist your argument however you like - I take no personal responsibility but only have to foot the bill.

By the way, in case you didn't know, not all Aboriginal people are useless drunks who waste away on the 'rez' and live in absolute poverty - I wonder why some of them flourish despite being dealt the same hand as others....Maybe that's the real question.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by ScrappyPeg

By the way, in case you didn't know, not all Aboriginal people are useless drunks who waste away on the 'rez' and live in absolute poverty - I wonder why some of them flourish despite being dealt the same hand as others....Maybe that's the real question.

EXACTLY!

[socialisthorde]

My god this is wandering all over the place. Let me clarify a few points and see if I can understand what it is we are arguing exactly.

Scrappy;
I called your statement a red herring because it was a distraction from the argument at hand. I made the argument that past mistreatment led to current deprivation and therefore the right to reparation. What I was saying in my red herring statement is that because your ancestors were mistreated, doesn't in any way alter my argument. In short, it doesn't mean that it is o.k. to ignore the mistreatment of others. I thought I was clear that I was not dismissing your or your family's struggles, but I aplogize if it was taken that way and I should try to more clear. In any case, I did not dismiss your statement, I simply pointed out that it does not discount or contradict my argument in any way.

As for the "silver platter", comment, you are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that. I said you received benefits you did not directly fund, just like I did and do now. I can make a few arguments based on the facts you provided to support that contention. You and I were not paying taxes as children and therefore our educations were paid for by others. Also, if your family was truly that poor (mine was), then they would not have been paying enough in taxes to fund your education (mine didn't) and health care. Please be clear, I am not saying that you did not deserve them, but simply that we all get things we did not pay for. BTW, I more than pay my share in taxes now and maybe you do too.

The other cultures of which you speak do also deserve respect. I'm not saying anyone does not deserve respect. What I am saying is that the First Nations cultures are the only ones which did not come here by choice and have nowhere else to go and they are the identifiable group who on average are suffering the most.

I never said you were rich, but I know for a fact that you are part of a "rich society" because you told me you are Canadian and Canada is a rich society. Note: I did not say you are part of a rich family.

I also never said that "all Aboriginal people are useless drunks who waste away on the 'rez' and live in absolute poverty". So please do not put obnoxious words in my mouth. I said that taken as a whole, First Nations people are doing worse than non First Nations people as a whole. I am not so stupid as to think there are no exceptions to this, and even if I were, I personally know many successful First Nations people. I also know that the odd person will survive or even thrive in the worst circumstances, but that doesn't mean those who don't should be expected to do the same. All non-aboriginals are not expected to become Bill Gates. If he did it why can't you or I? A lucky break? a good gene combination? who knows.

I don't think I ever accused you of denying past mistreatment, but if I did I apologize. So let me ask if this your position: you believe they were mistreated in the past but do not deserve "special status" because of it. Is that accurate?

Please don't . It makes me feel like I'm arguing with my wife

There is no need for this to be hostile and I hope I have not pushed it that way.

[SHOFEAR]

What I was saying in my red herring statement is that because your ancestors were mistreated, doesn't in any way alter my argument.

Mistreated (referring to being mislead into coming here) is only half of it. For many, they faced discrimination, just like natives today. Which makes it a worthwhile analogy.

The difference though, is that now these cultures are accepted as part of the landscape and we choose to become involved in them. Pretending were Irish or St Patty's day, going out for Chinese or Indian food, Edmonton's Heritage Day's is one of the most popular summer events etc. While Native culture is something not many of us choose to be involved in. Instead, it is forced fed to us during most public celebrations with public money.

So why have we accepted all sorts of cultures over the past few generations while natives made up little ground, if not fallen further behind?

Obviously it can't be linked to racism. Otherwise we would see no problem paying Chinese 25c a week to build railways or limit them to operating laundry mats, bringing ships loads of black people to work for us, etc. I don't buy for a second that somehow we are more or less accepting of just about everybody but have ganged up to stick it to the natives.